RE: Are we heading towards WWIII?

RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (Full Version)

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MariaB -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 3:25:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy I don't have the same the feeling. The fact is, the US have very little to do with what's happening in the Ukraine --- and it's role is a fantasy of Russia's political propaganda. When I studied Russian and visited the country six times between 1985 - 1994, few Russians believed the cooked up news in their own papers and TV. The difference now is, the propaganda is much more audience / sensational / entertainment based than before, that it does stir up the nut-job faction of the country much like Fox News does here. Back to the question, the whole point of NUKES is not to use them but to maintain the threat and fear of their use. So, since their development, there has not been anything approximating a world war since. It matters enormously for NATO and European security how Ukraine is lost. Ill just add, I'm not talking about the Crimea but about the eastern borders of the Ukraine. If the west allows Putin to take the eastern borders it will sharply diminish the security of Europe and of the West collectively. Its Obama who is studying the option of supplying lethal defensive arms to Ukraine if this recent cease fire fails. What Russia is doing right now is testing the willpower of NATO itself.

MariaB -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 3:46:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 We're already in WWIII, and have been since the first failed bombing of the WTC. my prediction is it will remain non nuclear unless Iran or one of these psycho groups like ISIS gets ahold of a Paki or Indian nuke. That's hugely subjective. Recent conflicts in the Middle East (apart from Iraq) would not be considered as fighting acts of terrorism. From Wikipedia's definition, "A world war is a war involving some of the world's most powerful and populous countries. World wars span multiple countries on multiple continents, with battles fought in multiple theaters."

NorthernGent -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 3:56:15 AM)
The trigger for all of this was the EU attempting to absorb the Ukraine into its politics organisation, including angling to depose a pro-Russian president. Needs must with these people I suppose. Now we have the US Government nudging the British Government towards imposing sanctions, which the US government has undertaken. It is a "test of the relationship" apparently. It's a bit of a mess, and in my view the Russian response was predictable and desirable in order to have them look like a pack of idiots and tyrants, and further isolate Russia. The Russians aren't going to stand by idly and watch a country, with which they have historic and cultural ties, being absorbed by a rival power bloc. The equivalent would be Canada setting up shop with the Russians, or for us English the Scots setting up shop with them and having a Russian presence on our border.

Kirata -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 4:01:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The fact is, the US have very little to do with what's happening in the Ukraine --- and it's role is a fantasy of Russia's political propaganda. The fact is, our hands are all over it. And we the United States have been involved, you know, in a very long effort, over decades, to strengthen democracy here... I mean, we are great friends of Ukraine. The United States has a proud tradition here of working with all the political parties... [image]http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2014/02/09/c88be305-5e89-4583-8e6c-2b1d1146f00e_w640_r1_s_cx28_cy6_cw73.jpg[/image] From left to right: Oleh Tyahnybok of the neo-Nazi Svoboda party, Arseniy Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland Party, and Vitali Klitschko of UDAR (Punch). We are in close touch with both the interior ministry, the police, the intelligence agency in order to underline the importance of gaining rapid authority over the instruments of state power. ~Geoffrey Pyatt, U.S. ambassador to Ukraine K.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 4:24:56 AM)
We've been in a war, declared by Islamic extremists, since (at least) the late 70s. WE have failed to take them seriously and we are paying the price, today. It is time to return to our pre-Korea strategies and actually win this war, once and for all. Bring them to their knees, begging for mercy and then, dictate just which precepts of Islam they're allowed to practice. It's time they paid, like we've been paying. Michael

MariaB -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 5:07:42 AM)
The Crimea has been part of the Ukraine since 1954 but like the rest of the Ukraine and all the countries bordering Russian territory, it strongly depends on Russia for gas (amongst other things), Russia is known as a petro-state and the Ukraine has always been its lapdog. As for the Crimea, it clearly hasn’t flourished under Ukrainian rule; in fact it’s a neglected and forgotten part of the Ukraine that isn’t allowed many of the same benefits. The Ukraine should of allowed a legitimate referendum (they had wanted this for years) and if the vote swung in favour of Crimea reuniting with Russia, then that choice should have been given. Crimea is a country within a country, its an Autonomous Republic where the majority of Crimean’s are not Ukrainian and as such, have or at least should have the right to choose their future. Unfortunately, because less than 20% of Crimea is Tartar, these people will have to accept their loss. My argument isn't about Crimea. The Crimean’s don't think of themselves as Ukrainian, they think of themselves as Russians (except for the Tatars) because historically and politically Crimea has been a part of the Russian empire since the 18th century. __________________ Back to the "lap dog"...In more recent years the Ukraine has been trying to break away from Russian dependency by building their own gas terminals for both themselves and with the intention of selling that gas to a viable market. Russia was, for obvious reasons, not prepared to lend money on this project but the US and the EU were. Were we wrong to offer those funds? keep in mind that Ukraine is an independent country and not a part of Russia. The Ukraine is a big country and its stability does affect the stability of Euope as a whole. Free trade agreement would insure that countries stability and up until early last year the Ukraine believed they were heading towards that much needed signature. This is what most of the Ukrainian population wanted. When the Ukraine government went with Russia there was a popular uprising and that government was toppled, not by the west but by the Ukrainian people. We had another version of "storming of the Bastille", who enlisted a new government of their choice. We, the west had no say in this. At the same time Russia started to cross borders into the Ukraine with tanks and heavy rocket launchers. We also know that Russian artillery has been fired across the borders and that Russian backed rebels are being armed with rifles and anti-tank weapons. This is a fratricide war but only one side are armed. Why shound the west not back those who need to fight the Russian separatists? Because we don't want to go to war with Russia and we don't have to go to war with Russia because the Ukraine isn't a NATO country but what happens if Poland, Romania, Slovakia or Hungary try to defend the Ukraine? NATO will be obliged to intervene and that's when we will go into a full out global war. So far, the west has only sent emergency aid for the 1.5 million displaced Ukrainians. Its shown and still shows no eagerness to to pour gasoline onto an open fire like the Russians appear to be doing but Washington and Moscow are making some fairly formidable threats and I don't believe any of us should be taking those threats lightly. __________________

cloudboy -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 12:18:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB It matters enormously for NATO and European security how Ukraine is lost. Ill just add, I'm not talking about the Crimea but about the eastern borders of the Ukraine. If the west allows Putin to take the eastern borders it will sharply diminish the security of Europe and of the West collectively. Its Obama who is studying the option of supplying lethal defensive arms to Ukraine if this recent cease fire fails. What Russia is doing right now is testing the willpower of NATO itself. Why is the Ukraine any more consequential now than it was during the days of the USSR, the Eastern Block, and the Warsaw Pact? I don't like what Putin is doing, but I see little rationale for going to war over a non-NATO territory squarely in Russia's sphere of influence. Countries that promote instability and who are stupidly aggressive usually pay the price themselves. To with: The USA in Vietnam, IRAQ, and Afghanistan. The USSR suffered in Afghanistan and pre-Soveit Russia suffered a disastrous war in the Crimea. So, I'm trying to take the long view here -- that although it looks like the West is "threatened" and Putin is "winning," --- Russia will just lose out in the end by absorbing a complicated, expensive problem on its border that will fester for years.

cloudboy -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 12:47:39 PM)
Having diplomatic relations is one thing --- being the spearhead behind a populist movement in the Ukraine is another. The Ukrainians themselves deposed the President and started the Maiden movement to clean up corruption and join the EU. Neither the CIA, special ops, or anything of the kind got that rolling. There was no US coup in the Ukraine, no "special advisors," or proxies or arms shipments, etc. Russia says that's the case because it wants to discredit all anti-Russian, populist movements that oppose kleptocracy, crooked dictatorshsip, and oligarchy. The Ukraine cannot be compared to: Chile, Guatamala, El Salvador, IRAN, IRAQ, Afghanistan, the Philipines, Nicaragua, et. al. wherein the US exerted a twisted, heavy handed influence on domestic affairs in a foreign country.

MariaB -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 1:21:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB It matters enormously for NATO and European security how Ukraine is lost. Ill just add, I'm not talking about the Crimea but about the eastern borders of the Ukraine. If the west allows Putin to take the eastern borders it will sharply diminish the security of Europe and of the West collectively. Its Obama who is studying the option of supplying lethal defensive arms to Ukraine if this recent cease fire fails. What Russia is doing right now is testing the willpower of NATO itself. Why is the Ukraine any more consequential now than it was during the days of the USSR, the Eastern Block, and the Warsaw Pact? I don't like what Putin is doing, but I see little rationale for going to war over a non-NATO territory squarely in Russia's sphere of influence. Countries that promote instability and who are stupidly aggressive usually pay the price themselves. To with: The USA in Vietnam, IRAQ, and Afghanistan. The USSR suffered in Afghanistan and pre-Soveit Russia suffered a disastrous war in the Crimea. So, I'm trying to take the long view here -- that although it looks like the West is "threatened" and Putin is "winning," --- Russia will just lose out in the end by absorbing a complicated, expensive problem on its border that will fester for years. You have an incorrect perception of the political status of the Ukraine. It was and in fact still is politically none aligned. In simple terms “neutral” the same as Switzerland. Would you be saying the same if Russia invaded Switzerland ?

MrRodgers -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 1:48:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Having diplomatic relations is one thing --- being the spearhead behind a populist movement in the Ukraine is another. The Ukrainians themselves deposed the President and started the Maiden movement to clean up corruption and join the EU. Neither the CIA, special ops, or anything of the kind got that rolling. There was no US coup in the Ukraine, no "special advisors," or proxies or arms shipments, etc. Russia says that's the case because it wants to discredit all anti-Russian, populist movements that oppose kleptocracy, crooked dictatorshsip, and oligarchy. The Ukraine cannot be compared to: Chile, Guatamala, El Salvador, IRAN, IRAQ, Afghanistan, the Philipines, Nicaragua, et. al. wherein the US exerted a twisted, heavy handed influence on domestic affairs in a foreign country. On this one, Kirata is correct and I disagree with you here. The bottom line is that the US alone has spent more than $5 billion...that's Billion on Ukraine. Where does that kind of money go ? It goes to aiding Ukraine separate from Russia (USSR) and its corruption in every way. It is not all 'clean' money. The bottom line in fixing this is easy but tough for the western banking cartel. ALL that needs to be done is cut off ALL western banking transactions from Russia through the BIS. (Bank of International settlements...Luxembourg) This bank serves 60 central banks and would cut Russia off at the knees financially. The problem of course as usual the the greed of the western bankers. They will likely come billionaire-hat-in-hand to sanctioning govts. for a subsidy to replace the fees they charge. Banking boycotts...cost money kinkroids. That's what has brought Iran to the table. The sanctions lifted for their agreeing to negotiate was $700 million a month out of $2 billion a month in oil money...allowed in. Then if need be...stop buying Russian oil. THE BANKERS Rule the world kinkroids and rule ALL international banking transactions.

MrRodgers -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 1:53:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB It matters enormously for NATO and European security how Ukraine is lost. Ill just add, I'm not talking about the Crimea but about the eastern borders of the Ukraine. If the west allows Putin to take the eastern borders it will sharply diminish the security of Europe and of the West collectively. Its Obama who is studying the option of supplying lethal defensive arms to Ukraine if this recent cease fire fails. What Russia is doing right now is testing the willpower of NATO itself. Why is the Ukraine any more consequential now than it was during the days of the USSR, the Eastern Block, and the Warsaw Pact? I don't like what Putin is doing, but I see little rationale for going to war over a non-NATO territory squarely in Russia's sphere of influence. Countries that promote instability and who are stupidly aggressive usually pay the price themselves. To with: The USA in Vietnam, IRAQ, and Afghanistan. The USSR suffered in Afghanistan and pre-Soveit Russia suffered a disastrous war in the Crimea. So, I'm trying to take the long view here -- that although it looks like the West is "threatened" and Putin is "winning," --- Russia will just lose out in the end by absorbing a complicated, expensive problem on its border that will fester for years. You have an incorrect perception of the political status of the Ukraine. It was and in fact still is politically none aligned. In simple terms “neutral” the same as Switzerland. Would you be saying the same if Russia invaded Switzerland ? Politically neutral but applied for EU membership including adopting the Euro as I recall. They had to ween themselves off Putin's bribes and the last govt. wanted to pocket a large part of the first $2 billion in loans.

MariaB -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 2:26:43 PM)
It was NATO they wanted to sign up with and not the EU. The EU however, has just handed over 17 billion during this last ceasefire. ED to say: its currency is "hryvnia"

cloudboy -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 3:07:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB You have an incorrect perception of the political status of the Ukraine. It was and in fact still is politically none aligned. In simple terms “neutral” the same as Switzerland. Would you be saying the same if Russia invaded Switzerland ? Where is my perception incorrect? I don't get comparing Switzerland to the Ukraine at all. How many Russians live in Switzerland and want to separate themselves from the country? When was Switzerland ever a part of the USSR? When has Putin ever meddled in Switzerland? Does Switzerland share a border with Russia?

cloudboy -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 3:13:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers On this one, Kirata is correct and I disagree with you here. The bottom line is that the US alone has spent more than $5 billion...that's Billion on Ukraine. Where does that kind of money go ? It goes to aiding Ukraine separate from Russia (USSR) and its corruption in every way. It is not all 'clean' money. The bottom line in fixing this is easy but tough for the western banking cartel. ALL that needs to be done is cut off ALL western banking transactions from Russia through the BIS. (Bank of International settlements...Luxembourg) This bank serves 60 central banks and would cut Russia off at the knees financially. The problem of course as usual the the greed of the western bankers. They will likely come billionaire-hat-in-hand to sanctioning govts. for a subsidy to replace the fees they charge. Banking boycotts...cost money kinkroids. That's what has brought Iran to the table. The sanctions lifted for their agreeing to negotiate was $700 million a month out of $2 billion a month in oil money...allowed in. Then if need be...stop buying Russian oil. THE BANKERS Rule the world kinkroids and rule ALL international banking transactions. What is your source for the $5 Billion and when and where was that money earmarked. This is news to me. Is it your position that the USA instigated and created the Maiden movement and directly interfered in the domestic politics of the country? Everything that I've read is that this was a Ukrainian nationalist movement of indigenous origins tracing back to the earlier such movements there (Orange Revolution, I believe.) At best the USA followed it or tried to support it from behind -- and I've never seen that dollar figure that you've quoted anywhere.

MrRodgers -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 3:50:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers On this one, Kirata is correct and I disagree with you here. The bottom line is that the US alone has spent more than $5 billion...that's Billion on Ukraine. Where does that kind of money go ? It goes to aiding Ukraine separate from Russia (USSR) and its corruption in every way. It is not all 'clean' money. The bottom line in fixing this is easy but tough for the western banking cartel. ALL that needs to be done is cut off ALL western banking transactions from Russia through the BIS. (Bank of International settlements...Luxembourg) This bank serves 60 central banks and would cut Russia off at the knees financially. The problem of course as usual the the greed of the western bankers. They will likely come billionaire-hat-in-hand to sanctioning govts. for a subsidy to replace the fees they charge. Banking boycotts...cost money kinkroids. That's what has brought Iran to the table. The sanctions lifted for their agreeing to negotiate was $700 million a month out of $2 billion a month in oil money...allowed in. Then if need be...stop buying Russian oil. THE BANKERS Rule the world kinkroids and rule ALL international banking transactions. What is your source for the $5 Billion and when and where was that money earmarked. This is news to me. Is it your position that the USA instigated and created the Maiden movement and directly interfered in the domestic politics of the country? Everything that I've read is that this was a Ukrainian nationalist movement of indigenous origins tracing back to the earlier such movements there (Orange Revolution, I believe.) At best the USA followed it or tried to support it from behind -- and I've never seen that dollar figure that you've quoted anywhere. No but it wouldn't surprise me if the US didn't ride that horse. Here Application for formal EU membership is now off until 2020. Wiki: In 2012, the EU initialed deals on free trade and political association with Ukraine; however, EU leaders stated that these agreements would not be ratified unless Ukraine addresses concerns over a "stark deterioration of democracy and the rule of law", including the imprisonment of Yulia Tymoshenko and Yuriy Lutsenko in 2011 and 2012. Deadlines were set for Ukraine to carry out the required changes to its justice and electoral systems in order to enable the formal signing of their agreements with the EU in Vilnius on 29 November 2013. But although the then Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych had urged the Ukrainian parliament to adopt laws so that Ukraine could meet the EU's criteria, the Ukrainian government suspended preparations for signing the association agreement on 21 November 2013. Yanukovych still attended the aforementioned EU summit in Vilnius on 28–29 November 2013 where the association agreement was originally planned to be signed but it was not. The decision to put off signing the association agreement led to large, widespread protests in Ukraine. These led to the removal of Yanukovych and his government by parliament after the 2014 Ukrainian revolution in February 2014. Since then Ukraine is in turmoil because of the 2014 Crimean crisis and the 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine. The political part of the Association Agreement was signed on 21 March 2014 by the new Prime Minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk. Meanwhile the EU has attempted to stabilize Ukraine by freezing assets of Russians and Ukrainians and by granting financial help to Ukraine. The economic part of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement was signed on 27 June 2014 by the new President, Petro Poroshenko, who described this as Ukraine's "first but most decisive step" towards EU membership. Poroshenko also set 2020 as a target for an EU membership application.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 5:52:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB It looks like the ceasefire in the Ukraine is once again falling apart. The Russian media are talking about going nuclear against America http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11412878/Putin-Will-he-go-nuclear.html and right now we are about as close to WWIII as we were during the Cuban crisis. What do you think? Because there was WW1 and WW2....yes, we are heading towards WW3. It's inevitable.

cloudboy -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/16/2015 6:35:00 PM)
You have wandered [far] off the reservation: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/

MariaB -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/17/2015 12:13:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB You have an incorrect perception of the political status of the Ukraine. It was and in fact still is politically none aligned. In simple terms “neutral” the same as Switzerland. Would you be saying the same if Russia invaded Switzerland ? Where is my perception incorrect? I don't get comparing Switzerland to the Ukraine at all. How many Russians live in Switzerland and want to separate themselves from the country? When was Switzerland ever a part of the USSR? When has Putin ever meddled in Switzerland? Does Switzerland share a border with Russia? It was and in fact still is politically none aligned. In simple terms “neutral” the same as Switzerland. How do you not get that comparison? A neutral country is a neutral country regardless of its past or what country sits on its borders.[8\|]

cloudboy -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/17/2015 7:27:17 AM)
I guess I don't understand why you are pointing out that the Ukraine is neutral. I'm also not sure I'd agree with that point of view as a Russian. The Russia view (stupid propaganda IMO) is what MrRogers says. I also find it hard to characterize the Maiden movement as neutral.

slvemike4u -> RE: Are we heading towards WWIII? (2/17/2015 7:37:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB It looks like the ceasefire in the Ukraine is once again falling apart. The Russian media are talking about going nuclear against America http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11412878/Putin-Will-he-go-nuclear.html and right now we are about as close to WWIII as we were during the Cuban crisis. What do you think? Because there was WW1 and WW2....yes, we are heading towards WW3. It's inevitable. No,it isn't....man is an ever evolving creature,it's capacity to learn and adapt is endless.Why would WW3 be inevitable ?

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