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RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 1:09:42 AM   
Edwynn


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I didn't miss a thing, I was just pointing out to you that the staff are not the problem. The doctors, BTW are not "staff," they are the bosses. Did the instructor in your class actually refer to the doctors as "staff," really?

If so, then that tells us how overly (and overtly) uber-corporate this thing has become.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/23/2014 1:12:22 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 2:53:54 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

We still need single payer national health insurance.




I agree but I don't believe its going to be happening in America any time soon. Whilst the Brits proudly boast of their NHS and single payment NHI, our British government are slowly selling us down the river and have every intention of jumping on the American gravy train.

Once something is privatized its very difficult to un-privatize it.




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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 2:57:50 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		A book that should be required reading for every American as well as those Brits who are gravely concerned about their NHS and where its going is, "Deadly spin" by Wendell Potter. The author is a man who worked for the industries spin machine on medical insurance and who now speaks out against what he considers to be an evil system built and sustained on greed. This author highlights the dirty tricks insurance industry employs and the big cartel of for-profit corporations and shareholders.


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RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 4:31:48 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Lack of insurance hasn't killed a single person. Whatever disease state is what kills people. Health insurance is only a way to finance paying for care, which can only extend your life (ignoring unintentional deaths caused by medicine).

So bullets dont kill people they cause massive bleeding and the heart stops, which is actually what caused the death?


A bullet by itself does not cause that stuff, Lucy. It can not act on it's own. Even a bullet in a gun can not kill someone on its own. There has to be some interaction with the gun, intentional or not, to cause it to go off. That interaction is what kills people. Did bullets, guns, or Adam Lanza kill those kids at Sandy Hook Elementary School? While many on the Left in the US will blame the guns, the guns didn't act on their own accord. Adam Lanza killed the kids. He used a gun to shoot bullets to create the disease state (massive bleeding, etc.).

Can owning a health insurance policy actually prevent a disease state? No, it can not. There still needs to be some sort of human action taken. Access is available to everyone, though the financing of said access is aided by insurance. If the cost of medical care was lower (the unit prices of services and treatments), there would be less need for insurance, and insurance itself would cost less.

Could an American in Germany pay out of pocket for medical services rendered? Absolutely. Are the costs different for the American than for the German health care system? I'd be surprised if they were. I've mentioned before that I had a friend working in Germany for his American employer. While there, he was not covered by the German national health care, but by whichever insurance company his employer used. He had several procedures and services done while there (unplanned, and not elective). They didn't know how to bill his insurance company, and it was finally determined that he had to pay out of pocket, and send the bills in to his insurance company for reimbursement. He was shocked at the low cost for all the stuff he had done (and without ridiculous wait times) and had no problem paying out of pocket (though there was an issue with them not taking a credit card, but that's a different issue). He was reimbursed without any questions from his insurance company, according to the policy's coverage, within a month. In that instance, there wasn't really a need for insurance, as the cost of care was low enough that he could have paid out of pocket, which would be the case in the US, if the unit cost of care was lower.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 5:39:36 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Lack of insurance hasn't killed a single person. Whatever disease state is what kills people. Health insurance is only a way to finance paying for care, which can only extend your life (ignoring unintentional deaths caused by medicine).

So bullets dont kill people they cause massive bleeding and the heart stops, which is actually what caused the death?


A bullet by itself does not cause that stuff, Lucy. It can not act on it's own. Even a bullet in a gun can not kill someone on its own. There has to be some interaction with the gun, intentional or not, to cause it to go off. That interaction is what kills people. Did bullets, guns, or Adam Lanza kill those kids at Sandy Hook Elementary School? While many on the Left in the US will blame the guns, the guns didn't act on their own accord. Adam Lanza killed the kids. He used a gun to shoot bullets to create the disease state (massive bleeding, etc.).

Can owning a health insurance policy actually prevent a disease state? No, it can not. There still needs to be some sort of human action taken. Access is available to everyone, though the financing of said access is aided by insurance. If the cost of medical care was lower (the unit prices of services and treatments), there would be less need for insurance, and insurance itself would cost less.

Could an American in Germany pay out of pocket for medical services rendered? Absolutely. Are the costs different for the American than for the German health care system? I'd be surprised if they were. I've mentioned before that I had a friend working in Germany for his American employer. While there, he was not covered by the German national health care, but by whichever insurance company his employer used. He had several procedures and services done while there (unplanned, and not elective). They didn't know how to bill his insurance company, and it was finally determined that he had to pay out of pocket, and send the bills in to his insurance company for reimbursement. He was shocked at the low cost for all the stuff he had done (and without ridiculous wait times) and had no problem paying out of pocket (though there was an issue with them not taking a credit card, but that's a different issue). He was reimbursed without any questions from his insurance company, according to the policy's coverage, within a month. In that instance, there wasn't really a need for insurance, as the cost of care was low enough that he could have paid out of pocket, which would be the case in the US, if the unit cost of care was lower.



Theres more to healthcare than just illness, if there wasnt, ER rooms would be much quieter,
If you cant afford the decent treatment and followup, yes not having the wherewithal to pay for prevention of further injuries, or exacerbating old problems, it will deny you the chance to fight the disease, dont keep using that as a bloody excuse.

If that chap who died of ebola in texas had had insurance, things could have been far different. He would not have been sent home.

I had a friend who got MRSA after a car accident where his leg was amputated. As a result, he lost his job, more of his thigh to stop it spreading. After the second emergency intervention(amputation) They sent him home with some meds, explaining they needed the bed(he had no insurance) but he couldnt afford the refills, he died of the infection, yes, but not having the money to provide preventative hc, went a LONG way to being behind his death.



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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 5:45:58 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I just find it hard to believe there is going to be profit in $8k. Even if $8k was the cost of production, you're trumpeting them charging a 175% markup on their goods. That certainly doesn't sound fair, now, does it?

How do you know what manufacturer's cost is on a scanner? You would have to know that to be able to say what is hard to believe or not. But after that, are you now saying that a mark-up of 175% would be "fair" in a discussion you started about why healthcare costs in the US are so high?


The claim was made that the company was making profits selling at $8k. I didn't make the statement, I just responded to it. I also stated that a 175% markup didn't sound fair, so, how is it you're thinking I'm making the claim that it is?

quote:

quote:

So, you don't have any proof (because the data wasn't recorded) that costs drop. Got it. Thanks for the honesty.
When were records kept? 1980? If so, there should be proof in Australia's switch over...

Let's ask this; do you think that a truly single-payer system here would merely hold the out-sized cost of US healthcare to remaining at 'only' 50% above the next nearest country's cost of healthcare, as it is now?


I don't know what it would do. That's my point. There isn't anything showing that there would be a decrease in costs after changing over. If you have data showing it, please, by all means, present it. That the costs are different now doesn't mean anything other than the costs are different now.

quote:

quote:

Again, horseshit. If you buy 1M units, it still costs X to make. You won't be able to drop the price below X for very long before you have to close your doors. Bulk buying or not. If you sell at a loss, making it up in the number of units only makes it worse.

How do you know they dropped the price below X? Again, you speak as though you actually know the cost of X, which you have yet to show other than by presumption. You are correct in saying that if the units were sold at loss, then selling more would only make it worse, which itself is proof that they were NOT sold at a loss. Some corporations are suicidal by tendency, but never intentionally. The corporations in question (mentioned below) are neither variety in either sense.


Yeah, you're not reading me right. I'm claiming you can't drop below X for very long, but haven't ever stated that anyone did. If $8k isn't selling at a loss, then $22k might be gouging, no?

quote:

In any case, I haven't read anything yet about GE or Siemens or Phillips or Toshiba about to close their doors because that (or any other such) deal ruined them, and I keep up with these things. The object of most corporations is maximization of profit, as in total earnings, not higher margin for its own sake. It's all about total earnings, however you do it. If you make $283 million in revenue-minus-costs from one buyer and $43 million in revenue-minus costs from another buyer, nobody is going to tell you to stick to the $43 million customer and ignore the other because the margin is better. That's just not how it works, especially with today's wacko compensation packages for CEOs.


But, if you are making $283M in revenue-minus-cost from one customer, you can certainly deal with $-43M in revenue-minus-cost from another, no?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 5:53:02 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
We still need single payer national health insurance.

I agree but I don't believe its going to be happening in America any time soon. Whilst the Brits proudly boast of their NHS and single payment NHI, our British government are slowly selling us down the river and have every intention of jumping on the American gravy train.
Once something is privatized its very difficult to un-privatize it.


I think it might be more accurate to say that once something changes from private/public to the other, it's difficult to go back. We in the States look at it as "once it's given up to government, it's very difficult to get back." That was part of the reason there was such an incredible push to pass Obamacare. They knew that once it was passed, there would be enough people benefiting from it to keep it on the books. That is, there would be enough votes bought by hand outs from Obamacare to keep it on the books.

Reagan put it thusly: "No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!"

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 5:59:48 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Theres more to healthcare than just illness, if there wasnt, ER rooms would be much quieter,
If you cant afford the decent treatment and followup, yes not having the wherewithal to pay for prevention of further injuries, or exacerbating old problems, it will deny you the chance to fight the disease, dont keep using that as a bloody excuse.


The problem, for most in America, is lifestyle related. If we took control of our lifestyles, as it pertains to increasing our health, we'd have much less need for treatments. If treatments cost less, there is less need for insurance to pay for it, no?

quote:

If that chap who died of ebola in texas had had insurance, things could have been far different. He would not have been sent home.
I had a friend who got MRSA after a car accident where his leg was amputated. As a result, he lost his job, more of his thigh to stop it spreading. After the second emergency intervention(amputation) They sent him home with some meds, explaining they needed the bed(he had no insurance) but he couldnt afford the refills, he died of the infection, yes, but not having the money to provide preventative hc, went a LONG way to being behind his death.


Thus, my claim that having insurance helps pay for care, which extends life. The MRSA or Ebola is what killed those two. In the absence of Ebola/MRSA, those two would not have died from Ebola or MRSA, insurance or not.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 6:13:58 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Insurance companies are in the game of making money by collecting premiums and not paying out.

The problem with insurance policies is, they often have a host of limitations. Medical insurances often have a hidden cap on drug expenses which isn’t a problem with private insurance in Europe because drug prices are considerably cheaper than the US. (A prescription in the UK under the NHS will cost £8.25 ($12.92) and any drugs given to an NHS patient during their hospital stay will cost the patient nothing.) Even the small print in insurance documents can be confusing and that is why many people believe the bargain policy, sold to them though sometimes highly deceptive marketing practices, fully covers them. Becoming ill is when many people find out that the treatment needed to make a full recovery is exempt on the very policy they previously had so much faith in. People with health care policies die because in a desperate attempt to keep their own costs low, they refuse the full care needed to make a full recovery. I think insurance companies need to take some responsibility for that on their own shoulders.

Its what is not insured that kills people.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 6:16:29 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Theres more to healthcare than just illness, if there wasnt, ER rooms would be much quieter,
If you cant afford the decent treatment and followup, yes not having the wherewithal to pay for prevention of further injuries, or exacerbating old problems, it will deny you the chance to fight the disease, dont keep using that as a bloody excuse.


The problem, for most in America, is lifestyle related. If we took control of our lifestyles, as it pertains to increasing our health, we'd have much less need for treatments. If treatments cost less, there is less need for insurance to pay for it, no?

quote:

If that chap who died of ebola in texas had had insurance, things could have been far different. He would not have been sent home.
I had a friend who got MRSA after a car accident where his leg was amputated. As a result, he lost his job, more of his thigh to stop it spreading. After the second emergency intervention(amputation) They sent him home with some meds, explaining they needed the bed(he had no insurance) but he couldnt afford the refills, he died of the infection, yes, but not having the money to provide preventative hc, went a LONG way to being behind his death.


Thus, my claim that having insurance helps pay for care, which extends life. The MRSA or Ebola is what killed those two. In the absence of Ebola/MRSA, those two would not have died from Ebola or MRSA, insurance or not.





I hear this a lot...if only we would all change our ways to be more healthy...
Its something Ive heard from the UK, Canada and the US in the last couple of days.

If we all did this, if we all did that, if we all ate healthy, if we all stopped buying gas, if we all stopped voting, if we all boycotted walmart
its ALLL bullshit, the only thing we ALL do is pay taxes and die.
Lifestyle related deaths are the cause of most "non violent deaths"
heart disease, cancer, diabetes, strokes.
If we all ate healthy.... yet look at all the people who screamed bloody murder at the attempt to reduce the size of drinks in NY.
If we all stopped voting.... well most americans stayed home at the last election two weeks ago, yet, people are not thinking that they were saying something.
no body can agree on what.
Oh god, yeah, you are right, no illness or accident or bacteria , should ever infect anyone who cant pay for said insurance, thats their own fault, for letting the virus into their lives.

in the absence of illness, yay, we should aim for that, except for people who cant afford the said insurance.
your claim was that "Lack of insurance hasn't killed a single person"
you are right, the virus, or the illness killed them, but it makes the situation a lot worse and its and is even rhetorically disingenuous.
Having insurance doesnt save your life in the US having money to give to bean counters does.
Its a great system for those that can afford it
the rest can fuck off.


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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 6:25:11 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
We still need single payer national health insurance.

I agree but I don't believe its going to be happening in America any time soon. Whilst the Brits proudly boast of their NHS and single payment NHI, our British government are slowly selling us down the river and have every intention of jumping on the American gravy train.
Once something is privatized its very difficult to un-privatize it.


I think it might be more accurate to say that once something changes from private/public to the other, it's difficult to go back. We in the States look at it as "once it's given up to government, it's very difficult to get back." That was part of the reason there was such an incredible push to pass Obamacare. They knew that once it was passed, there would be enough people benefiting from it to keep it on the books. That is, there would be enough votes bought by hand outs from Obamacare to keep it on the books.

Reagan put it thusly: "No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!"


I beg to differ on that one. Why would any government want to go down the socialist type health care route when there are so many billions to be made through privatization? It would be interesting to research the collective big cats behind the American health care industry and relate that to how much muscle they have on American health care policies.

Its very easy to nationalize private industries; in fact the entire national infrastructure in the UK was nationalized immediately after the second world war to make it easier to manage.


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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 6:30:29 AM   
MariaB


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Having insurance doesnt save your life in the US having money to give to bean counters does.
Its a great system for those that can afford it
the rest can fuck off.



This needed repeating because its the truest words ever spoken.

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 6:48:58 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
We still need single payer national health insurance.

I agree but I don't believe its going to be happening in America any time soon. Whilst the Brits proudly boast of their NHS and single payment NHI, our British government are slowly selling us down the river and have every intention of jumping on the American gravy train.
Once something is privatized its very difficult to un-privatize it.


I think it might be more accurate to say that once something changes from private/public to the other, it's difficult to go back. We in the States look at it as "once it's given up to government, it's very difficult to get back." That was part of the reason there was such an incredible push to pass Obamacare. They knew that once it was passed, there would be enough people benefiting from it to keep it on the books. That is, there would be enough votes bought by hand outs from Obamacare to keep it on the books.

Reagan put it thusly: "No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!"


You said it like it's a bad thing...

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 7:01:16 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Having insurance doesnt save your life in the US having money to give to bean counters does.
Its a great system for those that can afford it
the rest can fuck off.



This needed repeating because its the truest words ever spoken.


Big government being in bed with big insurance is a large part of the problem, and Obama just handed big insurance our heads on a platter with his Grubercare scam

Government / bureaucrat control over our lives would be absolutely no better than what we have. Its not as if that would make the hated "bean counters" go away

In fact it would give them the ultimate power over your health and your wallet (via the almighty tax man)

Some of the high costs we see in the US have to do with people living longer and thereby requiring more and more expensive treatments as people age

For solutions, a good start would be looking at ways to increase competition among both the insurance business as well as with health care providers

And eliminate as much government red tape as possible, and cap litigation with reasonable limits

There are good solutions that do not involve giving politicians, bureaucrats and bean counters total control of our very well being







< Message edited by Sanity -- 11/23/2014 7:04:18 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 7:03:35 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
We still need single payer national health insurance.

I agree but I don't believe its going to be happening in America any time soon. Whilst the Brits proudly boast of their NHS and single payment NHI, our British government are slowly selling us down the river and have every intention of jumping on the American gravy train.
Once something is privatized its very difficult to un-privatize it.


I think it might be more accurate to say that once something changes from private/public to the other, it's difficult to go back. We in the States look at it as "once it's given up to government, it's very difficult to get back." That was part of the reason there was such an incredible push to pass Obamacare. They knew that once it was passed, there would be enough people benefiting from it to keep it on the books. That is, there would be enough votes bought by hand outs from Obamacare to keep it on the books.

Reagan put it thusly: "No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!"


You said it like it's a bad thing...


Votes bought by handouts may well completely destroy our society as we know it

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 7:21:40 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Having insurance doesnt save your life in the US having money to give to bean counters does.
Its a great system for those that can afford it
the rest can fuck off.



This needed repeating because its the truest words ever spoken.


Big government being in bed with big insurance is a large part of the problem, and Obama just handed big insurance our heads on a platter with his Grubercare scam

Government / bureaucrat control over our lives would be absolutely no better than what we have. Its not as if that would make the hated "bean counters" go away

In fact it would give them the ultimate power over your health and your wallet (via the almighty tax man)

Some of the high costs we see in the US have to do with people living longer and thereby requiring more and more expensive treatments as people age

For solutions, a good start would be looking at ways to increase competition among both the insurance business as well as with health care providers

And eliminate as much government red tape as possible, and cap litigation with reasonable limits

There are good solutions that do not involve giving politicians, bureaucrats and bean counters total control of our very well being







could you point out where this is proven to have worked?



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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 7:40:05 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

could you point out where this is proven to have worked?




As was so helpfully pointed out here many of the economies that have gone single payer are in meltdown

So I dont think it can possibly hurt

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 7:45:39 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		@ Some of the high costs we see in the US have to do with people living longer and thereby requiring more and more expensive treatments as people age

Whilst we may all be living longer, the US doesn't score very high on the scale when it comes to life expectancy.

According to WHO, maternal mortality rate is higher in the US than the rate in more than 30 other countries and a study that was done in 2010 measured the best care available throughout a country, the US comes 54th behind Bangladesh and comes well behind Bosnia in life expectancy.

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 7:54:07 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Insurance companies are in the game of making money by collecting premiums and not paying out.


Insurance companies are mandated to pay out a minimum of 80% of their collected premiums directly towards paying for care, or reimburse policy holders until that 80% mark is reached. The most an insurance company can keep is 20%, out of which it still has to pay for everything outside of care costs (ie. salaries, bonuses, overhead, etc.). They have to pay out at least 80%. That's the law.

quote:

Its what is not insured that kills people.


Bullshit. It's still the disease state that kills people.



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What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: US Health Care Costs - 11/23/2014 7:58:11 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
your claim was that "Lack of insurance hasn't killed a single person"
you are right, the virus, or the illness killed them,


THANK YOU!!!

quote:

but it makes the situation a lot worse and its and is even rhetorically disingenuous.
Having insurance doesnt save your life in the US having money to give to bean counters does.
Its a great system for those that can afford it
the rest can fuck off.


And, that's why I want to know why the cost of care is so fucking high, Lucy! It IS a great system for those that can afford it. If costs were lower, even more people could afford it (with or without insurance). And, more people would be able to afford insurance.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 120
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