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Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/4/2014 8:23:33 AM   
needingrelease50


Posts: 7
Joined: 3/24/2014
Status: offline 		From what I am seeing there seems to be more extreme female Domme's than those that enjoy the softer more sensual side. I am also seeing more and more females who seem to be very aggressive in their actions and tones from moment one. Is anyone else seeing this trend as well and if so do you have an explanation as to why?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/4/2014 8:26:16 AM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline 		I have no idea who these people are you are referring to. Some subs are sensual, some subs are sadistic. Some Dommes are sensual. Some Dommes are sadistic. And there are fluctuations of the two in that spectrum. It has nothing to do with gender.

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to needingrelease50)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/4/2014 8:30:24 AM   
needingrelease50


Posts: 7
Joined: 3/24/2014
Status: offline 		All I can do is base this from my experience I have had and am having as contacts are made. There appears to be a definite majority of those female dominants who are more extreme than sensual. I was simply curious as to why?

(in reply to GoddessManko)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/4/2014 9:04:46 AM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: needingrelease50

All I can do is base this from my experience I have had and am having as contacts are made. There appears to be a definite majority of those female dominants who are more extreme than sensual. I was simply curious as to why?


Maybe you need to revise the type of women you are contacting. If you're gonna pursue someone who's flipping you the bird while sticking their bare ass in your face, what do you expect?

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to needingrelease50)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/4/2014 9:57:39 AM   
needingrelease50


Posts: 7
Joined: 3/24/2014
Status: offline 		You misunderstand. I am not pursuing any of these women. Like most I come online and look at profiles. Most of the time I see one of 2 types of profiles. Either they are a female claiming to be a Pro Domme or they are claiming they are extremely sadistic and demanding. Very few claim to be sensual. As anyone that has true experience in this lifestyle knows, there is more to this than just tying someone up and smacking their ass. You see many females asking and demanding the Male Doms be more of a Daddy type, yet you do not see this in the female dominants as much. It is just an observation I have made and I am wondering why this is the case? Surely there are more women who enjoy the softer and more sensual side of D/s than what is being shown.

(in reply to GoddessManko)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/4/2014 11:18:09 AM   
Wickad


Posts: 428
Joined: 3/12/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe you're looking for the swinger boards??

(in reply to needingrelease50)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/4/2014 12:18:36 PM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: needingrelease50

You misunderstand. I am not pursuing any of these women. Like most I come online and look at profiles. Most of the time I see one of 2 types of profiles. Either they are a female claiming to be a Pro Domme or they are claiming they are extremely sadistic and demanding. Very few claim to be sensual. As anyone that has true experience in this lifestyle knows, there is more to this than just tying someone up and smacking their ass. You see many females asking and demanding the Male Doms be more of a Daddy type, yet you do not see this in the female dominants as much. It is just an observation I have made and I am wondering why this is the case? Surely there are more women who enjoy the softer and more sensual side of D/s than what is being shown.


No, I have no issue finding subs but you have an issue finding Doms, so you seem to be the one misunderstanding. No one is here to curtail what they want to suit your needs, reality check. If you want to have it your way then figure out if you even have what it takes to be a sub in the first place. If not you do have choices. But the S and m in BDSM stands for sado-masochism. Not sensual-matriarch.

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to needingrelease50)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/4/2014 12:44:18 PM   
SpyUnderCover


Posts: 208
Joined: 6/21/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: needingrelease50

From what I am seeing there seems to be more extreme female Domme's than those that enjoy the softer more sensual side. I am also seeing more and more females who seem to be very aggressive in their actions and tones from moment one. Is anyone else seeing this trend as well and if so do you have an explanation as to why?

I haven't really noticed this trend, but then again, I don't look at dominants' profiles all that often.

My impression is that a lot of pro dommes stress their sadism and "hard discipline," perhaps because that's more the stereotype and they cater to clients who expect the stereotype. So you might be encountering a lot of pro domme profiles. Personally I lean toward the sensual side of domination, and many of the other dommes I know do as well.

Spy

(in reply to needingrelease50)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/4/2014 2:39:35 PM   
ReinRaus


Posts: 69
Joined: 4/11/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: needingrelease50

From what I am seeing there seems to be more extreme female Domme's than those that enjoy the softer more sensual side. I am also seeing more and more females who seem to be very aggressive in their actions and tones from moment one. Is anyone else seeing this trend as well and if so do you have an explanation as to why?


As a Domme that can consider herself "sensual" if we're using labels in this discussion, I can tell you it's just a matter of variety in the pool. I probably receive just as many messages from male submissives that come off as overly eager and aggressive while asking me to do insane personal and extreme things (cage me, cuck me, make me your slave, use me, etc). The extreme Dommes you're speaking about are probably better matches for these types than I am.

Personally I delete these messages because it's my assumption they're inexperienced or not serious submissives that are trolling this website looking for a temporary thrill. I demand that potential partners have a normal, levelheaded discussion while we get to know each other before any sort of power play happens in person. You have the same right to express in your profile or through PMs that you want to have a calm chat to get to know someone instead of jumping in and having orders barked at you by some stranger. If she reacts to this request in a hostile manner, then you two are simply not compatible. Move on.

Asking why they prefer to be extreme is like asking why you prefer to receive sensual treatment. Or asking why you may like chocolate while I like strawberry. Personal preference—that's why.

< Message edited by ReinRaus -- 11/4/2014 2:41:39 PM >

(in reply to needingrelease50)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/4/2014 3:59:42 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: needingrelease50

From what I am seeing there seems to be more extreme female Domme's than those that enjoy the softer more sensual side. I am also seeing more and more females who seem to be very aggressive in their actions and tones from moment one. Is anyone else seeing this trend as well and if so do you have an explanation as to why?


Because flexing the domly dominant domination of domliness is the only way they know how to sound sadistic enough to fulfill the perception that some subs get from porn.

They are not what you are looking for, so don't bother with them.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to needingrelease50)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/4/2014 6:54:19 PM   
YouName


Posts: 271
Joined: 10/22/2014
Status: offline 		A lot of sensually dominant women do not consider themselves to be within the sphere of BDSM imo.


Gauge, girls watch it too =) Some surveys say more...
http://sciencenordic.com/teenage-girls-watch-porn-too
Also. He mentioned the ones that ~are not looking for clients~ apparently sound more sadistic.



(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/5/2014 2:33:08 AM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpyUnderCover
<snip>
Personally I lean toward the sensual side of domination, and many of the other dommes I know do as well.

As do I and my lifestyle Domme friends. One of them is a Kind Sadist who is also a Sensual Domme.

OP, what you are have been seeking perhaps is a Sensual Domme, who in turn will seek a sensual sub. (However, there is no way for me to know since you have a hidden profile.) I think where you may be getting perplexed is in seeing that more Dominants than not are Sadistic, but being sensual is not mutually exclusive.

You also must separate M/f from F/m. There being many more DaddyDommes than MommyDommes is a male/female phenomenon. Women generally do not want babified adult males. If we wanted childish men, and men who suffer from Peter Pan syndrome of never wanting to grow up to accept adult responsibilities, there is a plentiful supply out there in the vanilla world. It's just not sexy or desirable. There are many, many more bb/lb's than there are MommyDommes to diaper their age-regressed bottoms, and when it comes to sensuality, that particular ABDL dynamic does not lend itself to sexual interactions. I personally find nothing erotic about an AT-Adult Teen either. Many women have raised or are raising children of their own and the last thing they want is to take on the responsibility of yet another child or a man with a demanding, immature childlike mentality.

It's critical to separate D/s as a commercialized business enterprise with Pro-Dommes and other for-hire BDSM providers, including Cyber Fin-Dommes who either offer pay-for-cam-play or who sell articles of used undergarments. Some of them will profess to be lifestyle Dommes and then require tribute or demand monetary compensation because they are essentially in the business of being fetish & kink delivery systems. Their kinky clients seek a Top to their own bottom, which is BDSM presented with the veneer of a D/s relationship dynamic as a kind of D/s fantasyland experience, but which may not be an authentic D/s dynamic which entails ownership; and ownership requires a very-much-strings-attached commitment in the form of the submissive being collared by the Dominant. There are call girls who specialize as BDSM Tops and call themselves Dommes, who are not in fact Dominant women whatsoever, simply opportunists. This is a job and a role for them to play. They are merely service Tops. Many of their DO-ME kinkster clients are merely masochistic bottoms or fetishists who are not actually submissive males either. It works both ways in terms of misrepresentations (whether intended deliberately or not) or the trappings of illusory and/or delusional D/s.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to SpyUnderCover)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/5/2014 7:34:09 AM   
Musicman631


Posts: 1
Joined: 6/22/2014
Status: offline 		Manko your comments are simply wrong. This was a general question which a few of you have made about someone's choices which is not the case nor what I interpret was the original premise. When you come on a site like this and see literally hundreds of profiles daily, most of which are either women saying they are PRO Domme's needing tributes (which half are not even really women, truth be told!) and the others saying they are strictly sadistic because now they are part of the he man woman haters club, because some man did them wrong in the past and this is their way to show their power over men in general, it leaves very little room for the few sensual Domme's to express themselves. Hey to each their own. That is fine. There are enough people out here to fulfill anyone's needs and fantasies. That is a given. What is funny though is you cannot find a real woman who likes to be in charge but doesn't need to boast, posture or pretend to be all that. They are comfortable in their own skin and enjoy the sensual aspects of the lifestyle. They are confident in their abilities and do not need to act like the are superior to everyone on the planet. Why is that? There has been a definite switch in mentality from what I will call the Old School guard and the people who claim to be lifestyler's today. Back in the day it was almost like family. We had to talk to one another. We accepted each other. We respected each others desires and needs and understood there was someone out there for everyone. Even if you didn't necessarily mesh to form a dynamic everyone was still polite and willing to help each other to find their direction. Now you have people coming online and posturing. Hiding behind a computer screen, posting profiles to show the world how dominant or submissive they are. Posturing and role playing for the quick endorphin rush until it wears off then they are off to find the next quick fix. The reason, in my opinion, you cannot find any sensual female dominant is because they have become disheartened at the state the lifestyle has become and now choose to remove themselves from sites like this. It does limit the ability for people like the OP to find someone they mesh with simply because of the fact they are not available to meet or communicate with.

FieryOpal, I see where you stated you could not see his profile. So you know there is an issue the site is having with profiles being unable to be pulled up at times. The sites owners are doing nothing to correct the issue. I would not assume someone has their profile hidden. That probably is not the case.

(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/5/2014 9:01:28 AM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicman63]
<snip>
The reason, in my opinion, you cannot find any sensual female dominant is because they have become disheartened at the state the lifestyle has become and now choose to remove themselves from sites like this. It does limit the ability for people like the OP to find someone they mesh with simply because of the fact they are not available to meet or communicate with.

FieryOpal, I see where you stated you could not see his profile. So you know there is an issue the site is having with profiles being unable to be pulled up at times. The sites owners are doing nothing to correct the issue. I would not assume someone has their profile hidden. That probably is not the case.

Originally, I wasn't planning on signing up on this site either. I was already on 3-4 vanilla dating sites and kink-friendly vanilla site OkCupid where (save for one) I had indicated that I am a Dominant woman seeking a submissive male. It took some convincing by my friends and my former sub to do so, only because I don't like to attend BDSM community events by myself or without being accompanied by my own sub and there aren't many nearby. It's been shy of a year, and if it weren't for the fora, I wouldn't still be here, and don't spend much time on the profile side other than to clear out my mailboxes and exchange messages with certain on-line friends. There are too many poseurs and kinksters on the prowl for NSA play partners here, for insta-Domming and not to seek out a serious relationship commitment. But that's life, and vanilla sites aren't any better in terms of horndawgs looking for casual sexual encounters.

Sometimes profiles get put on hold for an objectionable main profile pic, but seeing as to how OP has been on this site since the end of March more than 7 months ago, I figured he had put himself on hide. Btw, Musicman, I can't view your profile either.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to Musicman631)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/5/2014 9:27:59 AM   
missalphasubtoy


Posts: 7
Joined: 8/18/2014
Status: offline 		Well, the simple answer to this is that the women who are "not extreme" aren't going to be emailing anyone and that most of the women who email ANY submissive man are pro-s/findommes/scammers i.e. anyone who stands to gain financially from contacting you and see you as a client in some form. I can count on one had the numbers of cold messages I have sent. I have received probably over 400. there is no need to email anyone on this site. Men will email us instead.

(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/5/2014 9:46:14 AM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missalphasubtoy

Well, the simple answer to this is that the women who are "not extreme" aren't going to be emailing anyone and that most of the women who email ANY submissive man are pro-s/findommes/scammers i.e. anyone who stands to gain financially from contacting you and see you as a client in some form. I can count on one had the numbers of cold messages I have sent. I have received probably over 400. there is no need to email anyone on this site. Men will email us instead.

I concur that there is never any necessity for a lifestyle Domme to contact a submissive first. I only initiate contact with others for purposes other than romantic interest, for a friendly reason or out of courtesy -- and even that has gotten misconstrued before. I don't care how many people say that it doesn't matter who contacts whom first. Yes, it does when you're a Domme and you have no ulterior motives.

I have a friend who was contacted by a bisexual lifestyle Domme much younger than he is, on the opposite side of the country than he is. He was suspicious of her motives, naturally. She proposed that they bring in a third so that both he and a hired femsub could both sub for her. When it came down to preliminary *negotiations* it was plain that she had assumed he would foot the bill for the implementation of her BDSM play proposal at a resort in his area, and never had any intention of having sex with him (which is what I had predicted to him already)--that's what the femsub was for! We both had a jolly good laugh at her expense. (Well, I did. ROFL)

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to missalphasubtoy)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/5/2014 10:54:37 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicman631 There has been a definite switch in mentality from what I will call the Old School guard and the people who claim to be lifestyler's today.

There had to be a switch in mentality. "Old Guard" didn't include women. "Old Guard" was to put some order into premiscuous gay men.

quote:


Back in the day it was almost like family. We had to talk to one another. We accepted each other. We respected each others desires and needs and understood there was someone out there for everyone. Even if you didn't necessarily mesh to form a dynamic everyone was still polite and willing to help each other to find their direction. Now you have people coming online and posturing. Hiding behind a computer screen, posting profiles to show the world how dominant or submissive they are. Posturing and role playing for the quick endorphin rush until it wears off then they are off to find the next quick fix. The reason, in my opinion, you cannot find any sensual female dominant is because they have become disheartened at the state the lifestyle has become and now choose to remove themselves from sites like this. It does limit the ability for people like the OP to find someone they mesh with simply because of the fact they are not available to meet or communicate with.


I always say, online is online but real life is very different. I couldn't even start to compare the online BDSM community with the BDSM/fetish clubs, munches and parties. As far as I'm concerned, online has always been about as much use as a chocolate screwdriver.

quote:

needingrelease50
You see many females asking and demanding the Male Doms be more of a Daddy type, yet you do not see this in the female dominants as much. It is just an observation I have made and I am wondering why this is the case? Surely there are more women who enjoy the softer and more sensual side of D/s than what is being shown


Most women don't want to be a Mummy type. Do you want a Mummy type or do you want a sensual Domme?
I consider myself reasonably sadistic but that doesn't mean I don't have a hugely sensual side. I can sometimes be quite maternal with the right person but its an off the cuff thing and not something I would normally advertise and I certainly wouldn't be interested in a guy who needed a mother. I would have to be very close indeed to my submissive to feel at all maternal.

The Daddy type reminded me of a few couples I know. The men, in both cases, are a good bit older than the fem subs and these men really do treat these women like baby girls. These guys pander to their girls needs. They bathe them, cook for them, put them to bed and tuck them in. I'm trying to imagine doing the same for a much younger man... nope, my imagination isn't that good because it keeps switching off. Sensual for me means I get body worship, I get foot massages, I get bathed and I get tucked into bed

_____________________________

My store is http://e-stimstore.com

(in reply to Musicman631)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/5/2014 11:00:39 AM   
NookieNotes


Posts: 1720
Joined: 11/10/2013
Status: offline 		For those Dommes who are perhaps looking for a sub desperately, or for financial gain, it is probably easier to model to fit what many of the subs on here seem to want: extreme, porn-style sub fantasies and experiences.

For those who have been at this a while and are perfectly comfortable with who they are and what they want, will be more comfortable in their roles. They may be sadistic. They may be sensual. They may be cuckoldresses, queens with many knights, Mommy types, strict governesses, whathaveyou.

However, they will likely wait for you to find and contact them. These women, in their solid sense of who they are, will attract men (I get upwards of 30+ new contacts a day at time) like fruit flies to a rotting banana, and have no need to solicit sub men.

I can count on one hand the number of first messages I've sent in the past year on here, and one was regarding a photo of a beautiful dog (I was a dog trainer for a while). LOL!

_____________________________

Nookie
--
https://datingkinky.com

I Write! A few of my books on Amazon: http://amazon.com/author/msnnotes

(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/5/2014 11:01:53 AM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicman631

Manko your comments are simply wrong. This was a general question which a few of you have made about someone's choices which is not the case nor what I interpret was the original premise. When you come on a site like this and see literally hundreds of profiles daily, most of which are either women saying they are PRO Domme's needing tributes (which half are not even really women, truth be told!) and the others saying they are strictly sadistic because now they are part of the he man woman haters club, because some man did them wrong in the past and this is their way to show their power over men in general, it leaves very little room for the few sensual Domme's to express themselves. Hey to each their own. That is fine. There are enough people out here to fulfill anyone's needs and fantasies. That is a given. What is funny though is you cannot find a real woman who likes to be in charge but doesn't need to boast, posture or pretend to be all that. They are comfortable in their own skin and enjoy the sensual aspects of the lifestyle. They are confident in their abilities and do not need to act like the are superior to everyone on the planet. Why is that? There has been a definite switch in mentality from what I will call the Old School guard and the people who claim to be lifestyler's today. Back in the day it was almost like family. We had to talk to one another. We accepted each other. We respected each others desires and needs and understood there was someone out there for everyone. Even if you didn't necessarily mesh to form a dynamic everyone was still polite and willing to help each other to find their direction. Now you have people coming online and posturing. Hiding behind a computer screen, posting profiles to show the world how dominant or submissive they are. Posturing and role playing for the quick endorphin rush until it wears off then they are off to find the next quick fix. The reason, in my opinion, you cannot find any sensual female dominant is because they have become disheartened at the state the lifestyle has become and now choose to remove themselves from sites like this. It does limit the ability for people like the OP to find someone they mesh with simply because of the fact they are not available to meet or communicate with.

FieryOpal, I see where you stated you could not see his profile. So you know there is an issue the site is having with profiles being unable to be pulled up at times. The sites owners are doing nothing to correct the issue. I would not assume someone has their profile hidden. That probably is not the case.



I am a female Domme, I have been onthis thread long enough to see the accusatory tones of subs towards female Dommes and the conveniently overwhelming ratio of them as opposed to complaints of male Doms to feel legitimized in my comments. He can very easily look for keywords like "Mommy" to find a D that suits what he is seeking. I have a male baby boy sub on my friend's list and considered him but he had lost his Dominant Mommy tragically and it was a very tender place for me to step myself into being primarily a sadist. We can be all over the spectrum with our kinks because typically subs are far more limited in them than we are. I care about the person first and kink thereafter so more flexible than most. Instead of complaining about Dommes who have little to nothing to do with his extremely specific kink in a wide wide world of BDSM, he can network more and exercise patience like the rest of us did.
And the same to you as well, it is the internet and it's not my fault that it took me 125 pages of email on cs to find someone I would seriously consider a relationship with, nor is it my fault that a cuck thought I should have sex with his 18 year old sons to "humiliate him". Who is the proponent of what currently exists? It's time the subs ask themselves JUST that. Thank you.

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to Musicman631)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Sensual Vs Extreme - 11/5/2014 11:55:00 AM   
littleladybug


Posts: 1082
Joined: 5/30/2013
Status: offline 		I am a female submissive. With that being said, you have your "out"...

So, yes, it's very interesting to see what is "out there". I am currently, decidedly "not looking", but I do enjoy reading through profiles. What I have noticed is a heck of a lot of people who I would NOT be interested in. But, I find a certain joy in seeing it. Fuck yes...there are self-proclaimed male "Doms" who I am sure have only seen BDSM in porn movies. There are also those who are SO adamant in "what they want", who I am sure would cower if they were even in the same room with someone who would think of questioning them...

At the end of the day, though, it's about having the patience to look through it all. To sift through what is obviously crap...and also what you are not interested in...and find someone who strikes your interest.

To those who bemoan the days when everyone "just accepted each other"....and this was just the "bestest, most inclusive lifestyle you could imagine".... those days are done. Now's the time when everyone and their brother or sister can explore this part of themselves. And, really, is that such a bad thing??

One just needs patience, and the ability to sift through profiles and e-mails...

(in reply to GoddessManko)
Profile   Post #: 20
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