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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 11:32:29 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckyd0g

1939-1954[edit]

Main article: History of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (1939-1954)

Links to the Nazis began during the 1930s and were close during the Second World War, involving agitation against the British, espionage and sabotage, as well as support for terrorist activities orchestrated by Haj Amin el-Hussaini in British Mandate Palestine, as a wide range of declassified documents from the British, American and Nazi German governmental archives, as well as from personal accounts and memoires from that period, confirm.[7] Reflecting this connection the Muslim Brotherhood also disseminated Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion widely in Arab translations, helping to deepen and extend already existing hostile views about Jews and Western societies generally.[8]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt#1928-1938

That took less than 30 seconds Vincent, and is common knowledge to anyone with basic knowledge of these issues.


The rise of the Muslim Brotherhood and its ties to Germany were a response to the rapid Zionist colonization of Palestine which began in the 1920s and was abetted by the British. I love you guys who begin history at your own convenient starting point.

Collaborating with British Colonialism

In 1917, there were 56,000 Jews in Palestine and 644,000 Palestinian Arabs. In 1922, there were 83,794 Jews and 663,000 Arabs. In 1931, there were 174,616 Jews and 750,000 Arabs. [32]

With the forging of a tacit alliance with the British, the Zionists now received support on the ground for their conquest of the land. The process was described by the Palestinian poet and Marxist analyst, Ghassan Kanafani:


"Despite the fact that a large share of Jewish capital was allocated to rural areas, and despite the presence of British imperialist military forces and the immense pressure exerted by the administrative machine in favor of the Zionists, the latter achieved only minimal results with respect to the settlement of land.

"They, nevertheless, seriously damaged the status of the Arab rural population. Ownership by Jewish groups of urban and rural land rose from 300,000 dunums in 1929 [67,000 acres] to 1,250,000 dunums in 1930 [280,000 acres]. The purchased land was insignificant from the point of view of mass colonization and of the settlement of the "Jewish problem." But the expropriation of one million dunums - almost one third of the agricultural land - led to a severe impoverishment of Arab peasants and Bedouins.

"By 1931, 20,000 peasant families had been evicted by the Zionists. Furthermore, agricultural life in the underdeveloped world, and the Arab world in particular, is not merely a mode of production, but equally a way of social, religious and ritual life. Thus, in addition to the loss of land, Arab rural society was being destroyed by the process of colonization." [33]

British imperialism promoted the economic destabilization of the indigenous Palestinian economy. The Mandatory Government granted a privileged status to Jewish capital, awarding it 90% of the concessions in Palestine. This enabled the Zionists to gain control of the economic infrastructure (road projects, Dead Sea minerals, electricity, ports, etc.).

By 1935, Zionists controlled 872 of a total of 1,212 industrial firms in Palestine. Imports related to Zionist industries were exempted from taxes. Discriminatory work laws were passed against the Arab workforce resulting in large scale unemployment and a substandard existence for those who were able to find employment.


Little wonder an insurgency developed. Little wonder the Palestinians are impoverished. And little wonder Israel is hated in the Arab world.

The references to Mein Kamp and the Elders of Zion are irrelevant in 2015 and serve only to inflame old fears of anti-Semitism when there were very real political and economic issues that motivated the Brotherhood.

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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 11:51:00 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vincent we agree on so many subjects but not this one and it surprises me. I am trying to understand why you are so adamant in condemning just one side in this conflict. It is like a sports writer reporting on a 38 to 36 football score but only writing about the winning team with no mention at all of the losers. Is it because you think not enough people are aware of the atrocities committed against the Palestinian people by Israel? Or… do you think there is no blame to be shared by the Palestinians?

I am not being a smart ass but really want to understand you and where you stand. I just do not think you are an anti-Semitic like tweak and I seem to remember you with a more moderate position in the past. But of late you seem to refuse to understand that there are few true innocents in this conflict and that a resolution of peace will only be achieved by concessions from both sides.

Maybe it is just me, that is refusing to keep score between two sides equally at fault, that has the wrong idea on what is useful and what is not when it comes to the rhetoric of this mess and what it will take to solve it.

Butch

Butch, it is your assumption they are equally at fault. We differ on that essential point.

If the article I linked above does not arouse your curiosity I suggest you read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe (an Israeli historian) and/or "Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel" by Max Blumenthal.

Blumenthal especially opened my eyes.

Tweak is not anti-Semitic. I hope you did not mean that.

Next you will be telling me the Cherokee and the Sioux share equal guilt for the taking of their land by America.


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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 12:53:44 PM   
Moderator3


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I've been accused of protecting certain posters. Watch out, I'm going to be mean to everyone! I thought I was, but clearly I haven't been.

Actually, I'm laughing good on that one. I can't wait to hear what they say when I actually respond to that, but here's your chance. If you think I have favored anyone or have otherwise been a bad mod, do please start one thread in the Everything Else Wicked forum with your complaints or input. I will give you 12 hours. You may express your complaints or speak your mind in a constructive manner. Socks will be lost in the dryer, I am telling you that now.

The reason for the section? You are allowed more freedom there. You aren't going to get bashed in the head for speaking your mind. Go overboard too far and that may be a problem. I said constructively and lately people have taken advantage of some freedoms. So, I do have to draw a line in the sand at some point when discussion cannot be had. I do hope you understand.

< Message edited by Moderator3 -- 1/26/2015 1:02:31 PM >


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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 3:03:29 PM   
luckyd0g


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Vincent, your pro ISIS website is nonsense. Pro death to all unbelievers, especially shia. It is frankly laughable.

You did not in anyway disprove the historical ties of hamas (which is part of an international jihadi movement, with historical ties to the actual nazi party ). And you declare that modern statements of anti-Semitism are irrelevant. ...

And your "defense" of anti-Semitism is based on the international nature of the jihad, while you and tweak consistently deny any out side linkage.

You are lying and being inconsistent in your defense of an anti-Semitic, jihadis movement, that let's it's own kids freeze to death.

Why?

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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 3:04:47 PM   
luckyd0g


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Nm

< Message edited by luckyd0g -- 1/26/2015 3:06:39 PM >

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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 3:26:38 PM   
luckyd0g


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Mod 3 asked me to post this, I have no idea why. I will take it down as soon as he/ she sees it. I don't want to post garbage like this. I support full robust discussion, but think sexually denigrating other posters is way over the line.

< Message edited by luckyd0g -- 1/26/2015 3:31:30 PM >

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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 3:29:04 PM   
Moderator3


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Thank you for proving your point. I will have tech get on that word filter problem as soon as they can and I will add more variances to the word.

Those two words are not to be used on the forum.

< Message edited by Moderator3 -- 1/26/2015 3:30:59 PM >


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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 3:50:33 PM   
kdsub


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Vincent why do you pick a moment in history to justify ownership of the land by the Palestinians yet then deny the Jews the same opportunity? The Jews could pick a time long before Palestine to claim ownership of the land. Can you not see where history a hundred years ago means nothing… history a thousand years ago means nothing… the history of yesterday means nothing… Only the future means anything. Using history to justify anything is a failed strategy.

Vincent this tragedy can only end two ways. A military conquest resulting in a genocide of one group of people… or …a negotiated peace with compromises on both sides.

Now imagine yourself setting at a table to negotiate a settlement and vomiting your hate and one sided rhetoric… Do you realistically think that you and the tweaks of this world will be able to help these two sides come to an agreement? Not hardly… it will take people that see the war from both sides to have any chance of ending this. I don’t claim to have the answers but I know for a certainty that your rhetoric is NOT the answer.

When you started this thread trying to get a rise out of people you found most agreed with you….sooo you could not resist bringing up the same one sided condemnation of Israel without mention of the reasons behind those actions. It’s not as if Israel does not deserve condemnation for these settlements… I am all for economic sanctions, serious ones, to force a change of course in Israel. But I am also for sanctions against the Palestinians and ANY ally that supports indiscriminate rocket attacks or suicide bombs or killings of Jews by the Palestinian state sanctioned operatives.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/26/2015 4:02:26 PM >


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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 4:42:50 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckyd0g

1939-1954[edit]

Main article: History of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (1939-1954)

Links to the Nazis began during the 1930s and were close during the Second World War, involving agitation against the British, espionage and sabotage, as well as support for terrorist activities orchestrated by Haj Amin el-Hussaini in British Mandate Palestine, as a wide range of declassified documents from the British, American and Nazi German governmental archives, as well as from personal accounts and memoires from that period, confirm.[7] Reflecting this connection the Muslim Brotherhood also disseminated Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion widely in Arab translations, helping to deepen and extend already existing hostile views about Jews and Western societies generally.[8]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt#1928-1938

That took less than 30 seconds Vincent, and is common knowledge to anyone with basic knowledge of these issues.



It seems that either you cant understand your own post above, or you have forgotten your actual claim. bolded below. They cant both be correct unless they had time machines in the 20s and 30s. The link says WW2 your claim says pre WW2

and that the Muslim Brotherhood, was developed, funded, and given organizational assistance by the actual Nazis pre WW2.

It is also telling that neither yourself or Butch wish to comment on the topic at hand, ethnic cleansing.

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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 4:48:23 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckyd0g

Ps, on the previous page you say that Hamas rule (winning an election, ignoring the judiciary, murdering their political opponent, and cancelling further elections) is Democracy.

That is how hamas got to the position of power they now hold. Basic, incontrovertible facts.

As is that Hamas is an internationalist Jihadi group, a wing of the Muslim brotherhood.

and that the Muslim Brotherhood, was developed, funded, and given organizational assistance by the actual Nazis pre WW2.

and that it is a virulently anti-Semitic organization.

The idea that someone would think that is democracy is sad.



Lucky, stop being a prick and inserting words to look like I said them. I didnt.
I have bolded the part you maliciously inserted so everyone can see what I am on about

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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 5:00:56 PM   
luckyd0g


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It helps to have some knowledge of the subject at hand.

In September 1937, Adolf Eichmann and another SS officer carried out an exploratory mission in the Middle East lasting several weeks, and including a friendly productive visit with the Grand Mufti. It was after that visit, in fact, that the Mufti went on the Nazi payroll as a Nazi agent and propagandist. During the Great Arab Revolt of 1936-39, which al-Husseini helped organize and which Germany funded, the swastika was used as a mark of identity on Arabic leaflets and graffiti. Arab children welcomed each other with the Hitler salute, and a sea of German flags and pictures of Hitler were displayed at celebrations. 

The mufti was a Muslim brotherhood member, and later joined the SS and gave speeches praising Hitler s treatment of the jews.

I have commented on the anti semetic group you support publicly pledging ethnic cleansing of the planet of Jews several times.

You call it democracy.

That you are going for a silly nit-pic is evidence you know my point was correct.

It is true I was using 41 as the start of ww2. But it is common knowledge that the nazi were organizing in Egypt and palestine in the early mid 30s. It is true that the wiki link did not have that information on it. Feel free to post proof that the links (which we all are noting you do not deny ( did not begin until after the day Britain feels ww2 started.

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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 5:03:53 PM   
luckyd0g


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckyd0g

Ps, on the previous page you say that Hamas rule (winning an election, ignoring the judiciary, murdering their political opponent, and cancelling further elections) is Democracy.

That is how hamas got to the position of power they now hold. Basic, incontrovertible facts.

As is that Hamas is an internationalist Jihadi group, a wing of the Muslim brotherhood.

and that the Muslim Brotherhood, was developed, funded, and given organizational assistance by the actual Nazis pre WW2.

and that it is a virulently anti-Semitic organization.

The idea that someone would think that is democracy is sad.



Lucky, stop being a prick and inserting words to look like I said them. I didnt.
I have bolded the part you maliciously inserted so everyone can see what I am on about


That's how Hamas got to the position it now holds.

It doesn't matter whether you say it, it is what factually happened.

And factually you say that is democracy.

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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 5:06:22 PM   
luckyd0g


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Inserting would be me changing a quote by you, I did not do so.

Perhaps you are ignorant of how Hamas got to the position it now holds. Though since we have had this conversation before....


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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 5:10:40 PM   
Politesub53


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Fuck me lucky, we were talking about Hamas (who I have never posted support for) being democratically elected and you wind up claiming I support the Muslim Brotherhood.

I am not nit picking anything, just pointing out what a wanker you are by adding stuff I never said to my post.

You are also calling me anti semite......... against the TOS as I recall.

I have stated often, just as teakable, vincent and others have, that I am anti Israeli policy, especially the ethnic cleansing you fail to address.

It is also clear you dont have a link to what you claim is "common knowledge" By your own admission it isnt in your wiki quote.

Eithiner you are just being a fuckwit or you will be able to quote one post where I have shown support for terrorism.


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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 5:12:18 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckyd0g

Inserting would be me changing a quote by you, I did not do so.

Perhaps you are ignorant of how Hamas got to the position it now holds. Though since we have had this conversation before....





You fucking idiot, are you seriously suggesting inserting words into my quote doesnt change the meaning ?? It wouldnt have been so blatant if you had pointed out to the readers they were your words and not mine.

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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 5:20:06 PM   
Politesub53


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While I am at it, your claims about Hamas after the 2006 Palestinian election are also incorrect.

Anyone wishing to see the truth, and some intersting exit polls from voters, should take a quick read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006#Conduct

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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/26/2015 5:41:16 PM   
Moderator3


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I am rushing to a meeting and cannot clean this up again, so it remains at least for the moment. Please do not quote anything that shows a changed quote. I can view the forum in a meeting, but not clean it.

I hope I am not needed other than for cleaning later.

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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/27/2015 1:27:18 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckyd0g

It helps to have some knowledge of the subject at hand.

In September 1937, Adolf Eichmann and another SS officer carried out an exploratory mission in the Middle East lasting several weeks, and including a friendly productive visit with the Grand Mufti. It was after that visit, in fact, that the Mufti went on the Nazi payroll as a Nazi agent and propagandist. During the Great Arab Revolt of 1936-39, which al-Husseini helped organize and which Germany funded, the swastika was used as a mark of identity on Arabic leaflets and graffiti. Arab children welcomed each other with the Hitler salute, and a sea of German flags and pictures of Hitler were displayed at celebrations. 


Yes It certainly does help to have some knowledge of the subject at hand. Especially as the very thing luckyd0g is condemning the Palestinians for - Nazi collaberation - was carried out by Zionists at the same time.

from wiki:
"Lehi (Hebrew pronunciation: [ˈleχi]; Hebrew: לח"י – לוחמי חרות ישראל‎ Lohamei Herut Israel – Lehi, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel – Lehi"), commonly referred to in English as the Stern Gang,[9][10][11][12] was a militant Zionist group founded by Avraham ("Yair") Stern in the British Mandate of Palestine.[13][14] Its avowed aim was to evict the British authorities from Palestine by resort to force, allowing unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state, a 'new totalitarian Hebrew republic'.[15] It was initially called the National Military Organization in Israel,[1] upon being founded in August 1940, but was renamed Lehi one month later.[16]

Lehi split from the Irgun militant group in 1940 in order to continue fighting the British during World War II. Lehi initially sought an alliance with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, offering to fight alongside them against the British in return for the transfer of all Jews from Nazi-occupied Europe to Palestine.[2] Believing that Nazi Germany was a lesser enemy of the Jews than Britain, Lehi twice attempted to form an alliance with the Nazis.[2] During World War II it declared that it would establish a Jewish state based upon "nationalist and totalitarian principles".[2][17] After Stern's death in 1942, the new leadership of Lehi began to move it towards support for Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union.[1] In 1944 Lehi officially declared its support for National Bolshevism.[6] It said that its National Bolshevism involved an amalgamation of left-wing and right-wing political elements – Stern said Lehi incorporated elements of both the left and the right[2] – however this change was unpopular and Lehi began to lose support as a result.[18]

Lehi and the Irgun were jointly responsible for the massacre in Deir Yassin. Lehi assassinated Lord Moyne, British Minister Resident in the Middle East, and made many other attacks on the British in Palestine.[19] On 29 May 1948, the government of Israel, having inducted its activist members into the Tzahal, formally disbanded Lehi, though some of its members carried out one more terrorist act, the assassination of Folke Bernadotte some months later,[20] an act condemned by Bernadotte's replacement as mediator, Ralph Bunche.[21] Israel granted a general amnesty to Lehi members on 14 February 1949. In 1980, Israel instituted a military decoration in "award for activity in the struggle for the establishment of Israel," the Lehi ribbon.[22] Former Lehi leader Yitzhak Shamir became Prime Minister of Israel in 1983
."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

It is astonishing to read that Zionists terrorists were actively collaborating with the Nazis - who were systematically murdering Jews at the very same time in the Holocaust. It is even more astonishing to read that this group is valorised in present day Israel and one of its leaders became Prime Minister of Israel.

I think that any one who collaborated with the Nazis has a lot to account for, whether they are Jews Arabs or any other nationality. And I am certainly not trying to excuse Nazi collaboration by any one. But it is naked hypocrisy for luckyd0g to smear Palestinians for collaborating with Nazis when the Zionists that luckyd0g supports so fanatically was doing the exact same thing at the exact same time. It is no surprise that luckyd0g's version of events carefully omits any reference to Zionist collaboration with the Nazis. So I suggest one read luckyd0g's complaints in the light of the above facts.

This example of Zionist hypocrisy is typical of Israeli propaganda. So often if one investigates Zionist claims one finds that Zionists and their supporters are engaged in precisely the same behaviour that they so loudly criticise in others. One might also conclude that by their collaboration with the very Nazis who were trying to exterminate their brothers and sisters in Europe, Zionists lost any claim they may have had to the moral high ground, that they are as ruthless and amoral as any other gang of terrorists.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/27/2015 1:40:56 AM >


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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/27/2015 1:49:38 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

. I just do not think you are an anti-Semitic like tweak

Tweak is not anti-Semitic. I hope you did not mean that.


Vincent, thank you for pointing out the truth to kd.* This is not the first time he has tried to smear me with the anti-Semitic label. Previously he has been asked to back up his abuse with evidence from my posts. Unsurprisingly he has been unable to do so. He has admitted that he has no evidence to support his charge. But he persists in his baseless abuse.

As an ex-teacher you will recognise in kd's confused ramblings on this subject the obstinacy of a child who acknowledges all the evidence but for reasons best known to himself refuses to draw the obvious conclusions. I admire your patience in trying to deal with it and coax him towards the unavoidable conclusions - that the side he has been so sympathetic to for so long is in fact the party most responsible for the failure to resolve the conflict, that its behaviour is indefensible, that Israeli is the aggressor not the victim, that he has had the wool pulled over his eyes for years, that he has swallowed their propaganda as truth .

For obvious reasons I can't be bothered.

* Thanks to politesub too for the same

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/27/2015 2:18:22 AM >


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RE: Demolishing Palestinians homes in Jersualem - 1/27/2015 4:34:56 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
.....that Israeli is the aggressor not the victim, that he has had the wool pulled over his eyes for years, that he has swallowed their propaganda as truth .

Unfortunately, a lot of US media has an Israeli bias because the US are backing Israel.

When I compare the reports from the BBC, AFP etc, to the likes of CNBC, Fox, ABC etc, you can easily see the pro-Israel bias in the US news reports.
Most Americans don't look at the media beyond their own boundaries; hence the bias.

Anyone not supporting Israel seems to get labeled as either anti-semite or supporting terrorists.

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