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RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/18/2015 6:55:20 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Well, if you look at health care with a sideways eye you can say the AMA is the largest unregulated monopoly in known history. You can't get care in the U.S. unless it is in an AMA sanctioned facility and there is no legal cap on charges for a given service and no right to know the cost of a service or procedure ahead of time.


You can get care from whomever you choose. Your insurance will likely not pay if it's not a sanctioned facility, or doesn't employ AMA-certified physicians. The AMA is the grand poobah that gets to determine who is and who isn't a medical doctor. We get rid of that garbage, and prices certainly might come down a bit (there is a movement to use more Physician Assistants, and Nurse Practitioners, who have lower salaries than doctors, but I don't know if those savings will end up being seen by the patients). The AMA is also in control of the medical codes, so there's an awful lot of power in their hands, too.


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What I support:

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/18/2015 7:00:47 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
A well done study of outcomes indicates the greatly maligned NHS of Great Britain has produced better health profiles in all demographics than the US (NOT good, just better) at about 1/3rd the cost per patient. So much for 'best in the world'. What the US offers is the best care money can buy for the rich, if you exclude Switzerland, etc. and other First World medical experts which most US citizens are completely ignorant about.
Two big factors damaging our care are the glacial pace the FDA approves new procedures and treatments at and the tort environment US physicians operate within. Many specialists pay 30% to 50% of gross income to malpractice insurance, which has to add up to more than the 2% fraction quoted above. New York being probably the worst, CA and a few others much better.
Some practices actually pay less for malpractice insurance than family medical insurance but others skyrocket to the point US med students simply aren't going into those specialties. Foreign trained MDs are the only recourse, now over half the new licenses in the US?
Even where direct costs for malpractice ins. aren't high, the threat distorts practices to excessive testing and excess consultations that balloon costs.
Anyone interested can read the mission statement of the AMA to see where a big part of the current problem of affordable and effective care lies. It sure ain't the Hippocratic Oath!
The basis for 'Medical tourism' is seen in the many clinics just outside the borders of the US, North and South, set up by US doctors. Somewhat to seriously cheaper costs in a different legal/regulatory environment. And many procedures available there and the EU are still in phase II and III clinical studies in the US. Thailand and India are recruiting many cosmetic procedure patients from here, costs can be 1/3rd, recourse for bad outcomes is not what US clients are used to.


http://health.usnews.com/health-news/managing-your-healthcare/healthcare/articles/2010/09/07/cost-of-medical-malpractice-tops-55-billion-a-year-in-us
(The article is from 2010)
    quote:

    The cost of medical malpractice in the United States is $55.6 billion a year, which is 2.4 percent of annual health-care spending, a new study shows.
    The researchers said their estimate includes $45.6 billion in what's known as defensive medicine costs -- when doctors prescribe unnecessary tests or treatments to avoid lawsuits.




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What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to epiphiny43)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/18/2015 10:02:16 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Available to some....because they are priced out of the American medical market ?
Shouldn't we address that ?


Of course, we should! Too bad no one in Washington DC has any idea how to actually lower the costs of care. The GOP's fall back is tort reform, which is usually reported as only increasing costs 2%. That's almost not even a fucking dent! The Democrat's have proven (through Obamacare) that they don't know how to lower the costs of procedures and services either.

It's a damn shame. It truly is.


This is going to sound confusing, but I'll try to make it painless to understand. The purpose of the ACA was not to lower the overall costs. Because it does lower overall costs. In effect, I just say to opposing ideas and said they are both true, right? And that cant be right, right?

Well...

What is the ACA exactly? From what I understand of the law, its basically a logistics engine. Before the ACA went into effect, the number and kinds of policies were so great, that the number of policies from different insurance companies....didnt....overlap. Courts had a bitch of a time determining how one plan stacked up with many others. At best one would say one plan was 'close' in somethings, but different in others (yet the court's focus during a case would be those polices that were similar or same, rather than different).

The ACA would create four types of policy levels. These levels left some room for insurance companies to 'jockey' for more market share. The plans at each level would require an amount ('X') be paid by the customer for a medical process. And require the company to pay another amount ('Y'). That 'X' and 'Y' may and may not be the same or near-equal values, depending on the four levels (Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Platinum).

In additional, all the plans, regardless of cost, would cover a set of options deemed 'important'. These plans would be placed on a state exchange rather than a national exchange. This was figured (I'm speculating here), that the costs in New Hampshire would be different from Oklahoma. So the plan cost would be structured for each state individually. Now note, this is not a perfect system, and the bugs will always be worked out as time processes.

The ACA controls costs to a limited extent, and thereby, allows people to pay less for medical insurance. HOWEVER, inflation pushes up prices. Company decisions, promotions and hiring of people, equipment, and drugs; all can increase and at different levels.

Is there a safe way to reduce medical costs financially speaking? Not really. We'd have to create an economic depression that lasts for about ten years. I dont think....anyone...wants to go down that road. Because all things in the money market apparatus are really inner connected to each other. While I understand how it operates, I'm not entirely sure I could explain it to you over this medium. If we were sitting at a table together, I think I could explain. Would take me about a half hour to an hour. And maybe time after that attempting to answer the questions you would no doubtfully have.

When we talk about the medical industry, its really tied into so many other industries. Banking, finanical, defense, agriculture, energy, education, and research just to name a few. And that each of these have sub domains of sub domains from the main concepts. That one sub of a sub domain interacts directly and indirectly with another primary domain. Its really fascinating and confusing. You'd love it DS! That much I do know.


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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/18/2015 11:55:36 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The purpose of the ACA was not to lower the overall costs. Because it does lower overall costs. In effect, I just say to opposing ideas and said they are both true, right? And that cant be right, right?

I think you may be overlooking the fact that they're not "opposing ideas".

K.


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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/19/2015 7:57:25 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Ever consider single payer....



Not for nothing DS,but I read my article fine,nothing in what you quoted answered the questions SinFix and I were asking...it's not contained in the article



I could be wrong but I am pretty sure Canada already has a single payer system and according to the post ds made...


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

    quote:

    David McBain, 47, a Toronto landscaper who fractured his spine in a car accident, went to Cuba three times last year for extensive physical therapy.

    “The physiotherapists and the doctors are extremely knowledgeable and well trained in Cuba, and you just can’t beat the price,” Mr. McBain said. “The price is a fraction of what it would be in Canada or the U.S. for a therapist.”

    Mr. McBain, who is partly paralyzed and uses a wheelchair, said he was treated for several weeks during each visit at a Havana facility. He said the treatment in Cuba cost about $200 a day, which includes about six hours of physical therapy daily, a comfortable room and board. Canada’s national health system does not provide for the type of therapy he needs, he said, and a private neurological physical therapist would charge about $93 an hour.




So how would that help.

And the US already has the VA which is a type of single payer system, so tell me how well that's working out for our veterans and then perhaps you can explain how a system that is already fucked up will be better with more people added to it.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/19/2015 3:56:43 PM   
epiphiny43


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One area Single Payer succeeds is removal of excessive profits and the many costs of competition for market share. Replacing the motivation factors in profit and competition towards efficiency has been problematic. Bureaucratic inertia and self-interest is enough of a danger to cost containment! Administration costs don't scale up with numbers of members as fast as for numbers of separate service providers, another big saving.
The move to digital records has promise, the dangers of yet another insecure system in a world of criminal hackers looking for opportunity may moot those benefits.
How to manage the costs of higher technology while realizing it's benefits has stumped many. Overuse of expensive technology has a number of roots, some frivolous, others built in to the amazingly unproductive tort system and competition for business, all difficult to restrain.
That the largely dysfunctional and all but wholly irresponsible US Congress legislates all the details of our system has to hurt. The move of the ACA to Congress being covered by the same system it designs for the rest of us might have helped, if everyone in Congress wasn't able to easily afford fully private care, as well as all having official pay far above what others receiving free health insurance subsidy can make.

As my old Kaiser Dermatologist pointed out, "The nature of business is to get away with everything possible or be eaten alive by the competition. Is this how we really want to run a health care system?"


< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 2/19/2015 4:13:52 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/19/2015 4:08:47 PM   
epiphiny43


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Ignore, edit snafu, can't delete.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 2/19/2015 4:13:13 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/19/2015 4:18:39 PM   
MrRodgers


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Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Well, if you look at health care with a sideways eye you can say the AMA is the largest unregulated monopoly in known history. You can't get care in the U.S. unless it is in an AMA sanctioned facility and there is no legal cap on charges for a given service and no right to know the cost of a service or procedure ahead of time.

.....because this is America so it's not about health care because as always...it's about money.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/19/2015 4:22:52 PM   
epiphiny43


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Canada and the VA are specious examples of what a Single Payer system could or should be. Both are systems (Word used Loosely) subject to a variety of political and economic manipulations totally unconcerned with the effects they make on the purported system goal, health care. It's not that dissimilar to criticizing modern cars by picking the faults of a Yugo to make a point.
With all it's faults, the British NHS is producing a (mildly) healthier population at all ages and income levels than the US at 1/3rd the cost per patient overall. And the British Aren't eating better or getting more exercise!

A couple who are close friends are imbedding in the VA system. All the past publicized flaws have afflicted him, from denial of realistic disability percentage benefits and (ultra) slow care to simple incompetence. The system Is responding, as seen from a Large VA hospital (Tripler), to the daylight shown on it's inadequacies, and things are moving to a more caring and responsive institution.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 2/19/2015 4:29:29 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/19/2015 5:34:51 PM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Available to some....because they are priced out of the American medical market ?
Shouldn't we address that ?

Of course, we should! Too bad no one in Washington DC has any idea how to actually lower the costs of care. The GOP's fall back is tort reform, which is usually reported as only increasing costs 2%. That's almost not even a fucking dent! The Democrat's have proven (through Obamacare) that they don't know how to lower the costs of procedures and services either.
It's a damn shame. It truly is.

This is going to sound confusing, but I'll try to make it painless to understand. The purpose of the ACA was not to lower the overall costs. Because it does lower overall costs. In effect, I just say to opposing ideas and said they are both true, right? And that cant be right, right?


No one said anything about "overall costs," now did they? The only way that Obamacare can bring down the overall cost of care is if people take better care of themselves and screen for diseases and treat before the disease state arrives. That is, if your fasting blood sugar is trending up towards the upper level of "normal," there are steps that you may be able to take to reverse that trend before being besieged with diabetes. If your blood pressure is rising, there are things you can do to slow, stop, or reverse that before it ends up with some cardiovascular disease.

And, those things that you can do that may be able to help you? Many of them don't require any medical care at all.

Yes, the screenings will require you to engage the medical community to an extent. But, there are a lot of things you can do before you have to rely on the medical community to treat a disease.

Obamacare shifts the cost of insurance around so more people can afford to get it. The cost of insurance isn't going down, either. It's going up, too. But, why should we need to have insurance anyway? I won't argue that insurance is damn near required anymore. It's so important because the cost of medical care is so fucking high. Obamacare is attempting to shift the cost of insurance that is required to pay the high cost of treatments, medications, and services. Why not try to lower the costs of those treatments, medications, and services instead? That would bring the cost of insurance down, and, for some, insurance wouldn't even need to be used.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/19/2015 5:37:42 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
One area Single Payer succeeds is removal of excessive profits and the many costs of competition for market share.


What are "excessive profits," and where are they?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to epiphiny43)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/19/2015 6:01:32 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Available to some....because they are priced out of the American medical market ?
Shouldn't we address that ?

Of course, we should! Too bad no one in Washington DC has any idea how to actually lower the costs of care. The GOP's fall back is tort reform, which is usually reported as only increasing costs 2%. That's almost not even a fucking dent! The Democrat's have proven (through Obamacare) that they don't know how to lower the costs of procedures and services either.
It's a damn shame. It truly is.

This is going to sound confusing, but I'll try to make it painless to understand. The purpose of the ACA was not to lower the overall costs. Because it does lower overall costs. In effect, I just say to opposing ideas and said they are both true, right? And that cant be right, right?


No one said anything about "overall costs," now did they? The only way that Obamacare can bring down the overall cost of care is if people take better care of themselves and screen for diseases and treat before the disease state arrives. That is, if your fasting blood sugar is trending up towards the upper level of "normal," there are steps that you may be able to take to reverse that trend before being besieged with diabetes. If your blood pressure is rising, there are things you can do to slow, stop, or reverse that before it ends up with some cardiovascular disease.

And, those things that you can do that may be able to help you? Many of them don't require any medical care at all.

Yes, the screenings will require you to engage the medical community to an extent. But, there are a lot of things you can do before you have to rely on the medical community to treat a disease.

Obamacare shifts the cost of insurance around so more people can afford to get it. The cost of insurance isn't going down, either. It's going up, too. But, why should we need to have insurance anyway? I won't argue that insurance is damn near required anymore. It's so important because the cost of medical care is so fucking high. Obamacare is attempting to shift the cost of insurance that is required to pay the high cost of treatments, medications, and services. Why not try to lower the costs of those treatments, medications, and services instead? That would bring the cost of insurance down, and, for some, insurance wouldn't even need to be used.





Except that screening costs are higher than treatment costs. So, added screening does not lower costs, it raises them.

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RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/19/2015 6:08:23 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
One area Single Payer succeeds is removal of excessive profits and the many costs of competition for market share.


What are "excessive profits," and where are they?

The "excessive profits" are what is in the US system before Obamacare and after/presently.. Canada's system cuts out insurance corps and HMOs.. insurance corps do exist but they cover only the optional stuff that isn't covered by the govt system.. Canada also regulates the cost of meds so drug corps cant charge outrageous amounts like they can down here (which is why buses of seniors make trips to Canada to fill prescriptions every 3 months), and the govt regulates how much is charged for each procedure, etc.. And insurance for doctors is much lower in Canada also since the amount of a lawsuits is limited.. I have posted about the difference before, one article said (iirc) that it was around 10% of what it would be in the US (in the example given). A substantial difference at any rate.. I am only speaking about Canada's system, not the VA as I don't know anything about how it operates.. The nice thing about Canada's system is you can go to any doctor in your province you want to, here the insurance corps tell you which doctors you can go to so your choices are very limited..

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RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/19/2015 6:38:46 PM   
epiphiny43


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In terms I hope others resonate to, I consider 'excessive' profits within a health car system as those that attract new investors in a world of financial opportunity and invite major hospital acquisitions by private corporations. None of these investors expect to do less than 'well' financially, paid for by either tax payers or patients.
'Reasonable' profits would be what allow the requisite maintenance and keeping up with shifting technology and preparing for expected demographic shifts and predictable training/recruitment of staff. None of these are necessarily part of the profit centered HMO or hospital model developing currently. US shareholders want quarterly dividends or rising stock prices, preferably both.

Problems in the Canadian system seem to be underinvestment in direct costs and staff by choice of the elected Government, not actual issues unique to a single payer system. The Big Pharm industry seems quite willing to stay in the Canadian reduced profit market. Problems there with investment focused on profitable products and dissociated with actual health metrics of the general population or of special needs segments suggests some major modifications in how the health care dollar is reinvested in future tech and products is in order.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 2/19/2015 6:47:36 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/22/2015 6:09:07 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Available to some....because they are priced out of the American medical market ?
Shouldn't we address that ?

Of course, we should! Too bad no one in Washington DC has any idea how to actually lower the costs of care. The GOP's fall back is tort reform, which is usually reported as only increasing costs 2%. That's almost not even a fucking dent! The Democrat's have proven (through Obamacare) that they don't know how to lower the costs of procedures and services either.
It's a damn shame. It truly is.

This is going to sound confusing, but I'll try to make it painless to understand. The purpose of the ACA was not to lower the overall costs. Because it does lower overall costs. In effect, I just say to opposing ideas and said they are both true, right? And that cant be right, right?

No one said anything about "overall costs," now did they? The only way that Obamacare can bring down the overall cost of care is if people take better care of themselves and screen for diseases and treat before the disease state arrives. That is, if your fasting blood sugar is trending up towards the upper level of "normal," there are steps that you may be able to take to reverse that trend before being besieged with diabetes. If your blood pressure is rising, there are things you can do to slow, stop, or reverse that before it ends up with some cardiovascular disease.
And, those things that you can do that may be able to help you? Many of them don't require any medical care at all.
Yes, the screenings will require you to engage the medical community to an extent. But, there are a lot of things you can do before you have to rely on the medical community to treat a disease.
Obamacare shifts the cost of insurance around so more people can afford to get it. The cost of insurance isn't going down, either. It's going up, too. But, why should we need to have insurance anyway? I won't argue that insurance is damn near required anymore. It's so important because the cost of medical care is so fucking high. Obamacare is attempting to shift the cost of insurance that is required to pay the high cost of treatments, medications, and services. Why not try to lower the costs of those treatments, medications, and services instead? That would bring the cost of insurance down, and, for some, insurance wouldn't even need to be used.

Except that screening costs are higher than treatment costs. So, added screening does not lower costs, it raises them.


Really?!? That's a fucking stupid comment. If that's the case, we should all assume we have a disease and take the treatments rather than ever attempting to screen for them.

Look up free health screenings in your area. I don't know where you're from, but the idea of monitoring your blood pressure (even if you go ahead and purchase the most expensive automatic pressure system at the FSAStore.com ($799), that's still a shit ton less than going to the hospital with a stroke) being higher than treatment for high blood pressure is ridiculous. Check out those local interwebs for free health screenings. They happen regularly in my area. I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case in yours.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/22/2015 6:17:07 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
One area Single Payer succeeds is removal of excessive profits and the many costs of competition for market share.

What are "excessive profits," and where are they?

The "excessive profits" are what is in the US system before Obamacare and after/presently.. Canada's system cuts out insurance corps and HMOs.. insurance corps do exist but they cover only the optional stuff that isn't covered by the govt system.. Canada also regulates the cost of meds so drug corps cant charge outrageous amounts like they can down here (which is why buses of seniors make trips to Canada to fill prescriptions every 3 months), and the govt regulates how much is charged for each procedure, etc.. And insurance for doctors is much lower in Canada also since the amount of a lawsuits is limited.. I have posted about the difference before, one article said (iirc) that it was around 10% of what it would be in the US (in the example given). A substantial difference at any rate.. I am only speaking about Canada's system, not the VA as I don't know anything about how it operates.. The nice thing about Canada's system is you can go to any doctor in your province you want to, here the insurance corps tell you which doctors you can go to so your choices are very limited..


Sorry I wasn't specific enough.

1. How do you define "excessive profits?"
2. Where, in the US Healthcare System, are the "excessive profits?"
3. How do we go about getting rid of these "excessive" profits?

Your choices need not be limited at all. Most insurance companies have "in-network" and "out-of-network" categories. The in-network providers will have a higher coverage rate than out-of-network. You can still choose whomever you want to go see. Your insurance can not prevent you from seeing any particular physician. If you're in an area where your options are already limited (simply because there aren't many doctors per capita), your insurance options might be "very limited."

Let's see how this plays out, though. If the cost of care was lower, there would be less need for insurance. Less need for insurance also means that you don't have to worry about which group your insurance is going to pay more towards.

What does that add up to? Yup. More options! Ta Da! It's almost like fucking magic...

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/22/2015 6:25:51 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Canada and the VA are specious examples of what a Single Payer system could or should be. Both are systems (Word used Loosely) subject to a variety of political and economic manipulations totally unconcerned with the effects they make on the purported system goal, health care. It's not that dissimilar to criticizing modern cars by picking the faults of a Yugo to make a point.
With all it's faults, the British NHS is producing a (mildly) healthier population at all ages and income levels than the US at 1/3rd the cost per patient overall. And the British Aren't eating better or getting more exercise!

A couple who are close friends are imbedding in the VA system. All the past publicized flaws have afflicted him, from denial of realistic disability percentage benefits and (ultra) slow care to simple incompetence. The system Is responding, as seen from a Large VA hospital (Tripler), to the daylight shown on it's inadequacies, and things are moving to a more caring and responsive institution.


For anything other than the basest of basic care; depend not on the Veteran's Administration. Their stock and trade is to keep cycling you back but never actually providing treatment. Then, after a few months of being unable to get treatment, it goes in your record as a "chronic complaint" to be ignored or have medication thrown at.

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RE: Medical tourism....to Cuba - 2/22/2015 7:35:36 PM   
GoddessManko


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Personally I like the Japanese system of healthcare. Most efficient and practical of all countries in my opinion. That form of socialized medicine would have been quintessential here which was what the Affordable Care Act was supposed to resemble before Congress touched it. Ah well.

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