Should Subs Approach First? (Full Version)

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Code -> Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 4:55:07 PM)

I was just having this conversation with a new sub who was asking advice. I told her that there are two very good reasons why subs should always approach.

1) Qualified, experienced Doms nearly always have plenty of potential playmates. Although they might welcome new ones, or something more permanent, they have no need to approach someone who may or may not be interested. The old saying "all of the good ones are taken" is true, only with BDSM, that doesn't mean they're unavailable. The flip side of that is that any Dom that approaches - especially if it's aggressively - is probably not a qualified and experienced Dom.

2) The act of approaching can almost be considered a submissive act. If a Dom is trying to impress the sub, then the whole relationship is already started with the wrong power balance - even before they've spoken to each other. The more the Dom tries to impress the sub, the worse it gets. Then once it's on - both people have a hell of a project ahead of them to get things back to the way they should be. When the sub approaches, the power balance feels right from the start - to both parties.

I was wondering what the other side of this debate might be. Are there any good reasons why Doms should approach subs, other than "that's how vanilla people do it"? Are there any other reasons why subs should be the ones showing interest first?



DesFIP -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 5:08:40 PM)

Why should a dom approach first? To show that he's assertive, that he goes after what he wants, that he isn't afraid of rejection.

What works for you is great. That does not mean however, that it will work for everyone.

For subs who respond best to someone who is clear that he wants them, that he will possess them, him approaching demonstrates this.

In the end though, it doesn't matter who says hello first. Either you're both equally invested in the relationship or it doesn't make it.



SeekingTrinity -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 5:15:47 PM)

~FRing it~

My honest opinion?

Life is just too fuckng short to sit around waiting or fuss over who should make the first move. If you are interested in someone, sack up and say hello. Dom, sub....doesn't matter.

Why the heck does concepts like dominance or submission have to be assigned to something as trivial as saying hi?



FieryOpal -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 5:31:57 PM)

Just my 2 cents' worth. [sm=2cents.gif]

Until you have mutually consented to enter into a D/s dynamic, there is no D/s dynamic.
Subs are not submissive to every Dominant, only to his or her own Master or Mistress.
Dominants are not automatically entitled to be Dominant with every submissive. Only insecure 4sshat Dominants behave this way.

Therefore, until such time that both submissive and Dominant come under consideration with one another, real-world, vanilla social dating rules should apply and hold precedence. (subject to modification culturally & generationally)
Ideally, men are to conduct themselves like courteous, attentive gentlemen and not like horndawgs with the emotional maturity of a teenager.
A confident, self-assured man approaches, courts, woos and pursues the object/subject of his romantic interest.
If a woman wants to show interest in a man and encourage his (appropriate-to-the-situation) advances, there's nothing unladylike about that.
General Rule of Thumb for both parties: Establish a firm foundation of trust beforehand (developing a friendship first usually works); otherwise, you'll be left with a house of cards. Your choice.

OP, if you expect submissive females to come knocking at your door as if you are Gawd's Domliest Gift to Femsubs, then you might as well hang it up now. [8D]



stef -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 5:42:45 PM)

Whoever wants to approach first should approach first. There's a word for people who wait for someone else to make the first move, alone.



Gauge -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 6:09:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Code

1) Qualified, experienced Doms nearly always have plenty of potential playmates.



Qualified by whom exactly? As far as I am aware, there are plenty of single, experienced dominants that are looking for someone.

quote:

Although they might welcome new ones, or something more permanent, they have no need to approach someone who may or may not be interested.


Why shouldn't they approach someone if they are interested?

quote:

The old saying "all of the good ones are taken" is true, only with BDSM, that doesn't mean they're unavailable.


This might have some truth to it, but there are plenty of dominants that have spent many a day without a relationship. I spent a great deal of time alone before I found my slut.

quote:

The flip side of that is that any Dom that approaches - especially if it's aggressively - is probably not a qualified and experienced Dom.


Or they could be a fucking idiot.

quote:

The act of approaching can almost be considered a submissive act.


Bullshit. The act of approaching could also be interpreted as the dominant seeing something he wants and having the balls enough to pursue it.

quote:


If a Dom is trying to impress the sub, then the whole relationship is already started with the wrong power balance - even before they've spoken to each other.


How exactly are you supposed to impress someone without talking with them in this setting?

quote:

The more the Dom tries to impress the sub, the worse it gets. Then once it's on - both people have a hell of a project ahead of them to get things back to the way they should be. When the sub approaches, the power balance feels right from the start - to both parties.


This is a simple opinion on your part and that is all. It depends on your particular perspective on whether the act of approaching someone is submissive or not.

quote:

I was wondering what the other side of this debate might be. Are there any good reasons why Doms should approach subs, other than "that's how vanilla people do it"?


Because the dominant is interested in a submissive and the submissive they are interested in isn't likely to be a fucking mind reader. That's why.

quote:

Are there any other reasons why subs should be the ones showing interest first?


No.


Look, how you want to conduct yourself as a dominant is up to you, if it works for you, then it works for you. Frankly, I put away the childish bullshit of it mattering who makes the first move. You may only ever get one shot with someone, and you would be wise to take it when you can... BDSM dynamics be damned.



DarkSteven -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 6:22:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Code

I was just having this conversation with a new sub who was asking advice. I told her that there are two very good reasons why subs should always approach.

1) Qualified, experienced Doms nearly always have plenty of potential playmates. Although they might welcome new ones, or something more permanent, they have no need to approach someone who may or may not be interested. The old saying "all of the good ones are taken" is true, only with BDSM, that doesn't mean they're unavailable. The flip side of that is that any Dom that approaches - especially if it's aggressively - is probably not a qualified and experienced Dom.

2) The act of approaching can almost be considered a submissive act. If a Dom is trying to impress the sub, then the whole relationship is already started with the wrong power balance - even before they've spoken to each other. The more the Dom tries to impress the sub, the worse it gets. Then once it's on - both people have a hell of a project ahead of them to get things back to the way they should be. When the sub approaches, the power balance feels right from the start - to both parties.

I was wondering what the other side of this debate might be. Are there any good reasons why Doms should approach subs, other than "that's how vanilla people do it"? Are there any other reasons why subs should be the ones showing interest first?


1. You're kidding. If I want to play with someone, I approach her. It's not complicated. You're actually stating that I am not a qualified and experienced Dom because I have the cojones to ask for what I want? I've got about twelve years of experience, and there IS no qualifying exam to be a Dom.

Have you ever hard of the distinction between quality and quantity? Your contention that I should have all the subs I want as play partners ignores the fact that subs are NOT interchangeable units. I may wish to play with some, and not play with others. if I sit back and passively twiddle my thumbs and hope that God will make the proper selections for me, how does that make me Dominant?

2. I don't feel I need to impress a sub, except through my actions and words. And being too reticent to approach someone isn't how I choose to impress anyone.



Greta75 -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 8:31:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Code
I was wondering what the other side of this debate might be. Are there any good reasons why Doms should approach subs, other than "that's how vanilla people do it"? Are there any other reasons why subs should be the ones showing interest first?

I am probably not gonna feel very submissive towards a dom if I was the one who chase him first. I have no problem chasing a man, making first move, be the one asking him out and I know how to chase a man. Most of the men I have been with long term, I made the first move. But because my vanilla personality is very very dominant, I can easily take over control and manipulate the situation to suit me.

If a dom allows me to do that with him, then..., his not dom enough to dom me, we are better off as just friends.

I want someone to take over control from me. And it starts with him being assertive and knowing what he wants and just go get what he wants.

When I was a teen, I relentless go after men I like, until they finally asked me to their girlfriends, but what I find is, after I have succeeded, I lose interest in the guy, because he made me chase him. And it sucks.



Code -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 8:33:38 PM)

I appreciate all of the unsolicited advice on how to conduct myself, but I really wasn't asking for any. I also apologize to any of the Doms who took any of my statements personally. That was not my intention. The question was posed as being in the context of advice to give a sub, or subs in general.

I've noticed that a lot of subs tend to expect that Doms will make the first move - obviously for the "To show that he's assertive" reasoning above. However in practice, those same subs always complain about all of the assertive idiots that keep accosting them, asking "Why don't the good ones ever introduce themselves". I have always tended to encourage them to make the first move if they are interested, for the reasons that I originally stated. To try to steer this back on topic, let me restate the original questions in a less open ended way.

- What are the reasons, if any, why a sub should NOT be encouraged to make their presence known to a Dominant that he or she is interested in, if that Dom is not yet aware of them?

- Are there any other solid, logical, and explainable reasons why he or she should be encouraged to do so, beyond "not doing it is silly?"



shiftyw -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 8:38:23 PM)

Either way for me.

And I don't care how experienced he is? Current man had no experience, and we're happy, and he D's me just fine.



sexyred1 -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 8:43:55 PM)

I am a very assertive woman in my daily life and a sub in private with one partner.

Whether or not I was seeking a Dom or vanilla guy, I will flirt in real life, but I never approach anyone first online.

I like a man who chooses to pursue me. If he does not approach me, it's his loss.

I have more respect for a man who goes after what he wants than one who won't because of arrogance or some misplaced protocol bullshit.

As for being a "qualified" Dom? Let us subs decide that individually. One size does not fit all.



DarkSteven -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 9:05:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Code

I appreciate all of the unsolicited advice on how to conduct myself, but I really wasn't asking for any. I also apologize to any of the Doms who took any of my statements personally. That was not my intention. The question was posed as being in the context of advice to give a sub, or subs in general.



You post, you get advice, solicited or not.

My advice to subs, and anyone else, about play requests or anything else is, "if you want it, ask for it."



Code -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 9:16:06 PM)

quote:


My advice to subs, and anyone else, about play requests or anything else is, "if you want it, ask for it."


Again, subs often have this ingrained idea that they're not allowed, or they "shouldn't". What argument would you use to explain why it's better, why it's ok, or why they're allowed. Telling them to do it is one thing. Helping them understand it, is better - especially if it's not your own subs you're advising.



FieryOpal -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/29/2014 10:38:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
<snip>
When I was a teen, I relentless go after men I like, until they finally asked me to their girlfriends, but what I find is, after I have succeeded, I lose interest in the guy, because he made me chase him. And it sucks.

Greta, I feel the same way that you do. I can be pretty relentless myself. What I found early on, is that the same insecurities that a male has with approaching females, are the same character flaws which carry over into all aspects of his life. Fear of rejection, so he ends up becoming an underachiever. Lack of assertiveness which holds him back from exploring his potentials and life prospects. Instead of taking calculated risks, he always plays it safe within the domain of his left-brain reasoning, and then has a severely curtailed imagination. I need an imaginative, romantically ardent lover, not some fool who's going to wait for me to initiate every move. [8|]

What I think most of us are fully aware of is that women tend to need to be warmed up, whether it's with mental foreplay or physical foreplay. Men are like matchsticks, quick to light up and often quick to burn out. Women are like a smoldering flame, and once our fires are lit, we can radiate warmth for hours on end. This is yet another crucial step in setting the stage for romance that some men are quick and eager to want to bypass, to skip foreplay and dive right into their own ego gratification and sexual gratification. They can only get away with this if we (women) allow them to take shortcuts. It's the difference between having a fast-food drive-thru quickie, fast-food eat-in fucking, or choosing the dine-in lovemaking experience where you savor each morsel of food and leave hours later fully satiated, wanting to return again and again for more of the same. Sure, sometimes you can use a quickie, there are times when you might just want to fuck, but which do you truly want if there were no time constraints or limitations? Take your pick.



DarkSteven -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/30/2014 12:04:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Code

quote:


My advice to subs, and anyone else, about play requests or anything else is, "if you want it, ask for it."


Again, subs often have this ingrained idea that they're not allowed, or they "shouldn't". What argument would you use to explain why it's better, why it's ok, or why they're allowed. Telling them to do it is one thing. Helping them understand it, is better - especially if it's not your own subs you're advising.



They shouldn't be thinking/acting as subs. Being a sub is defined by a relationship, not a person. Thus a man or woman can be accomplished and aggressive at their job, and yet yield in their Dom/sub relationship. Until they have a Dom/me, a sub isn't required to submit to anyone.



SweetnStormySub -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/30/2014 5:48:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


quote:

ORIGINAL: Code

quote:


My advice to subs, and anyone else, about play requests or anything else is, "if you want it, ask for it."


Again, subs often have this ingrained idea that they're not allowed, or they "shouldn't". What argument would you use to explain why it's better, why it's ok, or why they're allowed. Telling them to do it is one thing. Helping them understand it, is better - especially if it's not your own subs you're advising.



They shouldn't be thinking/acting as subs. Being a sub is defined by a relationship, not a person. Thus a man or woman can be accomplished and aggressive at their job, and yet yield in their Dom/sub relationship. Until they have a Dom/me, a sub isn't required to submit to anyone.


Maybe he's a newbie??



littleladybug -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/30/2014 7:38:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Code


I've noticed that a lot of subs tend to expect that Doms will make the first move - obviously for the "To show that he's assertive" reasoning above. However in practice, those same subs always complain about all of the assertive idiots that keep accosting them, asking "Why don't the good ones ever introduce themselves". I have always tended to encourage them to make the first move if they are interested, for the reasons that I originally stated. To try to steer this back on topic, let me restate the original questions in a less open ended way.

- What are the reasons, if any, why a sub should NOT be encouraged to make their presence known to a Dominant that he or she is interested in, if that Dom is not yet aware of them?

- Are there any other solid, logical, and explainable reasons why he or she should be encouraged to do so, beyond "not doing it is silly?"



Personally, I've never had a problem letting him make the first move. The good ones do introduce themselves...you just have to sift through a lot of crap in order to appreciate it.

In terms of "qualified and experienced" Doms not having to make a move. That's true...no one does actually. For me, I don't look at it as a "competition" with umpteen other subs. I never enter into or stay in a relationship where there there is a fear or threat that he could "be with anyone of a number of other people". You don't want to be with me? That's cool. Moving on. It's a self-confidence that people I have been with seem to appreciate....

My suggestion to anyone is to do what you are comfortable with. If you see someone you are interested in, by all means make a move. But, I would *highly* suggest doing it because *you* want to, not because of some made up "protocol" concerning Doms and subs.




HalifaxSubRuthD -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/30/2014 7:50:48 AM)

Assertiveness is not a bad thing in a person.



catize -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/30/2014 8:16:42 AM)

12 years and you haven't taken the oral exam???? [:D]



RockaRolla -> RE: Should Subs Approach First? (10/30/2014 10:20:57 AM)

I'm admittedly terrible at making the first move. Recently I've come to realize that most of my relationships - platonic, romantic, or sexual - have been initiated by the other person. Letting people come to me is a habit I feel I should break at some point, because even if it's served me well so far I do believe it's best for people to go for what they want, but anxiety too often gets the best of me.

I don't think that making the first move is or should be the exclusive domain of doms or subs. You could make a case for either side of the slash. And if you don't fall into a strict Dom/sub dynamic those lines are further blurred. Should a switch approach a prospective partner? Why the hell not?



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