RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (Full Version)

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Lucylastic -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 5:23:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/390893/james-okeefe-strikes-again-john-fund

quote:

When he raised the issue of filling out some of the unused ballots that are mailed to every household in the state this month, he was told by Meredith Hicks, the director of Work for Progress, a liberal group funded by Democratic Super PACS.: “That is not even like lying or something, if someone throws out a ballot, like if you want to fill it out you should do it.” She then brazenly offered O’Keefe, disguised as a middle-aged college instructor, a job with her group.

The video of O’Keefe’s encounters with other operatives is equally disturbing. He has a conversation with Greenpeace employee Christina Topping, and suggests he might have access to unused ballots from people who have recently moved out of college fraternity houses. “I mean it is putting the votes to good use,” she responds. “So really, truly, like yeah, that is awesome.”

Colorado secretary of state Scott Gessler, along with several county election clerks, have raised warning flags that a new state law that automatically mails a ballot to everyone is an engraved invitation to commit fraud. “Sending ballots to people who did not even ask for them or have moved out of state is asking for trouble” he told me. For example, little can stop someone who collects discarded ballots from trash cans, fills out the ballots, and mails them in. Election workers are supposed to compare signatures on registration records with signed ballots. But if a person has a “witness” who signs the ballot on the witness line, then the signatures do not have to match and the vote is counted.

Secretary of State Gessler had futile arguments with Democratic state legislators last year who insisted on ramming a bill through that mandated Colorado become the only state in the nation with both all-mail balloting and same-day registration.






This is from the 20th October.....Mother Jones.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/10/colorado-dems-james-okeefe

James O'Keefe, the conservative provocateur, has been on the prowl in Colorado, the setting of a close Senate race between Democratic incumbent Mark Udall and GOP Rep. Cory Gardner, as well as a nip-and-tuck governor's contest. Last week, O'Keefe and two of his collaborators tried to bait Democratic field staffers into approving voter fraud involving Colorado's universal vote-by-mail program, according to three Democratic staffers who interacted with O'Keefe or his colleagues.

Democratic staffers in Colorado recently came to believe they were the subject of an O'Keefe operation after campaign workers became suspicious about would-be volunteers who had asked about filling out and submitting mail-in ballots for others. Recently, the 30-year-old O'Keefe has targeted the Senate campaigns of Arkansas Democrat Mark Pryor and Kentucky Democrat Alison Lundergan Grimes by filming undercover videos of staffers or the candidate.

Last Tuesday, a man who appeared to be in his 20s showed up at a Democratic field office in Boulder wanting to volunteer to help elect Udall and Rep. Jared Polis (D-Colo.), according to a Democratic staffer who met with him and asked not to be identified. The man introduced himself as "Nick Davis," and he said he was a University of Colorado-Boulder student and LGBT activist involved with a student group called Rocky Mountain Vote Pride. Davis mentioned polls showing the race between Udall and Gardner was tight, and he asked the staffer if he should fill out and mail in ballots for other college students who had moved away but still received mail on campus. The Democratic staffer says he told Davis that doing this would be voter fraud and that he should not do it.

On Friday, Udall campaigned with Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) on the University of Colorado-Boulder campus. After the event, a woman calling herself "Bonnie" approached a different staffer and, according to this staffer's boss, asked whether she could fill out and submit blank ballots found in a garbage can. The staffer, according to her boss, said that she told her no.

That same day, the guy identifying himself as "Nick Davis" returned to the Democratic office in Boulder. He was accompanied by a man wearing heavy makeup and a mustache, according to the Democratic staffer who had met Davis three days earlier. Davis introduced his friend as a "civics professor" at the University of Colorado-Boulder and the faculty adviser to Rocky Mountain Vote Pride. Davis and the professor, who said his name was "John Miller," picked up Udall campaign literature and canvassing information.

On Monday, O'Keefe tweeted a photo of himself with a mustache and said he'd recently posed as a "45yo" for one of his "election investigations."




BamaD -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 5:28:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

What DK did not note is that the same number of years of the south disenfranchising voters is outnumbered by the years of Democrats condoning and helping with illegal voting.

Aside from a respite during Reconstruction, African Americans in the South were pretty much disenfranchised from 1789 into the 1960s. What years did you have in mind for "condoning and helping"? Do you think it happened on the same scale as denial of the franchise to blacks?

Look at Tammany Hall, the Pendegrast machine (in ST Louis) and the Chicago machine, not to mention large parts of Texas. If you think there was anything close to political honesty during Reconstruction you are sadly mistaken.




Lucylastic -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 5:31:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Probably why Wasserman Schultz thinks the Dems will hold the Senate despite polls forecasting a very bad year for them

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/senate-races/222582-dnc-chair-were-going-to-hold-the-senate

Voter fraud

Is that how Romney was a shoo in back in 2012? according to the polls at least. landslide we were told
Karl rove seemed positive about it right up to the end of the day
its going to be interesting to see just what a repub senate is going to destroy this time
snorts




sloguy02246 -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 5:34:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

Speaking as someone who didn't have a driver's license for 17 year.... If you do not drive or own a car and you live in a region with no public transit, it can be virtually impossible to get to the DMV to get a legal photo ID card. There is a vicious circle that people who have a car don't think about.....it's very difficult to get a decent job if you don't have reliable transportation to get to that job....but at the same time it is very difficult to afford a car and it's upkeep if you don't have a decent job to help pay for it.



Youre telling us, that for 17 years you never did any of these things:

As these things apply in my state and/or to me personally:

1. Board an airplane - Yes
2. Write a check - Not me
3. Cash a check - Not me
4. Use a credit card - No
5. Drive a motor vehicle - Yes (obviously)
6. Apply for a business license - Don't know
7. Apply for permission to hold a protest or rally - Don't know
8. Get a job - No, unless the job requires you to drive a vehicle for the employer
9. Buy a house or real estate - No
10. Rent a domicile - No
11. Rent a motor vehicle -Yes
12. Purchase a firearm - Don't know
13. Apply for a hunting license - Don't know
14. Apply for a fishing license - Don't know
15. Purchase alcoholic beverages - Usually
16. Purchase tobacco or products that contain nicotine - Usually
17. Purchase a motor vehicle - No
18. Register a motor vehicle - No
19. Apply for a building permit - Don't know
20. Receiving prescription medicine - No
21. Purchasing OTC medicine that contains pseudoephedrine - Yes
22. Serve on jury duty - No, but ironically, jurors used to selected from voter rolls. The state then expanded the base to also include all validly licensed drivers.
23. Get a bank account - No, just a Social Security card.

?

Without an ID you CAN still vote though. La Raza ("The Racists") want to make sure you know that, too

La Raza Promotes Washington Post Guide On Where People Can Vote Without An ID





cloudboy -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 5:49:21 PM)


The GOP is afraid of voters, as is their base. Turning away voters at the polls makes them feel better. In 2000 the GOP scrubbed voters off the rolls in FLA -- and for their good efforts (double upped by the S.CT.) we got eight years wars, deficits, and a GREAT Recession.




Lucylastic -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 6:03:28 PM)

"There is only one motivation for imposing burdens on voting that are ostensibly designed to discourage voter-impersonation fraud," he writes, "and that is to discourage voting by persons likely to vote against the party responsible for imposing the burdens." More specifically, he observes, photo ID laws are "highly correlated with a state's having a Republican governor and Republican control of the legislature and appear to be aimed at limiting voting by minorities, particularly blacks." In Wisconsin, according to evidence presented at trial, the voter ID law would disenfranchise 300,000 residents, or 9% of registered voters.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-why-voter-id-laws-are-evil-20141013-column.html#page=1
How about the argument that photo ID is required to board a plane and for many other routine actions, so what's the harm in requiring it for voting? Posner points out that the requirement of photo ID for flying is "a common misconception." Nor is it true, as the three-judge appeals panel had it, that photo ID is required to pick up a prescription (not so in Wisconsin and 34 other states, Posner observes); open a bank account (not true anywhere in the country) or buy a gun (not true under federal law at gun shows, flea markets, or online).

Then there's the argument that getting a photo ID is easy and cheap, and therefore that people without them must not care enough about voting to bother. The three-judge panel wrote that obtaining a photo ID merely requires people "to scrounge up a birth certificate and stand in line at the office that issues driver's licenses." Posner replies that he himself "has never seen his birth certificate and does not know how he would go about 'scrounging' it up." Posner appends a sheaf of documents handed to an applicant seeking a photo ID for whom no birth certificate could be found in state records. It ran to 12 pages.

As for its supposedly negligible cost, "that's an easy assumption for federal judges to make, since we are given photo IDs by court security free of charge. And we have upper-middle-class salaries. Not everyone is so fortunate." He cites a study placing the expense of obtaining documentation at $75 to $175 -- which even when adjusted for inflation is far higher than "the $1.50 poll tax outlawed by the 24th amendment in 1964."

Posner places Wisconsin's argument for its voter ID law within a "fact-free cocoon." Last week, the state's governor, Scott Walker, defended the law by asserting it's worthwhile whether it stops "one, 100 or 1,000" illegal votes." Leaving aside that the number of illegal votes for which there's any evidence is zero, the very idea of disenfranchising 300,000 voters in the hope of stopping even 1,000 illegal votes is beyond fatuous, and well into the category of hopelessly cynical. Walker's lawyers tried to make that case before Judge Posner. His written opinion shows what he thought of it.




dcnovice -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 6:10:22 PM)

quote:

Look at Tammany Hall, the Pendegrast machine (in ST Louis) and the Chicago machine, not to mention large parts of Texas.

Fair enough.

quote:

If you think there was anything close to political honesty during Reconstruction you are sadly mistaken.

Oh God, no. Never thought that; never typed it. What I did say was that Reconstruction gave some African American a taste of the civil rights denied them for much of U.S. history.




BamaD -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 6:39:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Look at Tammany Hall, the Pendegrast machine (in ST Louis) and the Chicago machine, not to mention large parts of Texas.

Fair enough.

quote:

If you think there was anything close to political honesty during Reconstruction you are sadly mistaken.

Oh God, no. Never thought that; never typed it. What I did say was that Reconstruction gave some African American a taste of the civil rights denied them for much of U.S. history.

African Americans were used as much during reconstruction as at any other time. There was an intent to rub the South's nose in the "power" blacks had but they were just front men for carpetbaggers. Much of Jim Crow was a response to this. This does not justify Jim Crow.




dcnovice -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 7:07:22 PM)

quote:

African Americans were used as much during reconstruction as at any other time. There was an intent to rub the South's nose in the "power" blacks had but they were just front men for carpetbaggers.

The Party of Lincoln was just using blacks?




BamaD -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 7:09:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

African Americans were used as much during reconstruction as at any other time. There was an intent to rub the South's nose in the "power" blacks had but they were just front men for carpetbaggers.

The Party of Lincoln was just using blacks?

The radicals in Congress, with whom Lincoln was at odds, saw promoting blacks as one more way to punish white Southerners.




DomKen -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 9:24:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Because we have a long history of certain sorts using such things against some elements of society so if we were to try and force everyone to get a specific ID it would result in a shit storm of epic proportions. So we have a patch work system where everyone has to fend for themselves and therefor the system is quite expensive and not uniform.


Quite expensive and not uniform? Really? So a garden variety driver's license or state photo ID won't do it? As far as I know, every place that's enacted voter ID laws has included those as acceptable ID. A DL costs you what, about $30? State ID is even less. My wife had to get a PA state ID card a few years ago and if I remember correctly it was free.

You neglect to include the cost of getting the person's BC, the cost of missing work to spend the day at the DMV and the cost of getting to and from the DMV.

As has been pointed out over and over again to people it may be trivial for a middle class person with a car to get a DL but for a poor person without a car getting an ID can be a major undertaking particularly if he does not live in the state in which he was born. It can be even worse if he lives in a rural area not served by a full time DMV. In some parts of the country the DMV is open one or two days a week and it could be up to a several hundred mile trip, in parts of Texas for instance, to get there even then.

Now consider the difficulty of getting the ID in that case.




DomKen -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 9:33:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

"There is only one motivation for imposing burdens on voting that are ostensibly designed to discourage voter-impersonation fraud," he writes, "and that is to discourage voting by persons likely to vote against the party responsible for imposing the burdens." More specifically, he observes, photo ID laws are "highly correlated with a state's having a Republican governor and Republican control of the legislature and appear to be aimed at limiting voting by minorities, particularly blacks." In Wisconsin, according to evidence presented at trial, the voter ID law would disenfranchise 300,000 residents, or 9% of registered voters.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-why-voter-id-laws-are-evil-20141013-column.html#page=1
How about the argument that photo ID is required to board a plane and for many other routine actions, so what's the harm in requiring it for voting? Posner points out that the requirement of photo ID for flying is "a common misconception." Nor is it true, as the three-judge appeals panel had it, that photo ID is required to pick up a prescription (not so in Wisconsin and 34 other states, Posner observes); open a bank account (not true anywhere in the country) or buy a gun (not true under federal law at gun shows, flea markets, or online).

Then there's the argument that getting a photo ID is easy and cheap, and therefore that people without them must not care enough about voting to bother. The three-judge panel wrote that obtaining a photo ID merely requires people "to scrounge up a birth certificate and stand in line at the office that issues driver's licenses." Posner replies that he himself "has never seen his birth certificate and does not know how he would go about 'scrounging' it up." Posner appends a sheaf of documents handed to an applicant seeking a photo ID for whom no birth certificate could be found in state records. It ran to 12 pages.

As for its supposedly negligible cost, "that's an easy assumption for federal judges to make, since we are given photo IDs by court security free of charge. And we have upper-middle-class salaries. Not everyone is so fortunate." He cites a study placing the expense of obtaining documentation at $75 to $175 -- which even when adjusted for inflation is far higher than "the $1.50 poll tax outlawed by the 24th amendment in 1964."

Posner places Wisconsin's argument for its voter ID law within a "fact-free cocoon." Last week, the state's governor, Scott Walker, defended the law by asserting it's worthwhile whether it stops "one, 100 or 1,000" illegal votes." Leaving aside that the number of illegal votes for which there's any evidence is zero, the very idea of disenfranchising 300,000 voters in the hope of stopping even 1,000 illegal votes is beyond fatuous, and well into the category of hopelessly cynical. Walker's lawyers tried to make that case before Judge Posner. His written opinion shows what he thought of it.

That's an opinion by Judge Richard Posner. For the less well informed Justice Posner is one of the most frequently cited judges ever and is considered by most legal scholars to be the leading conservative legal intellectual alive today. He wrote the first voter ID opinion in the Indiana voter ID case years back. That he has changed his mind on the merits of these laws pretty much ends any hope of them standing up to legal scrutiny.




joether -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 10:26:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


"If we can save just one election from voter fraud..."

quote:



First case of voter fraud confirmed in Rio Arriba Co.

The first case of voter fraud in New Mexico this election has been confirmed by the Rio Arriba County Clerk's Office.

According to the Rio Arriba County Clerk's office, a voter trying to cast an early ballot in Espanola Saturday was told he had already voted three days prior.

The man told poll workers he hadn't voted. He was then shown the signature of the voter, but he says it wasn't his signature.

Officials say they were able to confirm that the signature on the original ballot did not match the legal voter's signature on file.

Poll workers allowed the man to vote on a provisional ballot, but election officials will have to determine whether the provisional ballot can be counted. Elections officials have no legal means of actually verifying signatures or confirming identification of a voter...

...Rio Arriba County also fell under scrutiny just two years ago when campaign workers were caught offering alchol to voters.

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3607682.shtml#.VFZUimceUt0


Many elections are extremely close, and there is no way of knowing how rampant voter fraud is


Funny how 'voter fraud' is always brought up by conservatives around election times. Especially when they fear their candidate might lose to the Democrats. Always with the 'it has to be voter fraud' rather than, 'the conservative candidate was a loser that lost fair & square'. How many votes were cast compared to the one suspected case? How do we know this guy wasn't voting twice? Even with a photo ID card, there is nothing here suggesting events would be any different.

You and many others Sanity seem to forget something: Photo ID's are pretty easy to fake when used on people outside of college towns. Why is that? Underage drinking is illegal. You'd know that if you had gone to an actual 'place of higher education' than high school. In Boston, MA, the bartenders are routinely tested by law enforcement given the 164+ universities and colleges in the greater Boston area. Sure, they can spot the fake ones, but the REALLY good ones are tough to spot. Now imagine those REALLY good fakes in a place like 'nowherefuck, UT' or 'eastbumfuck, OH'. In those places, the poll workers are neither well trained nor observant. Slipping fakes through 'the system' would be like stealing money from a bank while invisible. You have added ANOTHER layer of government that doesn't do shit towards combating the very fear your spewing. And your someone that bitches for...LESS GOVERNMENT....







joether -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/2/2014 10:54:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YouName
This is asked everywhere, on every forum but let's try here too.
Can you americans please explain why you do not use ID cards or at least register cards (cards you have shown an ID card to get) for voting?
It's not like you live in a libertarian utopia without ID-cards...so where is the discrimination/problems in general with using them?


I'll explain it this way for you. First, we have this document we call 'The US Constitution'. Many countries have a similar kind of document. But this document has something called 'The Bill of Rights'. Within this section of the Constitution, there are ten amendments. The 4th amendment is the importance here:


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


What this means is the government can not DIRECTLY ask for an individuals 'stuff' without a justifiable reason that something is wrong. Its basically requires law enforcement to obtain a search warrant to search someone's 'stuff' (be it a shed, cellphone, or house). The assumption is the person has commited, is in the process of committing, or is about to commit an illegal action.

So where is the problem?

A person does not start off 'guilty' and must prove themselves 'innocent'. Rather it requires someone else (from the person wishing to vote) to accuse the person of a possible illegal action. And that the accuser must give evidence that the person is not being truthful to a law enforcement official (i.e. a police officer). Each polling station would have one or more such police officers within to oversee things. Even then, the person being accused doesn't have to show their ID. Because they are protected under the 5th amendment against being forced to testify against themselves. So how would this get resolved?

In the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, all the police officers are given a smartphone as part of their professional work. This phone has an app for the Massachusetts Motor Vehicle and State Capital ID records (for state IDs). They also have one for searching criminal records. All the officer has to do is enter the name and/or address of the accused and find the information the state has of that individual. Its just a matter of holding up the image on the phone to the individual before them. The officer would not have to show this information to the accuser, as that protects the individual being accused. Based on the information know, the officer could determine the next course of action.

Each of the states have a similar set up. Voter ID Fraud has been used by conservatives in the nation for years to justify even more tyrannical laws be made real. Which is ironic as they are often the people wrapping themselves in the American flag and stating they hate tyranny!

The number of actual voter fraud cases in the United States since 2000, is less than 1000. That's out of a BILLION votes cast. And none of the elections would have been decided due to voter fraud. Voter fraud isn't anywhere approaching what conservatives scream about. Because the penalty for being found guilty in most of the states simply doesn't provide enough incentive to take a risk. Where as robbing $40 million from a bank actually do tempt some given the legal penalties incurred if they were caught and tried in a court room.





GotSteel -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/3/2014 3:36:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Many elections are extremely close, and there is no way of knowing how rampant voter fraud is


Congratulations, your only years behind the rest of us who all ready know that in person voter fraud exists and have determined that it isn't a significant threat. By the way when is your party going to get around to making absentee ballots show ID?

Also significant threats that are actually undermining our democracy like gerrymandering?




Musicmystery -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/3/2014 5:54:00 AM)

And Citizens United.




Sanity -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/3/2014 6:06:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Many elections are extremely close, and there is no way of knowing how rampant voter fraud is


Congratulations, your only years behind the rest of us who all ready know that in person voter fraud exists and have determined that it isn't a significant threat. By the way when is your party going to get around to making absentee ballots show ID?

Also significant threats that are actually undermining our democracy like gerrymandering?


Leftists gerrymander, so your attempt to pin that on "my party" only highlights your extreme bias and lack of integrity on the subject

With that in mind, I will ask you rhetorically, since you are among the very few from your party who will admit that voter fraud happens, how can you preach that the fraud levels are acceptable. Many elections are extremely tight...




mnottertail -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/3/2014 6:27:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

Speaking as someone who didn't have a driver's license for 17 year.... If you do not drive or own a car and you live in a region with no public transit, it can be virtually impossible to get to the DMV to get a legal photo ID card. There is a vicious circle that people who have a car don't think about.....it's very difficult to get a decent job if you don't have reliable transportation to get to that job....but at the same time it is very difficult to afford a car and it's upkeep if you don't have a decent job to help pay for it.



Youre telling us, that for 17 years you never did any of these things:

1. Board an airplane
2. Write a check
3. Cash a check
4. Use a credit card
5. Drive a motor vehicle
6. Apply for a business license
7. Apply for permission to hold a protest or rally
8. Get a job
9. Buy a house or real estate
10. Rent a domicile
11. Rent a motor vehicle
12. Purchase a firearm
13. Apply for a hunting license
14. Apply for a fishing license
15. Purchase alcoholic beverages
16. Purchase tobacco or products that contain nicotine
17. Purchase a motor vehicle
18. Register a motor vehicle
19. Apply for a building permit
20. Receiving prescription medicine
21. Purchasing OTC medicine that contains pseudoephedrine
22. Serve on jury duty
23. Get a bank account

?

Without an ID you CAN still vote though. La Raza ("The Racists") want to make sure you know that, too

La Raza Promotes Washington Post Guide On Where People Can Vote Without An ID


None of those things are forbidden by the constitution. Voter ID is. It is plain and simple, a poll tax.





Lucylastic -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/3/2014 6:28:45 AM)

yet you aint worried that 600,000 registered Texas voters will not be able to vote, because you ...or rather n.mexico found ONE case of fraud it justifies disenfranchising voters.
Or are you denying that for whatever reason these people cannot get their ID in time for the election.
I guess you have never had to change your name on any ID due to a divorce, adoption, change of name, address.
Ginsberg was right.
So is this
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/kwgaxa/democalypse-2014---south-by-south-mess--austin-s-real-weirdness




mnottertail -> RE: Voter Fraud DOES exist! (11/3/2014 6:35:24 AM)

And most of the asswipe being spewed around here about the 'MASSIVE FRAUD', what will we do about that if the nutsuckers take the house and the senate? Surely that is prima facie evidence of voter fraud.

In any case, most of the howling out here about fraud, voter id would not solve or even come in the arena of solutions.





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