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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:07:09 AM

thishereboi

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Stop projecting.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:11:03 AM

bounty44

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here is the "kool-aid" for you:

do some reading, and then criticize.

http://www.economicfreedom.org/about/what-is-economic-freedom/

http://www.economicfreedom.org/2014/12/02/economic-freedom-of-north-america-2014/

"Economic freedom is the key to greater opportunity and an improved quality of life. It’s the freedom to choose how to produce, sell, and use your own resources, while respecting others’ rights to do the same. While a simple concept, economic freedom is an engine that drives prosperity in the world and is the difference between why some societies thrive while others do not."

you will see that the states, or countries, with the most economic freedom are the most prosperous.

and right, income inequality is only inherently evil when its the Koch brothers. liberal rich people get a pass.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:13:26 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

Kirata, you do realize socialism can take on thousands of definitions...

So can "racism," but they don't negate the Standard English definition. In order to have an intelligent discussion, the words being used have to mean the same thing to everybody. Otherwise you're down a fucking rabbit hole.

You know, kinda like we are now.

So you equate prejudice to official economic terms? Or was this an attempt to actually get an emotional response from me? LMAO!!!!
Uhm, this is like comparing apples and Uranus.

It was an attempt to make the point that we're not going to get anywhere discussing racism or economics or anything else unless the words we're using mean the same thing to everyone. The clue to this can be found in the phrase, "the words being used have to mean the same thing to everybody."

But I don't want to go among crazy people. ~Alice

K.

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Post #: 83

RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:15:30 AM

Staleek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

here's a sort of bottom line that makes talking about this challenging.

to the left, since they are not free market capitalists, income inequality is inherently evil. to the right, it is a natural occurrence of competition.

the left's solution is to get the government involved to make laws, to regulate, to confiscate and redistribute, to punish the wealthy, etc. the problem with that is, and leftists fail to recognize it, is that government intervention (meddling) actually creates the conditions that make it tougher for the poor to gain wealth.

the countries around the world that are doing the best, are the ones who are the most economically free

I freely admit to being a left wing socialist.

I don't hate income inequality, and I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I am quite comfortable with some people being rich, through hard work, good ideas, innovation, or other avenues of actual performance and talent. What I don't like is 85 people owning as much wealth as the 3 and half billion impoverished. I don't like poor people in the UK having to go to foodbanks, or people in the USA getting prison time for feeding the homeless. And I certainly don't like the poor being held accountable for their own condition when it objectively clear that they are victims of the system.

Is capitalism a better system? Maybe it is - but if it truly is better capitalists wouldn't need to make shit up all the time. Be honest about it - say that the dynamic workforce needed to drive capitalism requires poor people to be exploited and even be redundant during lean times, and that it's a price worth paying. Don't say they are "lazy". Say that you believe that the worst people, for reasons of greed and avarice, will somehow work for the benefit of us all and keep a straight face. Don't say that people are trying to be rich just to trickle it down.

“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:22:03 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

here is the "kool-aid" for you:

do some reading, and then criticize.

http://www.economicfreedom.org/about/what-is-economic-freedom/

http://www.economicfreedom.org/2014/12/02/economic-freedom-of-north-america-2014/

"Economic freedom is the key to greater opportunity and an improved quality of life. It’s the freedom to choose how to produce, sell, and use your own resources, while respecting others’ rights to do the same. While a simple concept, economic freedom is an engine that drives prosperity in the world and is the difference between why some societies thrive while others do not."

you will see that the states, or countries, with the most economic freedom are the most prosperous.

and right, income inequality is only inherently evil when its the Koch brothers. liberal rich people get a pass.

Well, that economic freedom contributes to prosperity isn't in question.

The rest of this is more kool-aid. It's you who seem to be saying some rich people are good, others have evil agenda.

What you LACK is any data supporting your left-right kool-aid or to counter the already well-discredited trickle down experiment, which even Reagan's own economic people admitted was a failure.

And to prop up that myth, Reagan quadrupled the national debt and turned the largest creditor nation in the world into the largest debtor nation in the world, a structural deficit Bush and Bush Lite have pushed to still greater liabilities.

Who, in your freedom day dreams, is going to foot that bill?

Oh yeah--everyone, to benefit those bailed out. Redistribution to the top.

Show me that in your simplistic sound byte model.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:24:15 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But I don't want to go among mad people. ~Alice

K.

"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here.”

~ Lewis Carroll

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:30:10 AM

Aibo

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Hmm I give a flat out no to "income inequality is inherently evil" there are reasons for it.
My own income is above average among those in the area where I live.

But this hoarding of resources among a very small group of people, is the very root of a set of problems we face in the world today.
And that few attempt to make up for it by creating funds, foundations and even go in person to do voluntary work for homeless locally or to catastrophy zones may look good, but do that actually make a profound difference that last and avoid the next disaster?

Of course not.

Any society that have a more equal spread of income also works better, since the cost of taxation can be spread on a larger number of people.

The same go for the world economy, the globalization of the economy have in many cases made no difference whatsoever. Most readers of this are from the US, so I mention one example in Mexico where US firms started plants and hired people, after a decade those workers are still as underpaid and poor as ever.

So monetary inequality is indeed a problem that adversely affect any society, both locally and on the international level.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:32:49 AM

Staleek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well, that economic freedom contributes to prosperity isn't in question.

That would depend on the definition of "prosperity". If we mean that it enriches the wealth of our most obscenely wealthy citizens then yes, economic freedom all the way. But if we take "prosperity" to mean the lives of the ordinary common mud dwellers then I'd disagree with the proposition. Look at how the US lags behind "socialist Europe" on things such as health, education, homelessness, income inequality, social mobility, and other markers of how "healthy" a society at large is. In these cases socialist structures around naturally monopolistic services while letting the free market deal with things which can actually be subjected to competition tend to cause more favourable outcomes.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:36:29 AM

Arturas

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FR

I don't understand what the problem is. I and my single parent family were poor, I went to school, completed school, enlisted in the service to earn my VA education and house loan benefits, completed my degree using those benifits, got a job, worked hard to encrease my worth, bought a home with the earnings, raised two families, own my home outright now and look forward to the future. Nothing special. Just the standard "do better in America" plan and one executed decently. Anyone could do it. Many don't. While I was in the service my brother worked a dead end job and smoked pot. He never completed school. Drove a truck until he was disabled in an accident at work, is poor and on welfare. Yet we both had the same opportunities and how we ended up was up to us and nothing and still has nothing to do with any 1 percent or the Government or Wall Street or the "price of eggs in Egypt" nor is socialism the answer for me. Socialism is the answer for my brother but not because he deserves it or should get it but because he did not work for his future and now the option of taking from those who have and giving to those who never tried under some banner of socialism and "wealth redistribution" of course will never be tolerated by us, why should we sit still for it and of course we don't have to because we have always determined our own way.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 1/23/2015 7:38:37 AM >

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:37:03 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But I don't want to go among mad people. ~Alice

"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here.”

LOL! I guess there's something to that. Heh.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:39:08 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

In these cases socialist structures around naturally monopolistic services while letting the free market deal with things which can actually be subjected to competition tend to cause more favourable outcomes.

I have to agree with you that a mix is more sensible than either group of purists would like to admit. I've never considered health care, for example, to be a commodity like soy beans.

K.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:40:38 AM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
None of which is the fault of the successful, or capitalism. And none of which are helped by reducing the successful down to their level through socialism

In fact history shows again and again how your ideals only make things much worse for everyone affected

Where has that been the case? This argument about what "history shows again and again" keeps getting made, but why are there never any real world examples cited? Cuba may not be a paradise, but I find it implausible and quite ridiculous to suggest that things are "much worse" than they were under Batista or any of their previous governments. The same could be said for pre-revolutionary Russia or China. The socialist revolutionary governments actually made things better, not worse. An honest and objective appraisal of the histories of the countries in question would demonstrate this to be true, over and over again.

And even when it comes to countries which are more capitalistically-inclined, there's really only a handful which can be held up as examples of capitalist "success," namely the NATO/Western European countries and possibly Japan. For much of the rest of the capitalist world, the quality of life indicators and overall national standing leave much to be desired. And even in America and the rest of the so-called "first world," our period of economic expansion and prosperity from WW2 until the 1970s took a great deal of government intervention and somewhat "socialistic" policies. If left to their own devices, laissez-faire capitalists would have screwed up the whole ballgame, and America would have ended up in a far worse situation.

As many capitalists and conservatives point out, America is not a truly "capitalist" country anyway, since our system also combines some elements of socialism - which these same conservatives often point out as distasteful and contrary to the stated ideological tenets of capitalism. So, as much as they point to how great our system is, all they really want to do is change it and make it worse.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:45:21 AM

hot4bondage

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Bob Dylan, this month's AARP cover boy(!), weighs in on the 1% in a new interview. Statists aren't going to like what he had to say.

http://www.aarp.org/entertainment/style-trends/info-2015/bob-dylan-aarp-magazine.3.html

The government’s not going to create jobs. It doesn’t have to. People have to create jobs, and these big billionaires are the ones who can do it. We don’t see that happening. We see crime and inner cities exploding with people who have nothing to do, turning to drink and drugs. They could all have work created for them by all these hotshot billionaires. For sure that would create lot of happiness. Now, I’m not saying they have to — I’m not talking about communism — but what do they do with their money? Do they use it in virtuous ways?

Q: So they should be moving their focus here instead of …

A: Well, I think they should, yeah, because there are a lot of things that are wrong in America, and especially in the inner cities, that they could solve. Those are dangerous grounds, and they don’t have to be. There are good people there, but they’ve been oppressed by lack of work. Those people can all be working at something. These multibillionaires can create industries right here in America. But no one can tell them what to do. God’s got to lead them.

Q: And productive work is a kind of salvation in your view? To feel pride in what you do?

A: Absolutely.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 7:53:06 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But I don't want to go among mad people. ~Alice

"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here.”

LOL! I guess there's something to that. Heh.

K.

...it made me reconsider today's time priorities anyway.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 8:08:29 AM

bounty44

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this page here shows the heart of the matter for every single issue occurring in the forum and I hope everyone will please read it.

the question then becomes, how to take two very different and competing sides and have them live together.

http://news-basics.com/2010/liberal-vs-conservative-values/

for my part---and I hope what I am about to say here doesn't discourage anyone from reading that webpage, I just wish all the liberals would move to Sweden, or cuba, or china...

and yes, cuba's doing great...that's why so many of their citizens risk death on the open seas to come to America (economic freedom anyone?) or why people who live there (and other socialist countries) seek high end health care in the more capitalistic countries.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 8:17:58 AM

mnottertail

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I will point out that the 'conservative' view of free markets and whatnot, is a recent thing. Many of today's 'conservative' views are not at all the traditional view of conservatives, because they are decidedly not conservative.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 8:34:05 AM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

Bob Dylan, this month's AARP cover boy(!), weighs in on the 1% in a new interview. Statists aren't going to like what he had to say.

http://www.aarp.org/entertainment/style-trends/info-2015/bob-dylan-aarp-magazine.3.html

The government’s not going to create jobs. It doesn’t have to. People have to create jobs, and these big billionaires are the ones who can do it. We don’t see that happening. We see crime and inner cities exploding with people who have nothing to do, turning to drink and drugs. They could all have work created for them by all these hotshot billionaires. For sure that would create lot of happiness. Now, I’m not saying they have to — I’m not talking about communism — but what do they do with their money? Do they use it in virtuous ways?

Q: So they should be moving their focus here instead of …

A: Well, I think they should, yeah, because there are a lot of things that are wrong in America, and especially in the inner cities, that they could solve. Those are dangerous grounds, and they don’t have to be. There are good people there, but they’ve been oppressed by lack of work. Those people can all be working at something. These multibillionaires can create industries right here in America. But no one can tell them what to do. God’s got to lead them.

Q: And productive work is a kind of salvation in your view? To feel pride in what you do?

A: Absolutely.

It seems like he's trying to appeal to the perceived "higher principles" of the movers and shakers in the global economy, the kind of people with the power to influence governments and change the direction the world is taking. He seems to be saying "Okay, it's a capitalist world and billionaires have all the power. Now, what are they going to do with all this power?" He's asking about their personal virtue as human beings and what they plan to do with their power and wealth. These seem like fair questions to me.

I'm not sure what "statists" would or would not like. But regardless of how the mechanisms of power are applied in any given nation-state or on a global level, there will always be questions about the intentions of those who hold that power.

I think it's a bit naive on Dylan's part to believe that "God's got to lead them," even if there actually is a "God." But I respect his convictions.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 8:48:48 AM

Lucylastic

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dear gawd did we have a cloning accident and no one told me....

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 8:55:34 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

this page here shows the heart of the matter for every single issue occurring in the forum and I hope everyone will please read it.

the question then becomes, how to take two very different and competing sides and have them live together.

http://news-basics.com/2010/liberal-vs-conservative-values/

for my part---and I hope what I am about to say here doesn't discourage anyone from reading that webpage, I just wish all the liberals would move to Sweden, or cuba, or china...

and yes, cuba's doing great...that's why so many of their citizens risk death on the open seas to come to America (economic freedom anyone?) or why people who live there (and other socialist countries) seek high end health care in the more capitalistic countries.

No, crap like that encourages me to avoid reading any of your posts whatsoever.

wtf.

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RE: 1% own half the world's wealth - 1/23/2015 8:58:17 AM

Lucylastic

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What MM said, jeeebus on a cracker

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