RE: are you submissive because of abuse?

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HollyS -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (7/13/2006 9:06:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Good point, julia (and thanks for the stats)! Maybe there should be a lot more submissives than Dominants, if abuse is the guiding factor into this realm of activity or life. I'd bet my bottom dollar some grad student somewher is studying this as we speak. There is some amount of research that's already been done on BDSM and kink. Norman Breslow and Gloria Brame did a good deal of work through the mid to late 80's studying the demographics and personalities of self-described S/m practitioners (which at the time included Dominants and submissives). More recently, Bert Cutler has studied the members of the Arizona Power Exchange as well as power dynamics in D/s relationships (2000 and 2003). Here's some data from Breslow's study: "Sexual and emotional abuse: Another myth to be investigated concerns whether sadomasochistic interests develop because of sexual or emotional abuse in childhood. Five percent of the men and 16 percent of the women reported that they believe that they were sexually abused as children, and 27 percent of the men and 37 percent of the women reported feeling that they were emotionally abused as children." There is also a wonderful piece of research by Ede Thomson regarding SM techniques that are useful for BDSM folks to gain trust and comfort when they are also survivors of child sexual abuse. So there is some data out there, but it puts the numbers of BDSM people with sexual abuse in their background (and I include all forms of D/s, S/m and kink in that term for now) far below that of the general population. Interesting, hrm? One of the most profound things in Dr. Breslow's discussion is the paragraph below. It would be wise for us to keep this in mind when considering the question of "Why are we as we are?" "It is tempting to draw a composite from these data of the "typical" or average sadomasochist. However, such a composite would result in a very atypical sadomasochist, just as a composite of the average American would result in the description of a person who probably doesn't exist. It is possible to say that the average sadomasochist is unremarkable, that is, he or she is just like anyone else, with the one exception of having an interest in SM. Instead of creating a composite sadomasochist, it will be more helpful to take another look at some of the myths and common knowledge about SM, and see how they stand up in light of this research." If anyone is interested in the references for the research I've quoted here, email me and I'll point you to the sources. ~Holly

SusanofO -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (7/13/2006 9:07:05 PM)
Great piece of researc, Holly S - I appreciated reading it.It is an interesting topic, from an intellectual standpoint, I think. There's another question now on the "Ask a Submissive" (or maybe it's "Ask a Master", I can't remember) right now about whether bdsm has much to do with sexual addiction. Even though I don't consider myself a sex addict, and even though it is interesting to hear other people's responses to these types of "Why" questions, and even though people have a right to as much introspection as they want, I still find my self wondering, at times: **Suppose you knew the answer to this question. How would that help you? I wonder about this with all due respect - and add that I consider myself to be a strong supporter of curiosity in general (but I still wonder, maybe because I am curious). - Susan

Vancouver_cinful -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (7/13/2006 9:08:40 PM)
Nope, no abuse, no self-esteem problems...no pathology at all. This is just the way I'm wired, and I've never been happier or healthier.

littlemissub -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (7/13/2006 9:53:07 PM)
I understand that there are those out there who have experienced physical or sexual abuse and who use this way of life as a way to continue that, whether it be intentional or not. But I find it very aggravating that much of society thinks that for a person to be submissive, they HAVE to have been abused. I have never been abused. That is not what makes me submissive. It is simply who I am and I am simply attracted to strong willed men. It is the same as someone being overly attracted to black men rather than white men. Does that necessarily mean that something happened to someone for them to prefer black men? Of course not. Ok that was my rant, lol. I do agree though that being submissive, some people take advantage of your kindness and wanting to give and help. But that would happen even if I didn't practice bdsm.

littlemissub -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (7/13/2006 9:55:02 PM)
thats some interesting information Holly. Thank you.

farmersdaughter -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (7/13/2006 10:05:10 PM)
i dont normally answer these forums..but this one has hit, hard..deep & home for me...i am a sex addict(did 6 months in rehab sex/drugs/drinking)i was physically,emotionally & verbally abused until i was 18(i left home) by my parents and a few boyfriends...my parents(mostly my dad) ingrained in me that he was always right..no matter what & that arguing would get me in big trouble...i feel great release when paddled...caned...etc...but it is never sexual ...it is like a mental cleansing..for me the pain of s&m is no good,,,unless i cry...thank You for such a good thread.....made perfect for someone, by her imperfections...sharon

Tikkiee -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (7/14/2006 12:07:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wildlyincomplete I was reading through the BBW topic and sexual abuse was mentioned a couple times. I am curious to know other's opinions on individuals being submissive because of some kind of abuse rather than being born submissive or choosing to behave in a submissive manor. Thanks ~beth/wildly_incomplete~ Hmm, I was abused quite horribly as a teen. Yet, I would say that this is the reason that I am NOT submissive [:)] However, I do believe that my masochistic tendencies arouse from the abuse.

ExSteelAgain -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (7/14/2006 1:38:52 AM)
HollyS, good work with finding the hard data. Interesting and it kind of fits what I'm about to say. For my view, I think a woman can enter D/s from what I’ve heard described as a position of abuse or one of strength. Some enter because of abuse, I realize, but others enter because they simply desire it. The internet has caused many women from normal families and regular childhoods to learn about D/s and find the inherent attraction that submissiveness has for more than a few. When girls play games, they want to be the ones captured by the pirates.

Mercnbeth -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (7/14/2006 8:02:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shyfem *Sidenote to Merc & Beth....you mentioned in your post that your mother took pills that were prescribed to her while you were in utero....this struck a cord with me because my own mother did as well. I am interested if you know what your mom took. ~shy ------------------------------------------------- May all who tread here find what they seek! shyfem, a synthetic estrogen, Diethylstilbestrol, known by quite a few brand names(desplex, for example) and manufactured by various companies...in this slave's case, her mother was given it as an injection every 10 days of her pregnancy. the potency was equal to tens of thousands of birth control pills, just in the reproductive organ development phase alone. for lots more info, check out: http://www.desaction.org/index.htm hope this helps[:)]

vield -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (7/14/2006 8:24:27 AM)
I learned to love the rush that BD/SM can bring in the course of sexual, emotional and physical abuse at a very young age. The abusers were pre-teenage girls, much older than me. I learned to love kink, but I also became intensely consensual, before I ever heard the word. I also became very intolerant of any adult who abuses others, especially children. I did not become submissive. I became responsive to the charismatic energy of certain others. In some cases their high power level drew my submission, in other cases their submissive power level drew my dominance. I can not blame those who used me, they were children too. vield

justheather -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (7/14/2006 8:42:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I do think that my first marriage became abusive because I am a naturally submissive person perhaps, because vanilla men do not understand what a submissive is, and that a submissive is not a doormat, just loves differently... ...either that or they just arent capable of undertaking the responsibility that a submissive woman places in her dominant. I had some experiences with emotionally and verbally abusive men when I was still dating vanilla guys. Until I came to fully realize that my style of loving was that of a submissive woman, I think, I was just seeking out the types of people who gave me "that feeling" up and down my spine. Unfortunately, an abusive personality can initially give off a vibe that is very similar to that of a Dom...especially to an inexperienced submissive who is not yet self-aware regarding her submission. I was unconsciously seeking out the control I craved, but in the wrong arena. This wasnt their fault, how could they know I was a submissive looking for a dom? It's almost as if I was participating in non-consensual power exchange....I was subbing to them without their knowledge. Of course their abusive actions toward me were also non-consensual and very much were their "fault". Once I discovered what D/s was all about, I was able to make better choices (as there are plenty of abusers here to choose from if that's what you are still unconsciously looking for) and finally able to have a healthy relationship that involves consensual power exchange. There are still times when I have to really stop and re-frame experiences Im having now so that my mind does not automatically place them in the "unhealthy" category. Not because what is going on is abuse, but because I developed some knee-jerk responses while dating abusive men. Having resolved to never be in an abusive situation again, I am sometimes hyper-alert to anything that looks, feels, smells, tastes like my past experiences. I try to see this as "the work" of my emotional life as opposed to a "problem". I know the whole "submission is a gift" thing gets under some people's skin, but really, opening yourself up completely to someone can be viewed as a gift. This is not something exclusive to D/s relationships. It is really important that people who have a history of abusive relationships, whether in childhood or adulthood, be very careful to whom they open that part of themselves, as hard as it may be when you are feeling so elated at finally "coming home" to D/s. I believe it unwise to view a relationship, any relationship really, but a D/s one for particular reasons, as a means to "fixing" what someone else "broke". With regard the OP, I think it can be less-than-productive to think in terms of "being" anything as a result of something else. People are so much more complex than that.

Newgirl4Dom -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (3/22/2008 8:35:28 PM)
yes. and i should probably be in therapy huh?

slvemike4u -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (3/23/2008 6:27:09 AM)
Suffered abuse as a child at the hands o a family member.Definately believe it influenced my being a submissive.With some therapy was able to decide too much power was in the hands of a dead pedophile so I took it back...his influence does not matter anymore ...really simple i just enjoy what i do..and juliaoceana be careful believing those statistics the under reporting of child abuse is off the charts especially where young boys feel the stigma of abuse by a male

camille65 -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (3/23/2008 6:45:30 AM)
Yipes. I was about to post but saw the date of the OP.DeadThread [8\|]

MariaIsabel -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (3/24/2008 12:34:43 PM)
i believe that i was born a bit of a dom or switch but due to the sexual abuse it has brought out the more submissive side and considering all the things i like i believe that i have grown to be more submissive than i have grown to be dom and im happy with that.

rubyrain -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (3/24/2008 12:44:23 PM)
I was watching the history or discovery channel or one of those kinds of channels wherein they were discussing serial killers and whether or not it was genetic or nurturing. The conclusion was reached that it wasn't either/or it was a combination of things. I think for me it is maybe a little of each. I believe that in many ways I was born this way, but I can certainly see where certain events in my nurturing would have reinforced this. Then too I am a survivor of abuse and I do find that it also affects my hard limits as well.

TeachMeToLive -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (3/24/2008 12:45:50 PM)
i was never abused as a child. i had a wonderful family (still do), who would not have tolerated it. i've always been submissive in nature, but my best friend feels that i got 'involved with these crazy notions' (BDSM to the rest of us) because i was raped in my early 20's. i don't however think that being abused at any age has much to do with our most integral selves. that for me is when my submission stems from. a place deep inside that has always 'been'.

domiguy -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (3/24/2008 12:46:04 PM)
Unfortunately everyone that had posted on this thread was ultimately murdered by their abusers....I am setting up a charity for the funerals.... All donations should be forwarded to: Domiguy Industries 1060 W. Addison Chicago Il. 60613

MariaIsabel -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (3/24/2008 12:46:08 PM)
well in a way hun it is emotional but in the end it sounds like she was doing the only thing she had learned her whole life and that was that everything had to be perfect because of your grandmother being a perfectionist it well got to your mom and it made your mom do the only thing she knew growing up. the only thing i caution is that you watch your self and try to end that trend and trail so that your daughter doesnt have to go through what you went through. heather quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Well I am not sure what counts as abuse as far as this question goes. What about subtle, yet pervasive emotional abuse? Never physical (spanked a few times) but maybe just always receiving the (deliberately given) impression you were somehow falling short - even though you got fantastic grades, kept up your physical appearance and were nice to everyone, and, even if you were kind of shy, had more than enough friends? Does that count? I had wonderful parents - I really did. They were smart, saw that my sisters and I got a great education, they were (much of the time) fun to be around, took us on great vacations in the Summer. They did fight a lot with eachother (probably because they were both extroverted, dominant types). But - I truly had it so much better than about 95% of the people I know that I can't even tell if (from my mother, never, ever my father), never quite measuring up even counts as "abuse"? Maybe it was just perfectionism on her part. She was also on the narcissistic side; she wanted attention all the time, and she got it, too - because she was witty, entertaining, beautiful and smart. She never stopped talking. And she never listened, either. Fortunately, my dad did. But, God forbid if reality crept in and you broke a leg and had to see a doctor, or had to be picked up for an extra rehearsal or some practice at school - if your life interfered with her plans (and she had a zillion things going at once, all the time), you weren't going to hear the end of it for days. When I was hit with a very severe depression at age 18, that was so severe I was hardly coherent (that was completely genetically based, on my father's side of the family), and dropped out of school for a semester, on the advice of more than one doctor (I went back the next semester) she said: "What am I supposed to tell my friends - about you? Just what am I supposed to say?". She made me feel deeply ashamed of that - I was not allowed to mention it to anyone. That was something that was entirely not my fault. This kind of thing happened - a lot. My dad rarely said anything about it (he travelled a lot for his job, so wasn't home a lot, at times). Also, if I got an A (I always got A's) at school, why weren't they A+'s? Why was I not a cheerleder? Why was I not prom queen? She had been a prom queen - and a cheerleader. She always had lots of boyfriends (I didn't have a date until I was a junior in high school). And - why was I so damned shy? I got pushed into so many activites I had zero desire to participate in - the only ones I ever liked were music and art. Why didn't I date more? And (even though I wasn't fat, not even close, really), my mother (who had at one time been a runway model, for a very brief period) always thought I should be "watching my weight." I became anorexic at 14, and again at 19 and I can't help but think that attitude had something to do with it. I was hardly overweight, but she thought it was "marvelous" and bragged to her bridge club when my waist measurement went from 25" to 21" in 7 weeks. A few of her friends wanted to know "my weight loss secret". "Stop eating", I said. I am surprised (a bit) that I even posted this. Because: 1) I am not sure it qualifies as "abuse" since this stuff probably happens in half the homes in America that have kids in them and - 2) I really did love my mother - she died two years ago of lung cancer, and I have just as many good memories as bad memories of her (maybe more good ones). I have no right to complain when I think of what some people have gone through. I miss her every day. But I do think she had some "issues" that she could have worked on. I am sure they came from dealing with her own mother (my grandmother intimidated her her entire life). And so it goes. Not her fault, really. And not sure it counts as "abuse". More like rampant perfectionism. - Susan

MariaIsabel -> RE: are you submissive because of abuse? (3/24/2008 12:59:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mavis Back to the thread though, i think it's accurate that in any group of women, you will find 25% with a history of sexual abuse. Maybe submissives are just more able to admit and discuss this then nilla women, who are abused at the exact same rate. It only appears we're a lump of wiggling victims. Which is pretty far from the truth if you look at the overall strength and mental health of balanced submissive women. i know that it did take me a while to open up but i have also found that i open up about it more than any other abused female i run into because untill i say something about me feeling like that is what we have in common i dont normally ever hear a peeo about the person being abused and i am finding now as im reading all these post the fact of how amazing it is that us women that have been abused are strong enought to live this lifestyle and not let the abuse get to us thought i know i have times that something happens that causes a flash back and well thats just something that i have to find a way to communicate a safe word when i end up locking up. the main thing with me locking up and forgetting my safe words or even the defalt yellow and red is that i go off in my own world and its as if im not even there totally but i know whats going on and i freeze and just watch it happen from a distance as if i am totally removed from my body. does anyone else find that hard to cope with or odd to be occuring during a scene?

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