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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/15/2014 1:25:26 PM

Bhruic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

When I was young, my parents taught me to do all of the 'womanly' things that most males shun; like cooking, cleaning, needle craft, sewing, knitting, making clothes, laundry, housework etc etc. I didn't find it demeaning at all and I certainly valued their teachings as I got older and found my way into the big wide world where I had to fend for myself.

I have never viewed tasks as 'woman's work' or a man's job. That concept just didn't exist in my world.
So I don't look at the world as anything gender-specific other than women have tits and pussy whereas guys have dicks (and often behave like them too!).

And yet you did just identify those things as "womanly things"... and used them to illustrate your understanding of the traditional gender roles you have never followed. Your description of them is simplistic, but your position is admirable. I imagine most people still have to struggle to overcome ingrained and subconscious social programming.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am a champion of traditional gender roles, I am not.

I am merely asking; If a Dominant woman is attracted to a man who is demure, deferential and generally submissive in his day to day life, what is it about that dynamic that is attractive to her. It is not a dynamic I personally identify with, so I am naturally curious to know. I am sure there are some submissive men who would be curious to know also.

There is no stance on traditional gender roles inherent in that question, and any outrage at my presumption in asking it is misguided, and frankly seems, to me, a little telling.

Put the boot on the other foot - you will arrive at the same answer.
The gender is irrelevant.

So ask yourself -
If a Dominant man is attracted to a woman who is demure, deferential and generally submissive in her day to day life, what is it about that dynamic that is attractive to him.

Ok... wear naivité like a virtue.

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/15/2014 1:38:27 PM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
Ok... wear naivité like a virtue.

Not naive at all.

Everyone is individual.
What makes certain thoughts (apart from gender specific things like childbirth etc) whizz around in people's heads has very little, if anything, to do with their gender and certainly when it comes to subjects like BDSM and its many varieties, gender is irrelevant.
Maybe your redneck upbringing means you just can't see it.

I saw this cave-man attitude when I lived in the US for 8 months.... everywhere I went.
The men (generally) treated their wives and GF's like slaves.
Not one can I think of that didn't think it was their god-given right to sprawl out to watch a game and have them run around getting food and drink on demand whether they liked it or not.
I found their whole attitude to women to be demeaning, archaic, restrictive, and sometimes even barbaric.

It strikes me that you are one of those that think women shouldn't get into politics or serious issues because that's "men's" territory.

What utter bollocks!

ETA: Oh, and for your edification.... "It's pronounced "VROOick""
"How do you pronounce "Bhruic"? I looked around a bit and the best I can figure is it's pronounced "Brock"
Source: http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/topic38026.html

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 10/15/2014 1:50:38 PM >

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/15/2014 2:09:42 PM

Bhruic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
Ok... wear naivité like a virtue.

Not naive at all.

Everyone is individual.
What makes certain thoughts (apart from gender specific things like childbirth etc) whizz around in people's heads has very little, if anything, to do with their gender and certainly when it comes to subjects like BDSM and its many varieties, gender is irrelevant.
Maybe your redneck upbringing means you just can't see it.

I saw this cave-man attitude when I lived in the US for 8 months.... everywhere I went.
The men (generally) treated their wives and GF's like slaves.
Not one can I think of that didn't think it was their god-given right to sprawl out to watch a game and have them run around getting food and drink on demand whether they liked it or not.
I found their whole attitude to women to be demeaning, archaic, restrictive, and sometimes even barbaric.

It strikes me that you are one of those that think women shouldn't get into politics or serious issues because that's "men's" territory.

What utter bollocks!

Well... you may not subscribe to traditional gender roles, but you certainly seem comfortable jumping to uninformed conclusions. I did not jump to invent imaginary conclusions about who you are and how you were raised, and confined my comments to what you actually said. Perhaps because of the way *I* was raised.

I am Canadian... we don't typically teach redneck values up here.

While it is fashionable among the politically correct to pretend that there is absolutely no difference between the genders, I find I can't realistically agree. In fact, I think it dangerously naive.

Should there be a difference in the way the general population of men and women think? In an ideal world, No... but realistically there usually is. No matter how hard we try, and in spite of the fact that we may never act on it, it is virtually impossible to completely erase and/or be immune to the awareness of social pressures and indoctrinated modes of thought about gender roles. These negative pressures MUST be analyzed, contrasted and compared to the kind of relationships we prefer to have, if those relationships are to have a chance of success.

To simply ignore such historically pressing social realities is... well, ignorant. I wish you the best of luck with that approach though.

P.S. I find it AGAIN ironic that you choose to attack me be ascribing a traditional male gender role to me. Your lack of insight is breathtaking.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 10/15/2014 2:14:56 PM >

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/15/2014 2:17:40 PM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
To simply ignore such historically pressing social realities is... well, ignorant. I wish you the best of luck with that approach though.

And it has been proven, at least amongst those of a more 'modern' way of life, that those "historically pressing social realities" is indeed archaic and fundamentally wrong in today's modern society.
It has nothing to do with being 'Politically Correct' either.

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/15/2014 2:24:26 PM

Bhruic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
To simply ignore such historically pressing social realities is... well, ignorant. I wish you the best of luck with that approach though.

And it has been proven, at least amongst those of a more 'modern' way of life, that those "historically pressing social realities" is indeed archaic and fundamentally wrong in today's modern society.

I completely agree. It seems that no matter how many times I tell you that I am not a champion of traditional gender roles, you fail to comprehend. I had thought your stubbornly obtuse stance was in service to some agenda, but now I begin to think it is just what it is.

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/15/2014 2:31:25 PM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
To simply ignore such historically pressing social realities is... well, ignorant. I wish you the best of luck with that approach though.

And it has been proven, at least amongst those of a more 'modern' way of life, that those "historically pressing social realities" is indeed archaic and fundamentally wrong in today's modern society.

I completely agree. It seems that no matter how many times I tell you that I am not a champion of traditional gender roles, you fail to comprehend. I had thought your stubbornly obtuse stance was in service to some agenda, but now I begin to think it is just what it is.

And yet you are happy to state "While it is fashionable among the politically correct to pretend that there is absolutely no difference between the genders, I find I can't realistically agree. In fact, I think it dangerously naive".

You think I am on a PC soap-box. I'm not. It's how I was brought up.
You also stated that to ignore out-dated and archaic thinking is... ignorant. I don't.

I'm glad that you don't think you are a redneck, but many of your posts and [what appear to be] your attitude does seem to sail very close to that particular prevailing wind.

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/15/2014 2:32:52 PM

Bhruic

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Ok... enough. I am almost totally out of breath.

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/15/2014 5:13:01 PM

Bhruic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
ETA: Oh, and for your edification.... "It's pronounced "VROOick""
"How do you pronounce "Bhruic"? I looked around a bit and the best I can figure is it's pronounced "Brock"
Source: http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/topic38026.html

I missed this earlier. Thanks for your unnecessary link to someone's question on a forum. In the Gaelic language, the consonant combination Bh makes the sound "v". The slightest bit of intellectual conscientiousness would have quickly led you to the right answer. I'm sure you a a fine fellow, but I don't think I will be relying on you for any "edification".

Cheers.

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/15/2014 6:02:45 PM

FieryOpal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
<snip>
I know one couple where (on the outside), the man works and is a the bread-winner, but at home, she wears the trousers and is completely in charge.
That doesn't mean he is a house-husband or anything along those lines, but he is completely submissive at home, both inside and outside of the bedroom. And to anyone seeing the woman, she is a devoted and caring mother to their 2 kids and portrays the typical stay-at-home housewife.
His job isn't demanding either - so that has no bearing on the situation.

I treat the dynamic as a completely separate issue to typical gender roles.
When I was young, my parents taught me to do all of the 'womanly' things that most males shun; like cooking, cleaning, needle craft, sewing, knitting, making clothes, laundry, housework etc etc. I didn't find it demeaning at all and I certainly valued their teachings as I got older and found my way into the big wide world where I had to fend for myself.
I have never viewed tasks as 'woman's work' or a man's job. That concept just didn't exist in my world.
So I don't look at the world as anything gender-specific other than women have tits and pussy whereas guys have dicks (and often behave like them too!).

ETA: So it's no surprise that whether someone is dominant or submissive has nothing whatsoever to do with whether they are male or female or what they do in their employment or anything else in life.... at least to me.
I was "programmed" different by radical parents!

I have known many such couples, not just my relatives or in my immediate circle either. The aphorism "Happy Wife, Happy Life" plays out in many shapes and forms. What so-called traditional roles men and women have had has a [collective] public face and then a[n individualized] private face. Much of what gets touted is much different from what goes on behind the scenes, in all walks of life, I should add (except to those who get lazily spoonfed and don't think for themselves--garbage in, garbage out).

freedom, I think we all know what is meant by the old-fashioned term *women's* work and *men's* work.
Btw, do you have a single brother on the U.S. East Coast, perchance?

ETA: I would also be interested in hearing your earlier question get answered.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

If a Dominant man is attracted to a woman who is demure, deferential and generally submissive in her day to day life, what is it about that dynamic that is attractive to him.

< Message edited by FieryOpal -- 10/15/2014 6:06:59 PM >

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/17/2014 12:47:11 AM

Wickad

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(fast reply)

Just a quick note to let you know that 'up here in Canada' we do grow our own version of redneck. They come in many varieties and flavours.

Growing up in one of these households it was all but impossible to not be confronted with gender stereotypes. I learned early on to examine my actions and those around me with a critical eye. I have come to realize over the years that genderized work is only part of a patriarchal system if we allow it to be. When my male Dominant partner worked it did not seem fair that I wouldn't do more of the work around the home. At first I railed against this as I saw it as part of the subjugation of my gender and it was quite a twisting of perspective to just realize that he worked out of the home and I worked in the home - both of us worked. It would have been unfair to assign him cooking, cleaning, etc after he had put in a 10hr. day.

Since then we have both come to not be working and so we tend to split up the household chores more equitably. From the outside these chores may appear to be very gendered but in reality they are simply a division along tolerance lines. I am interested in food, nutrition, flavour, etc so I do the cooking. He enjoys using his body (and I don't bend as well as he does) so he does the yard maintenance and takes care of the car. It is not a case that either of us cannot do the others work, but rather that we have decided to divide the work based on tasks that we either have an interest in or that we find tolerable.

As to the question of a demure and deferential submissive man ... do you really mean grovelling and doormat? Quiet, demure men can be very attractive. The question is does he have a sense of self or is he just putting on an act because porn has taught him that submissive men are supposed to act this way.

I would like to add that suggesting that men who are demure and deferential are naturally submissive is complete crap.

What initially attracts me to a submissive man, or any man, is how he looks and how he carries himself. Once introductions have been made then I look for that quiet sense of self that exist at the core of his person. If he does not have that inner 'something' then there is no reason to move forward. Being a submissive man is hard and one has to have the fortitude to withstand the pressure that they will be subjected to.

Wickad

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/18/2014 6:06:01 PM

seekingOwnertoo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Capability.

There are the intangibles of course that just get into the mix: chemistry, lust, immediate attraction, whatever.

But what gains my attention and keeps me very excited and intrigued is capability and competence. In SOMETHING. If a man is good at something and he is proud, confident about it, that gets my juices going. This is why I always tell subs to drop the 'lowly' approach, to try not to be so much of a wallflower, and to refine their skills and hobbies and be proud of something. I think women in general are attracted to competence and capability - even if it comes in a package that is somewhat shy.

Akasha

Thank You AAkasha ...

Your point is one I have been thinking about ...

The issue in my mind:

How does one present himself as Competent and Capable ... yet still introduce himself as submissive?

In my mind, that is a contradiction that seems difficult to resolve?

Suggestions?

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/18/2014 6:22:41 PM

seekingOwnertoo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad

(fast reply)

I would like to add that suggesting that men who are demure and deferential are naturally submissive is complete crap.

What initially attracts me to a submissive man, or any man, is how he looks and how he carries himself.

Once introductions have been made then I look for that quiet sense of self that exist at the core of his person.

If he does not have that inner 'something' then there is no reason to move forward.

Being a submissive man is hard and one has to have the fortitude to withstand the pressure that they will be subjected to.

Wickad

Thank You, Wickad

LOL I was going to be very ... demure and deferential ... than it dawned on me the picture to the left would like ... be really incongruent. LOL

Yet how does one project themselves in an introduction via email?

I myself find it difficult ... and am wondering ...

In person ... You might think I read Your post in advance.

Please do share ..

< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 10/18/2014 6:23:49 PM >

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/18/2014 6:35:41 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
With regard to your definition of FLR... what of men who ARE naturally submissive. Who are deferential and not assertive in their dealings with the world. Would they be unappealing to women in a female led relationship?

When you say naturally submissive, I'm envisioning someone who does not have healthy boundaries. Who will submit to anyone, no matter what they promised the previous person.

I can't imagine anyone wants that in a partner.

Do you want that in yours? Or do you want her to reserve her submission only for you?

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/18/2014 8:56:08 PM

GoddessManko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
With regard to your definition of FLR... what of men who ARE naturally submissive. Who are deferential and not assertive in their dealings with the world. Would they be unappealing to women in a female led relationship?

When you say naturally submissive, I'm envisioning someone who does not have healthy boundaries. Who will submit to anyone, no matter what they promised the previous person.

I can't imagine anyone wants that in a partner.

Do you want that in yours? Or do you want her to reserve her submission only for you?

I disagree, men can be naturally submissive and yet selective to who they are submissive. Some do allow their submission to manifest in small ways but overall the ones who will "submit" to anyone anytime,are not really submitting, they are getting their itch scratched and I would classify as kinksters or subs in the midst of sub frenzy. Many vanilla relationships are female led, absent of kink.

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/18/2014 10:02:24 PM

FieryOpal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

With regard to your definition of FLR... what of men who ARE naturally submissive. Who are deferential and not assertive in their dealings with the world. Would they be unappealing to women in a female led relationship?

When you say naturally submissive, I'm envisioning someone who does not have healthy boundaries. Who will submit to anyone, no matter what they promised the previous person.

I can't imagine anyone wants that in a partner.

Do you want that in yours? Or do you want her to reserve her submission only for you?

I disagree, men can be naturally submissive and yet selective to who they are submissive. Some do allow their submission to manifest in small ways but overall the ones who will "submit" to anyone anytime,are not really submitting, they are getting their itch scratched and I would classify as kinksters or subs in the midst of sub frenzy. Many vanilla relationships are female led, absent of kink.

It actually sounds as if you are both agreeing to the same basic concept. A man with the capacity to fully submit to his Dominant would be innately submissive. The difference in my mind is that being "innately" or "naturally" submissive is not the same as being overtly submissive. That would come across as being timid and shy, and as Wickad noted, "suggesting that men who are demure and deferential are naturally submissive is complete crap." Some males have been raised to act gentlemanly and can artfully use subtle means of persuasion, and could even have more of a Dominant nature than a submissive one. Dominant /=domineering and aggressive; submissives can be assertive, ambitious and self-motivating (goal-oriented), those with healthy ego boundaries.

OP, just be yourself without trying to project a persona or suppressing your own personality to conform to an arbitrary image of what a submissive male is *supposed* to act like. This same principle applies to a Dominant personality equally.

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/19/2014 10:54:36 AM

Bhruic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad

As to the question of a demure and deferential submissive man ... do you really mean grovelling and doormat? Quiet, demure men can be very attractive. The question is does he have a sense of self or is he just putting on an act because porn has taught him that submissive men are supposed to act this way.

I would like to add that suggesting that men who are demure and deferential are naturally submissive is complete crap.

Wickad

No, I do not mean grovelling doormat. A man can be quiet, demure (or mysterious) and deferential without being submissive at all.

Some people's personalities are to be confident, aggressive, decisive and commanding, and other people's personalities are to be the opposite, and some people fall somewhere in between.

I was referring to men who are predominantly and outwardly opposite to a traditional male stereotype... and simply curious about the qualities of such a man that a dominant women finds attractive. I was not making any value judgement about the merits of such a man, whether they ought to be found attractive, or implying that there was anything wrong with such a personality.

Ironically, there seems to be some weird kind of backlash to my suggesting that any such men exist at all, and many replies seem to attempt to describe all men as somehow conforming to a traditional male stereotype, as if the kind of man I am describing is so repugnant to you, you don't want to even acknowledge the possibility that such a person could exist.

I have no bias, and no attachment to traditional ideas about gender roles... and yet the replies have steadfastly decided that I must have... and the most negative replies have actually tried to insult me by defining me with a negative gender stereotype while, ironically, claiming they do not adhere to such stereotypes.

A very odd thread indeed... that clearly has some deeply emotional subtext I have yet to divine.

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/19/2014 11:16:01 AM

Bhruic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
With regard to your definition of FLR... what of men who ARE naturally submissive. Who are deferential and not assertive in their dealings with the world. Would they be unappealing to women in a female led relationship?

When you say naturally submissive, I'm envisioning someone who does not have healthy boundaries. Who will submit to anyone, no matter what they promised the previous person.

I can't imagine anyone wants that in a partner.

Do you want that in yours? Or do you want her to reserve her submission only for you?

Well... I think there is a difference between how an individual interacts with the world, and how two people interact with each other.

Still... I think there are many people who dislike confrontation, and allow themselves to be taken advantage of in the work place, in society and in their interactions with other people... and if this makes them unhappy, then one might rightly describe them as having unhealthy boundaries.

Certainly, I would not be attracted to a submissive who was simply a will less automaton who followed any instruction from any source. My partner reserves her submission to me, or in accordance with my expectation.

In the context of my original question... My partner and I, while we are both very liberal and open minded, have a dynamic that - by accident of our genders - actually mimics traditional gender roles. Consequently, traditional gender roles rarely interfere with our dynamic, and we can borrow from those roles for our own amusement, while maintaining a liberal and open mind about the world at large.

While I entirely endorse that all people should be considered equal, it seems to me likely that Male dominant/female submissive dynamics are potentially less impacted by traditional ideas of gender roles than are, potentially, Female dominant/male submissive dynamics.

This just seems like an acknowledgement of reality to me, not an opinion. If there are people who disagree that that reality exists, then I have to admit we are living in two different worlds then... and in their world there is apparently no need whatsoever for the feminist movement.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 10/19/2014 11:17:23 AM >

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/19/2014 7:37:58 PM

GoddessManko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

This just seems like an acknowledgement of reality to me, not an opinion. If there are people who disagree that that reality exists, then I have to admit we are living in two different worlds then... and in their world there is apparently no need whatsoever for the feminist movement.

I think I may be misunderstanding you. The feminist movement is not due to necessarily how "society" or "men" treat or view women, it is about the systematic and legalized discrimination women have to face merely because of gender. I feel like you are missing a huge point here. What most people think and perceive should not matter, but humans are gregarious, they live for social acceptance to varying degrees for reasons such as such sustenance to validation.
You keep speaking about a "societal view" I do not feel connected to. Why? Because most brides are trying to get Amal Clooney's dress. For no other reason than celebrity. Humans have "human behaviors" which all of their intelligence does not hinder. It makes them predictable and most successful people know how to use that to their advantage, naught more.
I am not understanding your perception of the submissive man. Or maybe you are not necessarily speaking about submissive men but men Dominant, vanilla and submissive who are meager, unassertive, lack much muscle development etc. The beta male, so to speak. Some women who are alpha prefer alpha males or even alpha subs.
Forgive me but is what you ascertain to be "unsexy" a meager, timid man? Because a lot of the lunk heads in my gym are not my type either, not by a long shot. I like a man who is unassuming and self aware. He has a quiet sort of strength, he holds strong to his convictions. I really am not quite connecting the dots as to your disposition of the matter.

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RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/20/2014 9:13:15 AM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
While I entirely endorse that all people should be considered equal, it seems to me likely that Male dominant/female submissive dynamics are potentially less impacted by traditional ideas of gender roles than are, potentially, Female dominant/male submissive dynamics.

This just seems like an acknowledgement of reality to me, not an opinion. If there are people who disagree that that reality exists, then I have to admit we are living in two different worlds then... and in their world there is apparently no need whatsoever for the feminist movement.

I would say that there's probably a good deal of truth to this, at least in terms of how society relates to the traditional ideas of gender roles. I'm not sure how this fits in to the feminist movement, although through most of my life I've observed that we're in kind of a transitional period between the so-called "old order" and the "new." So, there's the traditional existing side by side with the non-traditional, and all the contradictions which go along with it.

I don't think there are any logical answers regarding how "society" looks at it, nor do I even consider that it should even matter from the individual's viewpoint.

(in reply to Bhruic)

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Post #: 39

RE: What makes You choose a sub? - 10/20/2014 11:19:09 AM

MsDDom

Posts: 368
Joined: 1/1/2009
From: GA
Status: offline

While I don't "go fishing", I think the topic is in line with anyone who desires a partner to spend time or life with. Whatever the desire in vanilla (companionship, etc.), such can be the parallel in BDSM or the lifestyle.

Entertaining someone's petition or desire to interact is just a step in realizing that like minded individual seek each other. If a submissive is mindful and has the heart (and guts) for real-time participation, then he has garnered my attention...at least for a moment. When the desire is mutual...we are both open to "having" each other.

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...:: MsDDom ::...

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(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

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Post #: 40