Another "successful" carry story (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 3:49:07 PM)

Toddler reaches into purse and gun goes off, killing mom
KREM-TV, Spokane, Wash.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/30/woman-shot-with-own-gun/21062089/

Another happy story about how carrying firearms makes us all safer.

Oh, and about how careful gun-owners are about safety.



bounty44 -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 4:52:32 PM)

for every story like that one, which is horrible, there are more stories of gun owners being made more safe by virtue of having and/or using a gun.

despite this accident, on the whole, the least safe population when it comes to guns are overwhelmingly the criminals who find themselves on the wrong end of one.

if you value life, which is supposedly your premise here, then how ironic is it that you cannot give people the grace to protect themselves by owning guns.

the real and better question here is, why do liberals hate guns so much?



Kirata -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 5:17:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Another happy story about how carrying firearms makes us all safer.

Arguing the broad case from cherry-picked instances ought to be beneath you.

Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies. ~Source

K.




slvemike4u -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 5:20:25 PM)

No ,that isn't the real question here .
Not even close.
The evidence is overwhelming,guns in the home make the residents of that home LESS safe,you could look at the statistics,but that would disabuse you of your preconceptions.
So you won't do that.



Kirata -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 5:46:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

The evidence is overwhelming,guns in the home make the residents of that home LESS safe,you could look at the statistics,but that would disabuse you of your preconceptions.

You're just repeating anti-gun crap. If you want to get in touch with reality, see here, here, and here.

K.





kdsub -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 5:49:31 PM)

quote:

there are more stories of gun owners being made more safe by virtue of having and/or using a gun.


I hear this all the time... I have tried to find statistics on the number of crimes prevented by gun owners but cannot find them. If you know where I would sure like to see them. Now I can find statistics for children under 14 accidentally killed... I would very much like to compare them to your statistics.

When I say statistics by the way I don't mean some off the wall NRA type website... I mean real creditable statistics like the US crime statistics from the FBI as an example.

Butch



Kirata -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 6:31:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't mean some off the wall NRA type website... I mean real creditable statistics like the US crime statistics from the FBI as an example.

The FBI doesn't keep statistics on crimes that didn't happen. But if the findings of the Institute of Medicine and National Research Council of the National Academies would satisfy you, look back up the thread a bit.

K.




BamaD -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 6:41:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't mean some off the wall NRA type website... I mean real creditable statistics like the US crime statistics from the FBI as an example.

The FBI doesn't keep statistics on crimes that didn't happen. But if the findings of the Institute of Medicine and National Research Council of the National Academies would satisfy you, look back up the thread a bit.

K.



And even the FBI estimates over a half million crimes stopped by gun owners every year.
The infamous CDC reports on "children" killed by firearms included 20+ year olds killed while committing felonies.



BamaD -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 6:43:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

for every story like that one, which is horrible, there are more stories of gun owners being made more safe by virtue of having and/or using a gun.

despite this accident, on the whole, the least safe population when it comes to guns are overwhelmingly the criminals who find themselves on the wrong end of one.

if you value life, which is supposedly your premise here, then how ironic is it that you cannot give people the grace to protect themselves by owning guns.

the real and better question here is, why do liberals hate guns so much?

I saw a story where a 14 got a scooter for Christmas, the first time he went out to ride it he was hit by a car and killed. Might as well say this proves that no responsible parent would get their kid a scooter.



BamaD -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 6:50:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

for every story like that one, which is horrible, there are more stories of gun owners being made more safe by virtue of having and/or using a gun.

despite this accident, on the whole, the least safe population when it comes to guns are overwhelmingly the criminals who find themselves on the wrong end of one.

if you value life, which is supposedly your premise here, then how ironic is it that you cannot give people the grace to protect themselves by owning guns.

the real and better question here is, why do liberals hate guns so much?

Because they represent self reliance, when we should rely totally on the government.



Edwynn -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 6:54:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Another happy story about how carrying firearms makes us all safer.

Arguing the broad case from cherry-picked instances ought to be beneath you.

Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies. ~Source

K.





But apparently one link after another relying on the thorough-most cherry-picking isn't beneath you, which describes everyone of your links, including your subsequent post.

In any case the OP was about an accidental shooting, whereas your numerous links all involved intentional discharge of a firearm in situations of putative self-defense, mostly to rationalize all the other collateral damage engendered thereby even while assiduously avoiding mention of same.

Well, it's not "beneath" me either, so then we have this on stats that actually relate to the OP:

http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/

Just like the report on the 3 yr. old girl who shot one of her parents in a national park last year, because all these "carry" laws have gone berserk top end and sideways, allowing guns now in almost any public place, 'reality' is what seems to trouble you the most.

Considering that these two incidents and a number of others have occurred in public places, should we consider society as being "lucky" that only the parent was killed, when the bullet could have easily traveled to any other person, customer, employee, or wanderer? Or is this just another instance of the parents being stupid enough to have a gun -with the safety off and one in the chamber and available for reach to a small child-, yet 'smart' enough to have the weapon positioned on the picnic table or in the purse just so, so that the inadvertent discharge of the gun would never harm anyone else in a public venue?

Got any stats on that?







Lucylastic -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 7:02:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

there are more stories of gun owners being made more safe by virtue of having and/or using a gun.


I hear this all the time... I have tried to find statistics on the number of crimes prevented by gun owners but cannot find them. If you know where I would sure like to see them. Now I can find statistics for children under 14 accidentally killed... I would very much like to compare them to your statistics.

When I say statistics by the way I don't mean some off the wall NRA type website... I mean real creditable statistics like the US crime statistics from the FBI as an example.

Butch

The below clip was taken here
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_15_justifiable_homicide_by_weapon_private_citizen_2008-2012.xls
\

This is just for justifiable homicide( The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.)
When you consider the murder rate in 2012 was over 14,827
there must be a HUGE gap missing of un reported crimes, or unverifiable figures *unless you listen to the NRA*


[image]local://upfiles/228382/003B9A2CDC874375987A2025A0BD124E.jpg[/image]



slvemike4u -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 7:06:52 PM)

Great Post [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]



Edwynn -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 7:07:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
the real and better question here is, why do liberals hate guns so much?

Because they represent self reliance, when we should rely totally on the government.



So then, your sense of 'self-reliance' equates to both absolute reliance on corporations, and gun ownership?

Not my or most others' notion of self-reliance, in any sense.





Kirata -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 7:17:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

But apparently one link after another relying on the thorough-most cherry-picking isn't beneath you, which describes everyone of your links, including your subsequent post.

Good to see you working on getting anyone who hasn't already discredited you to realize their mistake.

K.



Musicmystery -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 7:24:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

for every story like that one, which is horrible, there are more stories of gun owners being made more safe by virtue of having and/or using a gun.

despite this accident, on the whole, the least safe population when it comes to guns are overwhelmingly the criminals who find themselves on the wrong end of one.

if you value life, which is supposedly your premise here, then how ironic is it that you cannot give people the grace to protect themselves by owning guns.

the real and better question here is, why do liberals hate guns so much?

Your opinion (and attack). There's no good data supporting your claim.



Kirata -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 7:35:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

In any case the OP was about an accidental shooting, whereas your numerous links all involved intentional discharge of a firearm in situations of putative self-defense...

Actually, the OP was about guns making us safer (not). The clue to this apparently obscure fact can be found in the phrase, "another happy story about how carrying firearms makes us all safer." For further assistance, see here.

Addressing that topic, homicide rates in the United States have fallen more than fifty percent since their peak in the 1980's, while during the same time period the number of legal guns on the street has more than quadrupled. Granting that correlation isn't causation, even the dimmest intellect should be able to see that anyone pushing the "more guns, more crime" mantra is either a liar or a puppet.

If there's a case to be made here, it's for better and wider firearms education. The cited accident was most likely due to the weapon being a revolver. Revolvers don't have a safety. Not the best choice of weapon for anyone around children.

K.




BamaD -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 7:38:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
the real and better question here is, why do liberals hate guns so much?

Because they represent self reliance, when we should rely totally on the government.



So then, your sense of 'self-reliance' equates to both absolute reliance on corporations, and gun ownership?

Not my or most others' notion of self-reliance, in any sense.




First I never said a word about corporations, and this from a man who brags about running away from problems ("I have been mugged and when that happens I move to another neighborhood).



BamaD -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 7:42:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

In any case the OP was about an accidental shooting, whereas your numerous links all involved intentional discharge of a firearm in situations of putative self-defense...

Actually, the OP was about guns making us safer (not). The clue to this apparently obscure fact can be found in the phrase, "another happy story about how carrying firearms makes us all safer." For further assistance, see here.

Addressing that topic, homicide rates in the United States have fallen more than fifty percent since their peak in the 1980's, while during the same time period the number of legal guns on the street has more than quadrupled. Granting that correlation isn't causation, even the dimmest intellect should be able to see that anyone pushing the "more guns, more crime" mantra is either a liar or a puppet.

If there's a case to be made here, it's for better and wider firearms education. The cited accident was most likely due to the weapon being a revolver. Revolvers don't have a safety. Not the best choice of weapon for anyone around children.

K.



Revolvers usually have an excessive trigger pull for a 2 year old, my guess would be an automatic, either one without a safety, or, more likely, with the safety off.
Not that it matters.
You are correct we need to focus on firearms safety.



kdsub -> RE: Another "successful" carry story (12/30/2014 7:50:11 PM)

No Kirata... those are not statistics... I want to know statistics where specific instances where victims guns have stopped a crime... not that they were shot at... evidently since they were convicted criminals it did not stop them from doing anything... where a bullet to the head of a child most certainly stops them from existing.

There are very specific numbers on accidental gun deaths of children even though they are vastly under reported... I know for a fact there have been instances where a private citizens weapon has stopped a crime... i would just like to compare the numbers and hoping someone knows where to find such statistics.

Butch




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