RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it.

RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (Full Version)

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crazyml -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 1:55:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml When laws are out-dated, ambiguous, or simply fucking stupid, the courts have to interpret them.... which leaves determining what the law is in the hands of an unelected body. Where the law is so poorly defined, or so out of date, that weird interpretations come from the courts, it's time for people to put their thinking hats on and figure out, democratically, what the law should be. Except the law doesnt need to change...It still makes sense in todays world Picture this (some commentary added for clarity and humor, pardon all the fucks its been a wonderful day of drinking and debauchery. )... its the 1600's and you have this fuck all government that's bat shit fucking crazy called England, you had some king who killed nearly every woman he married either because they were "witches" or couldnt magically make his sperm give him a male child, you had the religion you practiced changed with each whore he slept with, you had constant uncertainty, you could be spared one day for being catholic, and then killed for it the next... Oh gosh... I think you may be confused about your history. I am pretty sure you're referring to Henry VIII here, and he was around in the 1500's. Odd that you should be so ignorant of the actual facts, since you seem to be so passionate about history. quote: So the people hearing this great news of this new world, said Fuck This Shit and get on this boat risking life and limb, to get away from these crazy mother fuckers that cant make up their fucking mind called the English royalty. So fast forward a 100 or so years, you have these people who risked all to get rid of the crazy and yet, those mother fuckers still have to have their fingers in every fucking pie out there... you want tea, we will tax that shit, you want paper, we will tax that shit. Fucking forget you made it here yourself in this grand old colony you have we are still going to tax that shit, and fuck it all the psychosis has crossed the fucking seas, So we got on a boat for 3 or more months, to get away from these fuckers. We crossed a fucking ocean, DIED from illness and lack of food, and otherwise took some AMAZING steps to say FUCK YOU MOTHER FUCKERS leave us alone.... and they are back ruling us, telling us how to live again telling us whats right and wrong...... weve had enough.... And your forebears were right to do so! I celebrate the 4th every year. quote: So we rebel. and we sit down and we think what did we hate about these stupid crazy mother fucking English, We hated that as our government what they said was absolute, that we as a people had NO say, we were at the complete whim of some guy who cant figure out that being a crazy mofo isnt good for a leader, and our biggest problem the reason why the war was so hard, and why our ancestors in general had it so hard rebelling against this crap.... We didnt have the means to really fight them. They had guns we had pitch forks... Not quite. The locals were pretty well armed at the North Bridge (a lovely spot which I lived 5 mins from for a couple of years). quote: So let it be said that all the people of this great land can be armed, they can have guns because when the government goes bat shit fucking crazy like EVERY government seems to do eventually, they can rebel, they can win the fight against the bat shit fucking crazy people and they can start over... The times have changed somewhat since then. You've had 200 years of more or less stable government, the UK has had 300 years of Parliamentary democracy. So you need to ask two questions, the first is "Are we likely ever to need to rise up in armed rebellion against our government" - And I think there are many many reasons why that won't ever be necessary. Next you need to ask, "Were we to rise up, what would our chances be of winning" - Next to zero. quote: and they put in these nifty restrictions on what the government can or can not do, so the people have more of a choice in what they personally can or cant do, and if the state they live in has laws they hate, they can go to a state that has laws more to their liking... and the government cant say Jack fucking shit about it unless this document says... When a government is democratically elected, the government is doing what the people want. The constitution makes it harder of people to change their laws. I acknowledge the risk of "democratic tyranny", but the very act of making it nearly impossible for people to change their own laws is, in itself, an act of tryranny. quote: you wanna change that document, the overwhelming majority of the nation has to be behind you to make those changes... WOW Its like the founding fathers were really fucking smart, they said fucking england needs to butt the fuck out, and we dont want to be as stupid as they are... The writers of the constitution set about to limit your right to pass laws in your own nation. quote: How about this for you crazy, Stay in fucking bat shit England, enjoy your stupidity of not being armed, of having the most boring porn Ive ever had the displeasure of watching and being ass raped by your government when ever they decide its whats best for you, We are not armed because we democratically chose not to be armed. If we wanted arms, we would democratically decide to permit firearms, that's freedom for you. As for porn... I think we do fine when it comes to porn, but thanks for your concerns. If we are unhappy with our government we vote for a different one, there's no question of being "ass raped". Do you understand what "Democracy" means? quote: Ill stay in America, and enjoy my gun, and my ammo, my face sitting, cum dripping twisted delicious porn.... and when my government says bend over baby, its time to be ass raped because we know whats best for you really we do, I can say fuck that shit... and not... You need worry less about your government than the corporations that really run your country. And.... just so you know, they have been raping your ass for some time now. Perhaps you're just too stupid to feel it? Perhaps a part of you likes it? I don't know. I don't care.

slvemike4u -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 3:58:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u But the rest of us are paying for your easy access to weapons.....the same laws that guarantee you the right to the type and amounts of weapons you desire also make it easier for the unstable to gain access....of course you won't see the connection,but that is no surprise to me But there is a middle ground,since all you are interested in is the right for responsible adults than you should have no problem with universal background checks. As a responsible gun owner you would have no concern about a background check,right ? You mean like the one I submitted to? The one that all gun-buyers in Colorado submit to? No, I don't have a problem with it. Why would I...I have done nothing that would interfere with my rights. But...that's all. I do not intend to give up my rights...as I said...And see no reason why I should. I don't ascribe to the theory of "even if it saves only one life, isn't it worth it?". Because no, in some instances, it's not. I know you won't see the connection to that. But all buyers do not submit to it,that's the point. The "gun show exception" is believed to cover nearly 40% of all gun sales in this country.Now whether you think that % is a little high or not......it's still a rather significant number. Are you saying you have no issue with closing this loophole ? Than lets move on....why would anyone need to buy more than one gun a month,surely no one with legitimate reasons needs to buy more than 12 guns a year...yet the Governour of Virginia can't get that law thru his legislature . Guess who is standing in the way

slvemike4u -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 4:01:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: epiphiny43 That argument (For yet more background checks, many currently exist.) has a fatal flaw. As do most on Either side of the American gun debate. Assuming changing the various US and State gun laws on gun access will substantially change behavior on the street, or what damaged brains and minds do, shows abysmal understanding of the grey and black markets, which are huge in the US and may be greater in other countries than the official markets. You Really need to get out more? If you don't know who to go see to buy sex, illegal drugs, legal but unprescribed to You drugs or most types of guns, people on your block or where you shop most certainly do. And many are known to the police. All street people are living in the black market whether they want to or not. Anyone interested finds it quickly. For better and worse, our society is entrepreneurial far beyond the ability of legislatures and the Law to control. Ask any drug dealer, pimp or real estate developer. There is no way to do anything about underground gun sales until you address the glut of weapons available legally....see the above problem in getting a one month a gun law passed in Virginia.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 8:19:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u But the rest of us are paying for your easy access to weapons.....the same laws that guarantee you the right to the type and amounts of weapons you desire also make it easier for the unstable to gain access....of course you won't see the connection,but that is no surprise to me But there is a middle ground,since all you are interested in is the right for responsible adults than you should have no problem with universal background checks. As a responsible gun owner you would have no concern about a background check,right ? You mean like the one I submitted to? The one that all gun-buyers in Colorado submit to? No, I don't have a problem with it. Why would I...I have done nothing that would interfere with my rights. But...that's all. I do not intend to give up my rights...as I said...And see no reason why I should. I don't ascribe to the theory of "even if it saves only one life, isn't it worth it?". Because no, in some instances, it's not. I know you won't see the connection to that. But all buyers do not submit to it,that's the point. The "gun show exception" is believed to cover nearly 40% of all gun sales in this country.Now whether you think that % is a little high or not......it's still a rather significant number. Are you saying you have no issue with closing this loophole ? Than lets move on....why would anyone need to buy more than one gun a month,surely no one with legitimate reasons needs to buy more than 12 guns a year...yet the Governour of Virginia can't get that law thru his legislature . Guess who is standing in the way I can think of several legitimate reasons for buying more than one gun a month. The biggest one being the simplest...if the purchaser has passed a background check and has the means to do so, why shouldn't they be allowed to do so? And...you've just demonstrated part of the problem from your side. You started off with wanting background checks. Hypothetically, you've had them given to you for purposes of this discussion. Instead of that being enough, you want universal background checks (bringing the Feds in and over-ruling the states). Hypothetically, you've been given those. Now, you want a law restricting the right to purchase the number that can be bought. Tell me that once you were given that, there wouldn't be another law that "any reasonable person" would go along with.

slvemike4u -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 8:44:10 AM)
But don't you understand that the problem is straw buyers...those that can legally buy than selling to those that can't....please google the iron highway if you need further clarification.

BamaD -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 9:04:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u But don't you understand that the problem is straw buyers...those that can legally buy than selling to those that can't....please google the iron highway if you need further clarification. And what "problem" will you come up with next. The problem is that every time pro gun people agree to fix a "problem" as soon as it is passed it becomes "a start" . If you don't want us treating everything as part of a long term plot quit confirming it. The vast majority (perhaps but not automatically all) of the mass shootings are caused, not because I can get a gun but because clearly unstable people a running around untreated. I have long argued that mental health information should be included in the background checks (This would have stopped the VA Tech shooter) but have many (not all) gun grabbers argue in one breath that it would violate their "right of privacy" (an unintended result of Roe V Wade) and in the next blame the NRA for it's lack of inclusion. How about this, include that info in background checks. Enforce the laws about attempts to buy firearms when you aren't eligible (a felon for example) they brag about the number of people they stop over this, but virtually never prosecute. In fact the only time I personally know of someone being prosecuted for this was at a gun show. The buyer, apparently believing in a "gun show loophole" tried to buy even though he was a convicted felon. The dealer kept him busy while his partner got a cop.

BamaD -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 9:06:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u But don't you understand that the problem is straw buyers...those that can legally buy than selling to those that can't....please google the iron highway if you need further clarification. You don't understand. Straw purchases are already illegal.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 9:08:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u But don't you understand that the problem is straw buyers...those that can legally buy than selling to those that can't....please google the iron highway if you need further clarification. Sounds like a problem for the ATF...which I pay taxes for to do their job. Their inability to do their job is no reason for me to give up my rights. And I notice that rather than address the point of more and more laws which I brought up in an honest response to your post, you just keep throwing up reasons for more laws.

slvemike4u -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 9:10:53 AM)
So we should continue to suffer mass shootings because you fear the slippery slope bullshit that the NRA shouts from the mountain tops....well I and a growing number of Americans are sick and tired of witnessing this carnage silently. The Gay marriage rights movement has shown the way....move the state houses and the federal gov. will follow,kicking and screaming perhaps but it will follow We've has enough Columbine's enough Newton's,enough movie theaters,enough work places and enough malls When will you have had enough?

slvemike4u -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 9:13:29 AM)
By the way that incremental advance thing is known as progress.....it's coming to you,and you can't stop it no matter how hard you cling to your penis....er I mean gun [8\|] edited to add: It's 73 degrees in North Carolina today,it will be 28 on thursday....so I'm going to go out and feel some warmth while you folks continue to kick this around a bit.The last two posts probably exhibited that rush for the door I am feeling [:D]

BamaD -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 9:16:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u By the way that incremental advance thing is known as progress.....it's coming to you,and you can't stop it no matter how hard you cling to your penis....er I mean gun [8\|] You must be desperate resorting to the firearm as a phallic symbol garbage. It is beneath you.

BamaD -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 9:18:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u By the way that incremental advance thing is known as progress.....it's coming to you,and you can't stop it no matter how hard you cling to your penis....er I mean gun [8\|] edited to add: It's 73 degrees in North Carolina today,it will be 28 on thursday....so I'm going to go out and feel some warmth while you folks continue to kick this around a bit.The last two posts probably exhibited that rush for the door I am feeling [:D] Translation, stop acting like we want to take your guns away just because we do. And since we like it, it is good.

quizzicalkitten -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 10:19:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u But the rest of us are paying for your easy access to weapons.....the same laws that guarantee you the right to the type and amounts of weapons you desire also make it easier for the unstable to gain access....of course you won't see the connection,but that is no surprise to me But there is a middle ground,since all you are interested in is the right for responsible adults than you should have no problem with universal background checks. As a responsible gun owner you would have no concern about a background check,right ? You mean like the one I submitted to? The one that all gun-buyers in Colorado submit to? No, I don't have a problem with it. Why would I...I have done nothing that would interfere with my rights. But...that's all. I do not intend to give up my rights...as I said...And see no reason why I should. I don't ascribe to the theory of "even if it saves only one life, isn't it worth it?". Because no, in some instances, it's not. I know you won't see the connection to that. But all buyers do not submit to it,that's the point. The "gun show exception" is believed to cover nearly 40% of all gun sales in this country.Now whether you think that % is a little high or not......it's still a rather significant number. Are you saying you have no issue with closing this loophole ? Than lets move on....why would anyone need to buy more than one gun a month,surely no one with legitimate reasons needs to buy more than 12 guns a year...yet the Governour of Virginia can't get that law thru his legislature . Guess who is standing in the way PA You submit to a background check at a gun show, PA you submit to several checks, one for your ccw, one for every purchase of a gun, and another to get a membership at some ranges. If I go to a different state, i have to have it transferred to a legal seller in pa and still submit to the check. PA also has a mental health check, which I think sucks because as a teen you can do stuff you really regret that keeps you from owning a gun in your 40s The problem isnt gun owners or people wanting to buy guns. Its criminals, creating laws, isnt going to magically make criminals not criminals, I mean...

BamaD -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 10:35:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u But the rest of us are paying for your easy access to weapons.....the same laws that guarantee you the right to the type and amounts of weapons you desire also make it easier for the unstable to gain access....of course you won't see the connection,but that is no surprise to me But there is a middle ground,since all you are interested in is the right for responsible adults than you should have no problem with universal background checks. As a responsible gun owner you would have no concern about a background check,right ? You mean like the one I submitted to? The one that all gun-buyers in Colorado submit to? No, I don't have a problem with it. Why would I...I have done nothing that would interfere with my rights. But...that's all. I do not intend to give up my rights...as I said...And see no reason why I should. I don't ascribe to the theory of "even if it saves only one life, isn't it worth it?". Because no, in some instances, it's not. I know you won't see the connection to that. But all buyers do not submit to it,that's the point. The "gun show exception" is believed to cover nearly 40% of all gun sales in this country.Now whether you think that % is a little high or not......it's still a rather significant number. Are you saying you have no issue with closing this loophole ? Than lets move on....why would anyone need to buy more than one gun a month,surely no one with legitimate reasons needs to buy more than 12 guns a year...yet the Governour of Virginia can't get that law thru his legislature . Guess who is standing in the way PA You submit to a background check at a gun show, PA you submit to several checks, one for your ccw, one for every purchase of a gun, and another to get a membership at some ranges. If I go to a different state, i have to have it transferred to a legal seller in pa and still submit to the check. PA also has a mental health check, which I think sucks because as a teen you can do stuff you really regret that keeps you from owning a gun in your 40s The problem isnt gun owners or people wanting to buy guns. Its criminals, creating laws, isnt going to magically make criminals not criminals, I mean... You can get verification that the mental health issue no longer exists and regain you right to buy a firearm. See the court ruling that caused the Psyhcos can have guns thread. The OP misrepresented the ruling (big surprise) but it clearly stated that you have to be allowed to challenge disqualifying factors and demonstrate that they no longer exist.

slvemike4u -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 10:59:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u But the rest of us are paying for your easy access to weapons.....the same laws that guarantee you the right to the type and amounts of weapons you desire also make it easier for the unstable to gain access....of course you won't see the connection,but that is no surprise to me But there is a middle ground,since all you are interested in is the right for responsible adults than you should have no problem with universal background checks. As a responsible gun owner you would have no concern about a background check,right ? You mean like the one I submitted to? The one that all gun-buyers in Colorado submit to? No, I don't have a problem with it. Why would I...I have done nothing that would interfere with my rights. But...that's all. I do not intend to give up my rights...as I said...And see no reason why I should. I don't ascribe to the theory of "even if it saves only one life, isn't it worth it?". Because no, in some instances, it's not. I know you won't see the connection to that. But all buyers do not submit to it,that's the point. The "gun show exception" is believed to cover nearly 40% of all gun sales in this country.Now whether you think that % is a little high or not......it's still a rather significant number. Are you saying you have no issue with closing this loophole ? Than lets move on....why would anyone need to buy more than one gun a month,surely no one with legitimate reasons needs to buy more than 12 guns a year...yet the Governour of Virginia can't get that law thru his legislature . Guess who is standing in the way PA You submit to a background check at a gun show, PA you submit to several checks, one for your ccw, one for every purchase of a gun, and another to get a membership at some ranges. If I go to a different state, i have to have it transferred to a legal seller in pa and still submit to the check. PA also has a mental health check, which I think sucks because as a teen you can do stuff you really regret that keeps you from owning a gun in your 40s The problem isnt gun owners or people wanting to buy guns. Its criminals, creating laws, isnt going to magically make criminals not criminals, I mean... PA is not the only state in the union....I'm surprised you didn't know that [8\|]

slvemike4u -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 11:30:53 AM)
If the pro gun lobby continues it's obstructionist bent,crying "they are coming for your guns" at every turn....the inevitable carnage will continue unabated till the inevitable tipping point. Stymie every reasonable conversation,keep seeing it as a black and white issue and we just might reach that very same conclusion...That doesn't have to happen The gun lobby and the gun industry would do themselves a favor and help fashion a national reaction to the carnage that still protects the law abiding enthusiast. Reasonable legislation is out there ,the gun lobby must fight for that, lest their nightmare scenario becomes a self-fulfilling reality.

stef -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 11:45:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You must be desperate resorting to the firearm as a phallic symbol garbage. It is beneath you. No, that's his default level.

BamaD -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 11:48:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u If the pro gun lobby continues it's obstructionist bent,crying "they are coming for your guns" at every turn....the inevitable carnage will continue unabated till the inevitable tipping point. Stymie every reasonable conversation,keep seeing it as a black and white issue and we just might reach that very same conclusion...That doesn't have to happen The gun lobby and the gun industry would do themselves a favor and help fashion a national reaction to the carnage that still protects the law abiding enthusiast. Reasonable legislation is out there ,the gun lobby must fight for that, lest their nightmare scenario becomes a self-fulfilling reality. I have heard this before, give them to us a little at a time or we will take them all at once. You give us no reason to compromise as each compromise will just lead to another demand.

epiphiny43 -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 11:54:08 AM)
An argument that has some merit. We are seeing most state and local jurisdictions Cut Back on incarcerations as the tax base (us) is overburdened paying for prisons and the law enforcement infrastructure now, if you listen to much public discussion. Those costs may be less than the crimes cost society? We don't see that in tax bills. What did work great was the ONE city where the local DA and the Federal Attorney General? actually worked together on any gun crime or possession arrest. The street crime guys stopped carrying pretty much as any arrest meant hard time in a Federal pen. Expecting ambitious legal system politicians (ANY DA or AG?) to actually share credit or efforts by cooperation is probably delusional?

slvemike4u -> RE: Why would you want to chip away at the 2nd amendment instead of trying to repeal it. (1/4/2015 12:10:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stef quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You must be desperate resorting to the firearm as a phallic symbol garbage. It is beneath you. No, that's his default level. I'll take that as a compliment,coming from you and all that [:)]

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