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RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/6/2015 10:29:11 PM   
GoddessManko


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Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

It makes every kind of sense. You're seeing this from only one dimension. There are labels you put on others, and labels people put on themselves.


I disagree. Someone operating outside of the law, I hope we can agree is bad. Being a sub doesn't change that. We cannot pretend all subs are absolved of guilt or blame by a mere title. That was my entire point.

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to RemoteUser)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/6/2015 10:53:37 PM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko


quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

It makes every kind of sense. You're seeing this from only one dimension. There are labels you put on others, and labels people put on themselves.


I disagree. Someone operating outside of the law, I hope we can agree is bad. Being a sub doesn't change that. We cannot pretend all subs are absolved of guilt or blame by a mere title. That was my entire point.


Absolution, by definition, requires two elements: an act that is recognized as mistaken, and the pardoning of said act.

You assume the act is recognized. It's not enough to say, "YOU ARE WRONG." The person you're saying it to has to recognize it as well. Otherwise, you've got a hefty opinion that holds no meaning to its intended target, beyond being a personal label for you to describe it for your own edification. If you need it in lighter terms: you can call me an asshole! But, if I don't see myself as an asshole, what have you really succeeded at, other than labelling me for your own benefit?

I'm glad to see you recognize that the label can be as dangerous as it is helpful - whether that label is Dom or sub, Master or slave. It carries implications that we translate on a personal level to equivalate with our preconceptions. How we in turn handle the title given defines our personal interaction, but it doesn't define who we are interacting with outside of our own cognitive definition.

Not to get too literal on you - although I am an extremely literal person, so you're aware if you didn't know prior - but some laws are broken for a reason. Sometimes, laws are not good. (Enter Abraham Lincoln.) So no, I do not agree with you at face value that operating outside of the law is bad, because that simplistic view is way out of my comfort zone. It doesn't take deeper things into account.

To close my counterpoint out, though: I'm trying to stress heavily here that whatever labels you use to get through life, those are yours, they are valid as they pertain to you, and there is nothing wrong with them. That does not, however, make them factually accurate and correct for the rest of the Universe. If someone calls a person 'good' or 'bad', I ask "Why?". Not to be a dick, I ask to genuinely learn how the person voicing the opinion got to that conclusion. And then, I use my own common sense to decide whether I agree with said opinion or not. If a friend tells me that YouTube should be shut down because it's too easy to steal videos, and therefore to steal music, and therefore it is 'bad' because it acts in collusion with piracy, I can honestly say I would look at them like they grew a second head. That theory, however founded in logic and actual practised law, does not match up with my internal valuation system. Some people would think the conclusion is valid and hey, power to them. I can be cool with them and still disagree on that point. But making a face value moral label and calling it right...I'm just not cool with it. I'm not that religious, I'm not that judgmental, I'm not that quick to hop on bandwagons. That's who I am, and that doesn't have to matter to anyone but me. And that is the bones of my reasoning for why you can't just bandy about good and bad like facts. Subjective terms should not ever be confused with fact or reality, however similar they appear.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/6/2015 11:21:52 PM   
DerangedUnit


Posts: 660
Joined: 2/23/2007
Status: offline 		Amen to that.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/7/2015 7:31:01 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
I disagree. Someone operating outside of the law, I hope we can agree is bad. Being a sub doesn't change that. We cannot pretend all subs are absolved of guilt or blame by a mere title. That was my entire point.



There are states in this country where gay marriage is still illegal. So if a gay couple from New York goes to New Orleans for Mardi Gras, do they automatically become bad?

I know a beach community where eating an ice cream cone in public is not allowed. If someone unknowing of this weird rule where to go there and take their cone outside, would they become morally reprehensible?

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/7/2015 8:41:35 PM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

There are states in this country where gay marriage is still illegal. So if a gay couple from New York goes to New Orleans for Mardi Gras, do they automatically become bad?

I know a beach community where eating an ice cream cone in public is not allowed. If someone unknowing of this weird rule where to go there and take their cone outside, would they become morally reprehensible?


Wow, this has nothing to do with sexuality. I'm talking about example; sub is unhealthily attached/stalker/steals hair from your brush to masturbate to, etc. Being sub doesn't make you absolved of "not being a good sub", period.
I was gonna bypass this thread but it just got a little weird with this whole "subs can do no wrong" mentality.
Or milder, sub lies about marital status, sub lies about limits or having little to no care/respect for who Doms them. I have had subs say godawful things about some of the people they let dom them and I know right away their kinks come before anything else, including people. Even if you sub at a play party, I would hope you at least have some measure of "like" or "tolerate" for the person. Not "disgust".

< Message edited by GoddessManko -- 2/7/2015 9:02:37 PM >

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/8/2015 12:19:00 AM   
usememistress775


Posts: 201
Joined: 1/15/2015
Status: offline 		Wow.

We have ranged so far afield on this topic there is now a mountain range, three lakes, two forests and seven towns between this discussion and the OP.

All the OP is talking about is: Do Dominants prefer a sub who doesn't do anything at all to "earn" a punishment, i.e. good sub, or one who goes out of their way to "earn" a punishment because they know that either the sub or dominant in question gets off on the punishment, in this discussion bad sub.

If we have answered this question sufficiently, I still see no reason to question whether or not the abrogation of civil statutes makes any difference when the lines have been clearly delineated as to what constitutes good or bad subs.

Also any sub with pickles on it is a disgusting sub. ;)

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/8/2015 4:41:10 AM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline 		No, the OP asked if there are bad subs. Yes, of course there are. I prefer sweet relish on my subs to pickles.

< Message edited by GoddessManko -- 2/8/2015 4:42:41 AM >

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to usememistress775)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/8/2015 10:22:53 AM   
PixyBell


Posts: 4
Joined: 2/8/2015
Status: offline 		Of course there are *bad* and *good* subs. Sub is still a human, it is but a label. You still have to deal with peoples faults, like it or not.



Pixy



(in reply to GoddessManko)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/9/2015 8:18:39 AM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PixyBell

Of course there are *bad* and *good* subs. Sub is still a human, it is but a label. You still have to deal with peoples faults, like it or not.



Pixy





Yea, or to not deal with them at all. If someone has the emotional maturity of a grub worm it takes a good friend to say "You can do better than this". If that is the best said individual can muster, chances are I won't deal with them. Hearing someone whine for me is the equivalent of hearing banshee screams. But even after that (especially if it's family) I will offer the best advice I can. If they choose not to take it I'm not gonna say "oh well, that's OK! No one's perfect." Uh no, no....just no.

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to PixyBell)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/9/2015 7:11:30 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlabamaPrincess

Is there really such a thing as a good or bad sub? I like to consider myself 'good'. I stay home, keep the house clean, have my Sir's cocktail ready when he comes in the door. I leave him to have his quiet time and wind down from work while I cook dinner, serve his dinner, and clean up after. No biggie. I am polite in public (I don't argue or pout, no tantrums or ill words) etc. That being said, I have seen women who claim to be subs, but are horrible at it. One woman in particular constantly yelled at her husband (I admit, he wasn't a Dom, but he was trying) and talked down to him just so he'd spank the crap out of her at home. Basically he was spanking out of anger, not desire. However, one look from my Sir had her averting her eyes and quiet, only speaking when he spoke, and answering politely. Now I admit, this was her husband's fault for allowing this and like I said, he really wasn't a Dom to start with. My question is though, are there subs out there who constantly challenge their Doms in this fashion? And why?


While you (general you) would struggle to compartmentalise people into the 'good' and 'bad' dichotomy, as with any group there are norms of behaviour and certain traits that are deemed to be poor form.

Reading your post, it is clear that service (whatever its form) and presenting yourself in a manner which reflects well upon your partner, is important to you.

I think these considerations would be generally viewed as a good start.

So, in sum, there are traits which are generally seen as desirable or otherwise.




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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/11/2015 4:47:44 AM   
AlabamaPrincess


Posts: 134
Joined: 2/4/2015
From: The Dragon's Keep
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlabamaPrincess

Is there really such a thing as a good or bad sub? I like to consider myself 'good'. I stay home, keep the house clean, have my Sir's cocktail ready when he comes in the door. I leave him to have his quiet time and wind down from work while I cook dinner, serve his dinner, and clean up after. No biggie. I am polite in public (I don't argue or pout, no tantrums or ill words) etc. That being said, I have seen women who claim to be subs, but are horrible at it. One woman in particular constantly yelled at her husband (I admit, he wasn't a Dom, but he was trying) and talked down to him just so he'd spank the crap out of her at home. Basically he was spanking out of anger, not desire. However, one look from my Sir had her averting her eyes and quiet, only speaking when he spoke, and answering politely. Now I admit, this was her husband's fault for allowing this and like I said, he really wasn't a Dom to start with. My question is though, are there subs out there who constantly challenge their Doms in this fashion? And why?


While you (general you) would struggle to compartmentalise people into the 'good' and 'bad' dichotomy, as with any group there are norms of behaviour and certain traits that are deemed to be poor form.

Reading your post, it is clear that service (whatever its form) and presenting yourself in a manner which reflects well upon your partner, is important to you.

I think these considerations would be generally viewed as a good start.

So, in sum, there are traits which are generally seen as desirable or otherwise.




I think that is what I was getting at....as my Sir says "Find your words" and well, I didn't use the best ones in this case. Yes, 'form' is a better word. But again, as has been stated, I guess some Doms like this sort of challenge, whereas others do not. I do appreciate everyone's input! And for the record, I prefer Wickles, haha (if you've never had them, be warned, they can be addicting! )

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/11/2015 9:29:10 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlabamaPrincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlabamaPrincess

Is there really such a thing as a good or bad sub? I like to consider myself 'good'. I stay home, keep the house clean, have my Sir's cocktail ready when he comes in the door. I leave him to have his quiet time and wind down from work while I cook dinner, serve his dinner, and clean up after. No biggie. I am polite in public (I don't argue or pout, no tantrums or ill words) etc. That being said, I have seen women who claim to be subs, but are horrible at it. One woman in particular constantly yelled at her husband (I admit, he wasn't a Dom, but he was trying) and talked down to him just so he'd spank the crap out of her at home. Basically he was spanking out of anger, not desire. However, one look from my Sir had her averting her eyes and quiet, only speaking when he spoke, and answering politely. Now I admit, this was her husband's fault for allowing this and like I said, he really wasn't a Dom to start with. My question is though, are there subs out there who constantly challenge their Doms in this fashion? And why?


While you (general you) would struggle to compartmentalise people into the 'good' and 'bad' dichotomy, as with any group there are norms of behaviour and certain traits that are deemed to be poor form.

Reading your post, it is clear that service (whatever its form) and presenting yourself in a manner which reflects well upon your partner, is important to you.

I think these considerations would be generally viewed as a good start.

So, in sum, there are traits which are generally seen as desirable or otherwise.




I think that is what I was getting at....as my Sir says "Find your words" and well, I didn't use the best ones in this case. Yes, 'form' is a better word. But again, as has been stated, I guess some Doms like this sort of challenge, whereas others do not. I do appreciate everyone's input! And for the record, I prefer Wickles, haha (if you've never had them, be warned, they can be addicting! )


I think your choice of words were good enough, and mot only do you carry yourself well but you're a princess too; which usually means you'll have a few quid! So your partner is a lucky man.

I've no idea what Wickles are. They/it sounds exotic, and the best we can do over here is things that grow out of the ground!

In terms of a challenge, I love challenges and how do we improve in the absence of a challenge? But a challenge to me is someone with intelligence and high standards.

I suppose at a push I could entertain the type of women with a rebellious streak, but my patience wears thin with these sorts of things and I'd probably just build a pen in the garden and put her in it with the animals.


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to AlabamaPrincess)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/11/2015 10:51:36 AM   
AlabamaPrincess


Posts: 134
Joined: 2/4/2015
From: The Dragon's Keep
Status: offline 		Haha! I'm not without challenge, but it's nothing ostentatious. And yes, the Princess part is awesome....I'm Daddy's Princess, hehe...I said it on another thread, I'm a sub with little tendencies so it's great for me :D I guess I've just never been one to be a jerk to my mate in public. It's just not me. Eh *shrugs* to each their own I guess.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/11/2015 11:37:45 AM   
littleladybug


Posts: 1082
Joined: 5/30/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlabamaPrincess

But again, as has been stated, I guess some Doms like this sort of challenge, whereas others do not.


I think that phrasing it as a "challenge" might not be apt in some situations.

To me, a "challenge" implies something that needs to be overcome and conquered. I'm just about as irreverent as they come with my partner. It comes out especially when I see him starting to take himself too seriously. While some might see that as a "challenge" (i.e. something that needs to be overcome), I have found someone who really does appreciate this about me. While, initially, I know that this took him off-guard, he now accepts it about me and has started to even laugh at himself in some situations. I wouldn't want to be with someone who thought that this part of me needed to be changed and wished to do it. Not only would it be incredibly tiring, it would also end up with both parties having a hell of a lot of resentment.


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/11/2015 1:44:17 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If this woman you've gone out of your way to repeatedly put down wasn't with a dominant, then she wasn't any kind of sub. Because he didn't want that.

If you're assigning blame, which really isn't up to you, I'd split it 50 - 50. Because neither of them took the time to figure out what they needed in a relationship nor communicated it with the other to determine if they were compatible.

For all you know, she might now be someone else's perfect sub, because now she's getting her needs met. And he may well be a perfect partner for someone else, who needs him simply to be himself. So is it her fault that she was starving for her needs to be met and did the emotional equivalent of stealing a loaf of bread to meet that hunger? Is it his fault that he wasn't interested in meeting those needs? Who do you believe should have totally remade their personality to eliminate the unmeetable needs? And how do you believe that could have been accomplished when we know that behavior can be modified but personality cannot?

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 2/11/2015 1:46:40 PM >

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/12/2015 6:46:31 AM   
AlabamaPrincess


Posts: 134
Joined: 2/4/2015
From: The Dragon's Keep
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

If this woman you've gone out of your way to repeatedly put down wasn't with a dominant, then she wasn't any kind of sub. Because he didn't want that.

If you're assigning blame, which really isn't up to you, I'd split it 50 - 50. Because neither of them took the time to figure out what they needed in a relationship nor communicated it with the other to determine if they were compatible.

For all you know, she might now be someone else's perfect sub, because now she's getting her needs met. And he may well be a perfect partner for someone else, who needs him simply to be himself. So is it her fault that she was starving for her needs to be met and did the emotional equivalent of stealing a loaf of bread to meet that hunger? Is it his fault that he wasn't interested in meeting those needs? Who do you believe should have totally remade their personality to eliminate the unmeetable needs? And how do you believe that could have been accomplished when we know that behavior can be modified but personality cannot?


Huh? I wasn't going out of my way to repeatedly put her down. And if you took it that way, then again, maybe I didn't use my words correctly. I merely asked a question, based on my limited experience. Of course, she very well could be (now) someone's perfect sub, and if so, that's awesome. However, the question was, is there such as thing as a good or bad sub.....which I am learning there really isn't. I am not assigning blame, at least, not intentionally. And no, it really isn't up to me to do a single thing except ask questions and try to educate myself. I don't believe anyone should have to completely remake their personality, as that is taking away from the true person.

That all being said, maybe you were or were not talking to me.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Good vs bad sub - 2/26/2015 3:28:33 AM   
tiggerspoohbear


Posts: 19141
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant
<----- terrible Dom.


^^^^^^^-terrible at lying Dom

< Message edited by tiggerspoohbear -- 2/26/2015 3:29:34 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 57
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