Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (Full Version)

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outlier -> Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (2/19/2015 1:35:40 PM)

Stan Frieberg on one of his album liner notes said:

"From Jonathan Swift to Voltaire to Al Capp the best
satire has always been born of pure outrage" (Might
not be exact but close)

Here is John Oliver on the money drug companies spend
marketing vs R&D, most of which goes to doctors. 17:12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQZ2UeOTO3I

"While they spend nearly four billion dollars a year marketing directly to us,
they spend an estimated twenty four billion dollars a year marketing directly to doctors.
In fact one analysis in 2013 claimed that 9 top 10 drug makers spent more on marketing
than on research. Drug companies are a bit like high school boyfriends, they are much more
concerned with getting inside you than being effective once they're in there."

Reference: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28212223
--




DesFIP -> RE: Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (2/19/2015 2:18:55 PM)

Without that marketing, most doctors wouldn't know if there is a newer and more effective treatment. Most doctors don't go home at night and study up on what can replace the tried and true prescriptions they've used for years.

So what solution do you have? This obviously isn't the best solution, but the alternative isn't much better.

Now obviously I'm biased. If it wasn't for aggressive marketing to doctors, my oldest wouldn't be on the meds that have kept her alive for almost 15 years, without being back in the psych ward every few years like most bipolars. Instead, with her rare variant, she wouldn't have graduated high school or college, or been a national champion in her sport. Instead she would have been a pregnant, drug addicted runaway at 16 and dead in her teens.

Would I rather they spent more money on research and doctors magically learn about new advances and start prescribing them? Sure. But until some better way to spread the news becomes available, I'm just glad that her adolescent psychiatrist did learn about a then new medication. One which the head psychiatrist of the hospital's adolescent psych ward had never heard of when she told me to give up.




outlier -> RE: Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (2/19/2015 5:02:21 PM)

First of all I think it is great that things went well for your daughter. But I don't see
one isolated case of eventually finding a doctor in the know as indicitave of the system
as a whole. Please consider the following numbers.

According to The Kaiser Foundation there are 893851 active doctors in the US.

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/total-active-physicians/#

If you divide that number into the 24 Billion estimated spent marketing to them
(that's 24 and 9 zeros, $24,000,000,000) that gives you a a dollar figure of $24,850
per physician! (I used this http://www.online-calculator.com/

I think that for that kind of money if all they were interested in was educating a group of
competent professionals that would be more than enough so that every last one of them,
who wanted to, would know. Or could quickly find any relevant information.

I used to teach, believe me with that kind of budget the job could be done.

If you don't think there is the possibility of other motives involved after considering
those numbers then I think it may be time to retire your "Cynical and proud of it" sigline.





LookieNoNookie -> RE: Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (2/23/2015 4:40:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

Stan Frieberg on one of his album liner notes said:

"From Jonathan Swift to Voltaire to Al Capp the best
satire has always been born of pure outrage" (Might
not be exact but close)

Here is John Oliver on the money drug companies spend
marketing vs R&D, most of which goes to doctors. 17:12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQZ2UeOTO3I

"While they spend nearly four billion dollars a year marketing directly to us,
they spend an estimated twenty four billion dollars a year marketing directly to doctors.
In fact one analysis in 2013 claimed that 9 top 10 drug makers spent more on marketing
than on research. Drug companies are a bit like high school boyfriends, they are much more
concerned with getting inside you than being effective once they're in there.
"

Reference: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28212223
--



Love that :)




Sanity -> RE: Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (2/23/2015 6:02:35 PM)


There is more than one drug company, and I am sure that yearly salaries, continuing education costs and benefits etc for competent pharmaceutical professionals who spend their lives consulting with all of the physicians in the country cant be cheap. There is a lot to discuss - side effects, contraindications and so on. I am sure there are travel costs, lodging, support staff. They give out all kinds of free samples, pay for seminars and other continuing education costs

Its likely a good thing that they spend a bundle on outreach efforts, good for the economy providing all of these jobs. Good for the patients, good for everyone.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (2/23/2015 6:11:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


There is more than one drug company, and I am sure that yearly salaries, continuing education costs and benefits etc for competent pharmaceutical professionals who spend their lives consulting with all of the physicians in the country cant be cheap. There is a lot to discuss - side effects, contraindications and so on. I am sure there are travel costs, lodging, support staff. They give out all kinds of free samples, pay for seminars and other continuing education costs

Its likely a good thing that they spend a bundle on outreach efforts, good for the economy providing all of these jobs. Good for the patients, good for everyone.


As usual....well said.




MercTech -> RE: Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (2/24/2015 6:13:06 AM)

Another insidious trait is removing from the shelves over the counter remedies forcing people to see a doctor for inflated price prescriptions.

In specific, I'm thinking of treatment for conjunctivitis (pink eye) and ringworm (a fungal infection of the skin).
Pink eye is easily treated by an ophthalmic solution of silver nitrate and was an over the counter drug for over a hundred years. No longer available at chain pharmacies. The prescription ointment is much more expensive and no more effective than the traditional treatment.
Ringworm is easily treated by a sodium thiosulfate solution which is no longer available over the counter. So, you are forced to go to a doctor for a prescription for a patented ointment that costs tens if not a hundred times as much as the older remedy.

Heaven forbid someone might self medicate for something simple without paying 100+ dollars to consult with a physician.

Now, how many times do you go to a doctor be asked "What are you here for?" And the real answer is, "To pay you to use your pen for five seconds."




igor2003 -> RE: Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (2/24/2015 7:45:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Without that marketing, most doctors wouldn't know if there is a newer and more effective treatment. Most doctors don't go home at night and study up on what can replace the tried and true prescriptions they've used for years.

So what solution do you have? This obviously isn't the best solution, but the alternative isn't much better.

Now obviously I'm biased. If it wasn't for aggressive marketing to doctors, my oldest wouldn't be on the meds that have kept her alive for almost 15 years, without being back in the psych ward every few years like most bipolars. Instead, with her rare variant, she wouldn't have graduated high school or college, or been a national champion in her sport. Instead she would have been a pregnant, drug addicted runaway at 16 and dead in her teens.

Would I rather they spent more money on research and doctors magically learn about new advances and start prescribing them? Sure. But until some better way to spread the news becomes available, I'm just glad that her adolescent psychiatrist did learn about a then new medication. One which the head psychiatrist of the hospital's adolescent psych ward had never heard of when she told me to give up.


It's good to hear about your daughter. But my experience with pharmaceutical reps is different.

I had gone to one clinic for a number of years and had no problem with them. Then they started having pharmaceutical representatives sit in on your doctor visit...with your permission, of course. At first, I could see no harm in it, but after a time I started to notice that after each of these visits I would end up with more prescriptions.

About a year and a half ago I was in the process of moving my prescriptions to a different pharmacy. Things got messed up, and long story short, I ended up without 5 different meds for about a week and a half. I'm usually a little lackadaisical about checking my blood pressure and glucose levels every day, but without these meds I was monitoring things very closely.

What I found was that without these meds my blood pressure actually went down to where it was supposed to be, and my glucose levels didn't change at all. Three of the five meds were totally unnecessary or even harmful. One of the meds had been for edema in my legs, so I went back on it, and the fifth one I don't remember what it had been for, but I went back on it as soon as I could as well.

On my next doctor visit I told my doctor about the results. He was surprised, but said that if things were working then he was all for it. Except for the glucose med. Instead of accepting the fact that I hadn't needed that one he prescribed a different glucose med for me...a more expensive one.

Then the last time I went to visit the Dr., he again had a pharma rep there. Based solely on the pharma rep's suggestion he changed one of my regular meds that had been working well to something "new". He hadn't checked my numbers or anything else. He just changed my prescription.

I'm now going to a new doctor, and there won't be any pharma reps allowed to sit in on my checkups.




DesFIP -> RE: Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (2/24/2015 11:15:01 PM)

I'm not saying that the purpose of marketing isn't to market the meds and make the companies money. I never said that.

I asked what other method do you suggest to have doctors find out what is new? Since most doctors aren't going to go to seminars or study online unless that becomes a requirement to maintain their license. And I don't see that happening.




Sanity -> RE: Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (2/25/2015 4:43:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Another insidious trait is removing from the shelves over the counter remedies forcing people to see a doctor for inflated price prescriptions.

In specific, I'm thinking of treatment for conjunctivitis (pink eye) and ringworm (a fungal infection of the skin).
Pink eye is easily treated by an ophthalmic solution of silver nitrate and was an over the counter drug for over a hundred years. No longer available at chain pharmacies. The prescription ointment is much more expensive and no more effective than the traditional treatment.
Ringworm is easily treated by a sodium thiosulfate solution which is no longer available over the counter. So, you are forced to go to a doctor for a prescription for a patented ointment that costs tens if not a hundred times as much as the older remedy.

Heaven forbid someone might self medicate for something simple without paying 100+ dollars to consult with a physician.

Now, how many times do you go to a doctor be asked "What are you here for?" And the real answer is, "To pay you to use your pen for five seconds."


The drug companies dont do that though, the government does, or the individual store owner does (based on what is selling). If there is a market for something, there will be someone there to supply it.




MrRodgers -> RE: Big Pharma R&D vs Marketing, John Oliver (2/25/2015 3:58:28 PM)

What you have here is to be expected. What lasts too long are patent protections (the resulting monopoly profits for far too long) then the govt, looking away when big pharma pays little pharma to hold new generics off the market.

Plus going way back to the creation of medical schools and the philanthropy that built them, they also built the curriculum where the teaching and accreditation was all about using the products of those that created the whole process in the first place and provided the money. It was called efficiency in philanthropy.

That also meant doctors taught to prescribe a pill, rather than recommend dietary changes or herbal therapies.

That's also why we see the boards of directors at big pharma on the board of regencies at the big schools. Even Bristol Meyers has a board member on the board at MSK. (Memorial Sloan Kettering) which would be a clear conflict of interest if [he] wasn't a 'volunteer.'

Kinkroids, it is stilll...all about the money. Look into amygdalin and that's a prime example and a crime.




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