SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (Full Version)

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defiantbadgirl -> SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 7:23:05 AM)


"The justices are meeting Wednesday to try to determine whether the law makes people in all 50 states eligible for federal tax subsidies to cut the cost of insurance premiums. Or does it limit tax credits only to people who live in states that created their own health insurance marketplaces?"

http://news.yahoo.com/high-court-takes-major-fight-over-health-law-080757326--politics.html



What do you think their decision will be and why? If subsidies are taken away, would the resulting chaos lead to President Obama expanding Medicare to all by executive order?




cloudboy -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 7:44:03 AM)



Clarence Thomas, Antonin Scalia: Will vote for the plaintiffs

Justice Samuel A. Alito, Jr: Will probably vote for the plaintiffs

Chief Justice John G. Roberts: Will probably vote against the plaintiffs

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
Justice Sonia Sotomayor
Justice Stephen G. Breyer
Justice Elena Kagan.

Will all vote against the plaintiffs.




cloudboy -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 7:47:47 AM)


Note: Thomas, Scalia, Roberts, and Alito followed conservative judicial principles, they would vote against the plaintiffs and keep the court out of the fundamental law making and policy making of Congress.

When it comes to "conservative causes," however, this crew can get quite active from the bench.




KenDckey -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 7:58:42 AM)

I think they will uphold King based upon the purpose of the subsidy was to cooerce the states into setting up their own system.




joether -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 8:08:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
What do you think their decision will be and why? If subsidies are taken away, would the resulting chaos lead to President Obama expanding Medicare to all by executive order?


Lets start with the basics:

Who on this forum has read the actual law? All 2409 pages of it?

I have, anyone else? No....

Who can find the actual text to the bill?

I can.

And this is important to a healthy discussion. Since those that can not say 'yes' to both questions will be told, by others, what and how to think by media organizations. Some of them with a political and/or religious agenda for taking such action. These organizations will try and sad as it sounds, will, control many of the minds of Americans into believing stuff that is not explained in the law. Further, most Americans will not have access to the documents Democrats are submitting to the US Supreme Court explaining the 'spirit' of the law's intentions and purpose in clear ideas. These were created at the time of the law's approval, and not just recently.

The heart of the question is whether the intention and law would require individual states to pay the subsidies or the federal government. The challengers want to say it as an undo burden on the states and in violation of the law. Since to force states to pay for the subsidies of their own citizens would bankrupt a few states (i.e. Kansas). The Democrats state the intention of the subsides would come from the federal government, and thus, not create an undo burden on the states. That the states were to form exchanges and the subsidies as explain in the law would come directly from the government to the states, and onto the individuals.

To say its a bit...complicated....would not be to far from reality in this case. That most Americans including those outside, will not grasp the intricate details to well is a bit disappointing. The problem the US Supreme Court faces is one of being 'constitutionally' correct verse 'politically correct'. For them to remain credible in America's eyes, they have to state 'Constitutionally' correct. Which will be a very hard line to follow give the underlying conditions in the country right now. Most arent even aware of the underlying conditions...either! The political correct answer is to side in favor of the GOP. The GOP needs a 'major win' on healthcare, ans they have been floundering in that area for years. A political answer from the majority of US Supreme Court members (i.e. the five conservatives) would undermine the court's future credibility by Americans. Again, most Americans are not going to realize that until further down the road. The historians will point at cases like this one, for why the US Supreme Court failed the American people.

What happens after the decision, can not really be explained yet. The decision first has to be explained.





KenDckey -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 9:01:30 AM)

In reading SCOTUSBLOG.COM I find it difficult to determine which way they will go.




joether -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 11:39:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Clarence Thomas, Antonin Scalia: Will vote for the plaintiffs

Justice Samuel A. Alito, Jr: Will probably vote for the plaintiffs

Chief Justice John G. Roberts: Will probably vote against the plaintiffs

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
Justice Sonia Sotomayor
Justice Stephen G. Breyer
Justice Elena Kagan.

Will all vote against the plaintiffs.


Which does beg the question: How can any of them be impartial, when everyone knows how they will react on the case?





joether -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 11:57:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I think they will uphold King based upon the purpose of the subsidy was to cooerce the states into setting up their own system.


The law doesn't coerce anyone (though people can act like they are)! In fact, it sets up systems to handle the subsidies at the state level. In the manner (as I understand the law), the federal government would reimburse the states, for the subsidies. In addition, I believe it was through Medicare, that additional problems would be handled if needed. But that the states would have to do this on their own, rather than the federal government forcing them to do so.

Many states (ok, I'll be honest....the red states) did not take this up. In some warped viewpoint of theirs, they felt (I'm guessing here based on evidence) that the whole thing would be over turned by the US Supreme Court back in 2010-2011 and thus, not have to do anything. Well....they thought wrong, and now are on the receiving end of problems they created. They didn't want to take the help that was offered under the law, because they were against the Affordable Care Act. They based their actions on their political viewpoints towards the Democrats, rather than running their states given circumstances of the law taking effect (which is what they should have been doing all along).

Likewise, the ACA did not create the exchanges, nor the use of subsidies immediately. Those red states had plenty of forewarning and schedules of events to take place. Nearly three years in advance!




KenDckey -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 3:17:41 PM)

Sitting here reading the transcript of today's hearing http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/14-114_lkhn.pdf and I think it possible that if the subsidy is overturned, that someone may come along and say, wait a minute. SCOTUS said this is unconstitutional. That is illegal and my taxes were used to pay for this illegal gain by individuals and I want those taxes returned to the govt. File suit and potentially win.




DesideriScuri -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 5:42:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
"The justices are meeting Wednesday to try to determine whether the law makes people in all 50 states eligible for federal tax subsidies to cut the cost of insurance premiums. Or does it limit tax credits only to people who live in states that created their own health insurance marketplaces?"
http://news.yahoo.com/high-court-takes-major-fight-over-health-law-080757326--politics.html
What do you think their decision will be and why? If subsidies are taken away, would the resulting chaos lead to President Obama expanding Medicare to all by executive order?


1. The text of the law says that subsidies are linked to exchanges run by the states. Using a strict wording interpretation, no subsidies will be available to those who buy insurance off the exchanges run by the Fed's. In that case, the SCOTUS has to rule for the plaintiffs.

2. I believe the SCOTUS has already ruled somewhere that intent of a law matters. If that is the interpretation used, SCOTUS will rule against the plaintiffs, because the intent of the crafters of the law was to offer subsidies to all who fit the income criteria.

What do I think will happen? I truly do think that intent of the law matters. Even though I think Obamacare is bad law, and isn't Constitutionally authorized, the law shouldn't be struck down because of an error like that.

But, people should be careful what they wish for, too. If intent is a deciding factor, then anchor babies aren't US Citizens because the 14th Amendment was never intended to allow automatic citizenship for children born in the US of illegal immigrants.




bounty44 -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 7:43:43 PM)

I saw a video of jonathan gruber tonight pretty much making the same argument the plaintiff's are making, and while I don't disagree with the idea of "intent", I don't know how that can run counter to the plain language stated therein.

as I understand it, the law itself doesn't get struck down, it just makes a huge portion of it a sort of non-starter for 7 million people.




KenDckey -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/4/2015 11:55:15 PM)

Bounty You are correct. They are only going after 4 words in the entire law. Not the entire thing. However, those 4 words could bring down the entire law over time.




MrRodgers -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/5/2015 12:22:33 AM)

Yes, but even Clarence Thomas has said that they must consider the intent of congress.

It is possible that for the first time (I think) Thomas may vote counter to Scalia and against the plaintiffs here and may even share in the majority opinion (6-3 ?) and also...may even consider 'state' to mean the country as well.




DesideriScuri -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/5/2015 5:28:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
I saw a video of jonathan gruber tonight pretty much making the same argument the plaintiff's are making, and while I don't disagree with the idea of "intent", I don't know how that can run counter to the plain language stated therein.
as I understand it, the law itself doesn't get struck down, it just makes a huge portion of it a sort of non-starter for 7 million people.


It doesn't run counter, though. The intent was that people who bought their insurance on the exchanges could be eligible for subsidies. The intent wasn't that only those who bought on State-run exchanges be eligible. They also expected the States to set up the exchanges, though they did leave the option for the Federal government to set them up, if a State didn't.






DesideriScuri -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/5/2015 5:32:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Yes, but even Clarence Thomas has said that they must consider the intent of congress.
It is possible that for the first time (I think) Thomas may vote counter to Scalia and against the plaintiffs here and may even share in the majority opinion (6-3 ?) and also...may even consider 'state' to mean the country as well.


I doubt that one. It's pretty clear that Congress wasn't referring to the Federal government when it used the phrase, "established by the state."




KenDckey -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/5/2015 5:36:32 PM)

That is what I think :D




joether -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/5/2015 6:46:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Yes, but even Clarence Thomas has said that they must consider the intent of congress.
It is possible that for the first time (I think) Thomas may vote counter to Scalia and against the plaintiffs here and may even share in the majority opinion (6-3 ?) and also...may even consider 'state' to mean the country as well.


I doubt that one. It's pretty clear that Congress wasn't referring to the Federal government when it used the phrase, "established by the state."


That is why we have learned from past mistakes with the law on the books. When laws are created these days there are two concepts put into play. The first is the actual law that was written. This spells out mechanics and definitions, along with how it intergrates itself into existing law. The second set of documents are the 'spirit' of the law. This is the author's views and wording for the law. Obviously no one can know conditions twenty years down the road with any accuracy. So the spirit of the law helps judges determine the intent of the written law as it relates to a case.

From what I've heard recently, Democrats have given this information over to the court to decide. Do you happen to have what they gave to the court handy?




KenDckey -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/5/2015 6:51:11 PM)

If interested here is where you can find all the briefs, etc. http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/king-v-burwell/





MrBukani -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/7/2015 7:32:57 PM)

Wash your scrotum filthy nutbuttersquash racketeers. Just a general remark. To all.




Moderator3 -> RE: SCOTUS and health insurance subsidies (3/7/2015 7:36:36 PM)

Is someone having a problem that I can assist with tonight?




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