Are police unions part of the problem? (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 12:30:41 PM)

At the link is a New York Post article about the Mayor of New York City having a summit with the heads of the 5 cop families - oops, I mean police unions. Union reps are upset that he didn't keep the meeting secret.

http://nypost.com/2014/12/29/de-blasio-calls-emergency-summit-with-cop-unions/

I think the police unions are a major obstacle to police accountability in almost all of these cases, whether they ever get a mention in print or not.

Should special interest groups have the sort of direct power over public policy as we seem to be seeing exercised in the NYPD work action? Should protesters of police policies be turning their attentions to the unions that protect the cops those protesters want to face justice?



mnottertail -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 1:01:48 PM)

Union reps are upset that he didnt keep it secret? That is not borne out by the statement. Maybe just shoot the cops and be done with it.



LiveSpark -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 1:07:00 PM)

I don't know how it works in the US (I know there's Internal Affairs but don't know what that consists of exactly) but here incidents involving the police are literally investigated by the police. For example if something happens here in Quebec the officer(s) involved are investigated by police in Ontario. That to me is a HUGE problem and as you might expect more often than not no or little happens in terms of sanctions.

That bothers me more than police unions because unions are there specifically to look out for the interests of their members. I think that the police itself closing ranks is a bigger problem by far. Rather than doing their best to eliminate the bad seeds their fellow officers cover for them. The unions are quite open about protecting their members at least it's out in the open.

As for the unions being upset about the meeting not being kept secret I'm puzzled why simply announcing that the meeting will take place is a problem. Maybe - maybe - what is said in the meeting should be kept quiet but even then I'm not sure what the problem is.



notniceman -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 1:07:15 PM)


quote:


I think the police unions are a major obstacle to police accountability in almost all of these cases, whether they ever get a mention in print or not.

How is this different from any other union that represents public employees? Or private ones for that matter?
quote:


Should special interest groups have the sort of direct power over public policy as we seem to be seeing exercised in the NYPD work action?

There is not a single public employee union that does not have at least some measure of power over the policies their members are employed to enact. Drivers on the subway, garbage collecters, librarians, all have unions that can influence policy by encouraging their members to act in a certain manner.
quote:


Should protesters of police policies be turning their attentions to the unions that protect the cops those protesters want to face justice?

Ok, in that case should people hit by trucks be turning their attention on Teamsters rather than the individual driver? Should someone who recieves a damaged package from china be focusing on the whole of China, the airline pilots union, the baggage handlers union?

Unions are in theory like public defenders, safety inspectors, and so on, providers of protection to their members, if they are not to protect members, why have unions at all?

How about you trade that system for the UK one. A single union for the rank and file, another for the senior officers that directly influences policy at all levels from the street, right up to central government, and also uses those policies to line its own pockets. e.g. Rather than a speeding fine, take an "education course" that is only available from "approved providers", and guess who gives that approval.



Musicmystery -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 1:14:39 PM)

The Post LOVES to sensationalize the news.

Here's the SAME event -- "Police Unions’ Leaders Air Grievances in 2-Hour Meeting With de Blasio"

Nothing in either article supports your assertion or even explores your assertion -- so why the link?

Mayor Bill de Blasio, moving to negotiate the gravest challenge of his one-year tenure, met on Tuesday with police union leaders who have been sharply critical of him since the shooting deaths of two New York City officers more than a week ago.

The extraordinary two-hour meeting, at the new Police Academy in Queens, amounted to a private airing of grievances between union officials who have long been skeptical of the mayor and an administration that has lately been upended by the killings and their aftermath.

The gathering, to which Mr. de Blasio had invited the union officials, appeared to yield no concrete results, providing no immediate balm for the fractious relationship between the mayor and his police force.

“Our thought here today is that actions speak louder than words, and time will tell,” said Patrick J. Lynch, the president of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association, who has been perhaps the most vocal critic of Mr. de Blasio in recent weeks.
Continue reading the main story
Related Coverage

The meeting produced a series of notable moments, placing the mayor face to face with his most strident detractors — flanked by top administration officials — with no clear objective beyond improving the recent tenor. Among the unions’ complaints were the wide latitude given to protesters in recent weeks and the mayor’s relationship with the Rev. Al Sharpton.
...
Mr. de Blasio emphasized his common ground with the unions, highlighting his reservations about a City Council bill requiring officers to identify themselves during exchanges with civilians and to give a reason for the encounters. He also said antipolice vitriol from protesters was unacceptable and noted that he had brought in a highly respected commissioner, William J. Bratton.
...
The meeting was distinct from labor discussions with the unions. Three of the five police unions have already reached tentative labor agreements with the administration; the city is approaching arbitration proceedings with the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association.



kdsub -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 1:27:47 PM)

In what way do you believe Unions are an obstacle to accountability? I just do not see that as a problem. Yes unions will provide a council for officers accused of violations but that should not hinder accountability.

Now I can see some negotiating on the wearing of cameras and procedures on the use of deadly force for instance but that is not a bad thing necessarily. At least until a problem arises I would give the unions support... Believe me right now police need protection from over-reacting city administrations.

Butch



MrRodgers -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 1:41:52 PM)

The unions are in fact a huge problem with getting out and keeping out bad cops.

Many that have even been convicted of a crime while on duty, even shooting (killing) unarmed suspects while on duty as part of their jobs have been removed and/or fined but then some even reinstated and given back pay under appeal and/or arbitration.

Some unions and their rules are a huge problem...some are not.

HERE

and HERE

Additionally, all of those officers were working in states with a law enforcement bill of rights, and when they were all eventually disciplined, it was by a law enforcement agency other than the one they worked for.

While it's possible—maybe even likely, depending on the department—that these officers would have faced no internal discipline even if their states did not have law enforcement bills of rights, such laws discourage discipline and make it nearly impossible for the public to hold bad cops accountable.

.....and that's just two links. There are many more.



MrRodgers -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 1:49:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The Post LOVES to sensationalize the news.

Here's the SAME event -- "Police Unions’ Leaders Air Grievances in 2-Hour Meeting With de Blasio"

Nothing in either article supports your assertion or even explores your assertion -- so why the link?

Mayor Bill de Blasio, moving to negotiate the gravest challenge of his one-year tenure, met on Tuesday with police union leaders who have been sharply critical of him since the shooting deaths of two New York City officers more than a week ago.

The extraordinary two-hour meeting, at the new Police Academy in Queens, amounted to a private airing of grievances between union officials who have long been skeptical of the mayor and an administration that has lately been upended by the killings and their aftermath.

The gathering, to which Mr. de Blasio had invited the union officials, appeared to yield no concrete results, providing no immediate balm for the fractious relationship between the mayor and his police force.

“Our thought here today is that actions speak louder than words, and time will tell,” said Patrick J. Lynch, the president of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association, who has been perhaps the most vocal critic of Mr. de Blasio in recent weeks.
Continue reading the main story
Related Coverage

The meeting produced a series of notable moments, placing the mayor face to face with his most strident detractors — flanked by top administration officials — with no clear objective beyond improving the recent tenor. Among the unions’ complaints were the wide latitude given to protesters in recent weeks and the mayor’s relationship with the Rev. Al Sharpton.
...
Mr. de Blasio emphasized his common ground with the unions, highlighting his reservations about a City Council bill requiring officers to identify themselves during exchanges with civilians and to give a reason for the encounters. He also said antipolice vitriol from protesters was unacceptable and noted that he had brought in a highly respected commissioner, William J. Bratton.
...
The meeting was distinct from labor discussions with the unions. Three of the five police unions have already reached tentative labor agreements with the administration; the city is approaching arbitration proceedings with the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association.


Poster may have picked the wrong link but the answer to the OP's assertion is yes and yes.



kdsub -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 1:51:33 PM)

MrRodgers did you ever think that perhaps they deserved to be re-instated? Imagine if Officer Wilson, exonerated, were fired by Ferguson. He would need union representation. Now I am glad he decided to move on simply because he would be a danger to his fellow officers and a hindrance to healing in the City... But... being found to have acted reasonably under the circumstances and not prosecuted he deserved a fair shake from the City.

You have listed a couple of examples but there are many others where the union refused to represent officers accused of misdeeds or just gave them advice. Unions for police are just as fallible as any union and just as necessary. If an officer is guilty of a crime the union will do him no good if prosecuted.

Butch




MrRodgers -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 2:56:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

MrRodgers did you ever think that perhaps they deserved to be re-instated? Imagine if Officer Wilson, exonerated, were fired by Ferguson. He would need union representation. Now I am glad he decided to move on simply because he would be a danger to his fellow officers and a hindrance to healing in the City... But... being found to have acted reasonably under the circumstances and not prosecuted he deserved a fair shake from the City.

You have listed a couple of examples but there are many others where the union refused to represent officers accused of misdeeds or just gave them advice. Unions for police are just as fallible as any union and just as necessary. If an officer is guilty of a crime the union will do him no good if prosecuted.

Butch



On the contrary, police officers have been found guilty of crimes and have been reinstated and often...with back pay specifically because of the favoritism shown in union procedures that take the case before other govt. agencies who defer to the police and...not the public.

Drug and alcohol abusers are reinstated even with a knowledge of the govt. offices responsible for removing such a threat to public safety. Even repeat offenders are but back on the job and the cases I sited are only the tip of the iceberg.



kdsub -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 3:02:22 PM)

If they were convicted they would not be re-instated.. they would be incarcerated... if they had a drug problem don't you think they should be allowed to return if they complete a drug treatment program?



MrRodgers -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 3:18:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If they were convicted they would not be re-instated.. they would be incarcerated... if they had a drug problem don't you think they should be allowed to return if they complete a drug treatment program?

What do they all have in common? They were all known by their colleagues and employers to be bad cops long before they came to the public's attention.

Major Joseph Floyd was a problem cop at departments across Florida before beginning his two-year reign of terror in Crestview, Florida. Daniel Harmon-Wright was hired at the Culpeper Police Department despite a known drinking problem, and kept on the force despite complaints that he illegally entered a home and threatened its residents at gunpoint.

At least one of the Fullerton PD officers who beat Kelly Thomas into a coma from which he never woke was accused of brutality the year before. Michael Vagnini's superiors in Milwaukee knew "for a couple years" that he'd been conducting illegal rectal searches. Before William J. Gress beat a drunk and unruly Oktoberfest reveler, he broke a woman's nose and spat on her outside a restaurant.

Seems none of these were 'crimes' for which 'we' would have been jailed.



TheHeretic -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 3:25:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark

I don't know how it works in the US



But you couldn't let that stop you, now could you?



TheHeretic -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 3:47:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The Post LOVES to sensationalize the news.


You might have a valid point, Muse, if every fucking news source on the interweb didn't sensationalize something, sometimes, while you notice and point it out only when it's convenient for you. Your precious NYT is capable of much worse journalistic sins than this. I grabbed the link I did because the Godfather reference was there.

Let's just be clear. I think public sector employee unions should be dismantled and banned. I'd like to completely revamp how public service jobs are done, too, but that's another thread.






LiveSpark -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 3:49:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark

I don't know how it works in the US



But you couldn't let that stop you, now could you?


Ah still taking things out of context bravo!!!! [sm=applause.gif] [sm=applause.gif]



TheHeretic -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 4:02:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark


Ah still taking things out of context bravo!!!! [sm=applause.gif] [sm=applause.gif]



You said that you had no context. I took that at face value. Have a nice day.



subrob1967 -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 4:04:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark

I don't know how it works in the US (I know there's Internal Affairs but don't know what that consists of exactly) but here incidents involving the police are literally investigated by the police. For example if something happens here in Quebec the officer(s) involved are investigated by police in Ontario. That to me is a HUGE problem and as you might expect more often than not no or little happens in terms of sanctions.

That bothers me more than police unions because unions are there specifically to look out for the interests of their members. I think that the police itself closing ranks is a bigger problem by far. Rather than doing their best to eliminate the bad seeds their fellow officers cover for them. The unions are quite open about protecting their members at least it's out in the open.

As for the unions being upset about the meeting not being kept secret I'm puzzled why simply announcing that the meeting will take place is a problem. Maybe - maybe - what is said in the meeting should be kept quiet but even then I'm not sure what the problem is.


In Chicago there is a civilian investigation unit that isn't under the direction or command of the CPD that investigates complaints against the police.



LiveSpark -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 4:09:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark

I don't know how it works in the US (I know there's Internal Affairs but don't know what that consists of exactly) but here incidents involving the police are literally investigated by the police. For example if something happens here in Quebec the officer(s) involved are investigated by police in Ontario. That to me is a HUGE problem and as you might expect more often than not no or little happens in terms of sanctions.

That bothers me more than police unions because unions are there specifically to look out for the interests of their members. I think that the police itself closing ranks is a bigger problem by far. Rather than doing their best to eliminate the bad seeds their fellow officers cover for them. The unions are quite open about protecting their members at least it's out in the open.

As for the unions being upset about the meeting not being kept secret I'm puzzled why simply announcing that the meeting will take place is a problem. Maybe - maybe - what is said in the meeting should be kept quiet but even then I'm not sure what the problem is.


In Chicago there is a civilian investigation unit that isn't under the direction or command of the CPD that investigates complaints against the police.


They keep talking about setting that up here but it never seems to happen.



LiveSpark -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 4:11:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark


Ah still taking things out of context bravo!!!! [sm=applause.gif] [sm=applause.gif]


You said that you had no context. I took that at face value. Have a nice day.


You quoted a tiny part of a sentence how could it possibly have context? But hey rock on bro.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Are police unions part of the problem? (1/2/2015 4:19:34 PM)

I think that Unions (not just police unions) are part of the problem.



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