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KenDckey -> The Budget (3/6/2015 5:47:20 AM)

If the amount of money coming into the treasury is less than the amount being spent, where would you cut spending and why? This presumes that tax increases are not viable.

Military
Illegal Aliens
Healthcare
IRS
Benefits to Government Workers
Cut the pay to POTUS, SCOTUS and Congress
Medicare
Social Security
Department of Justice
Homeland Security
Agency for International Development
State Department
Commissions and Boards
Other

My personal favorite is to cut the pay of Congress (equivalent to a Captain in the Military because they are Captains of our Country) POTUS (equivalent to a 4 star General/Admiral because he is a chief executive), SCOTUS (equivalent to full Colonels/Navy Captains because that is the usual highest rank a military judge obtains), provide them with military style housing (utilities paid like the military) and on a military installation for security, and provide them session end round trip transportation back to their own state (in the case of Congress). Vacations would be limited to 30 days a year and not at Government expense. Family members would be excluded from official travel. Department executives would have to be similarly adjusted down so they don’t make more money than their superiors.

I would also cut certain projects. One example would be that if the Department of Defense wanted 35 new F-16's Congress could not force them to purchase 200. Add on’s for political gain cost the taxpayer a ton of money and should go.




Zonie63 -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 7:26:14 AM)

Cutting the pay of Congress and other top government officials might have a certain symbolic "feel good" effect, although I doubt it would put much of a dent in the overall budget or spending situation. A lot of it may have to do with the ways and means of how government does things.

[image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Irontriangle.PNG[/image]




KenDckey -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 7:33:32 AM)

I think cutting pay would create a lesser desire to become a career politician. It wold also, bring those to government, in my opinion, that are more interested in governance than party politics.




joether -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 7:41:54 AM)

This is a bit of a 'simpleton' exercise in macro economics. And I say that respectfully, KenDckey. The US Budget is not like the local high school's theater budget. With about $3.2 trillion its the largest budget on planet Earth! Likewise, most people do not understand what it means to play around with number this big. So 'fucking around' could have some seriously damaging effects on the nation. Not just for the short term either!

Its easier to understand the functional dynamics of the budget by putting it into tangible concepts. $100 Billion is just 1/10th of a Trillion dollars. 10 unites of $100 Billion are worth $1 Trillion. So the budget is simple 32 units of $100 Billion. What does the United States buy for $3.2 trillion in a year?

The answer is just 'yes'.

From pencils on up to nuclear powered aircraft carriers. That its work force is not just those in the public sector by many times that in the private sector. That it does effect the nation's economy on local scales and the national. It even effects international economies. That was shown when the government was partial shutdown thanks to Republicans led by Ted Cruz. So what the nation pays and how it effects people at all levels again, is not to take lightly.

So here is the old phrase: Power Requires Responsibility, Great Power Requires Great Responsibility.

Anyone that does not fully understand the concept should not have even a tiny bit of power over deciding the budget. There are many people in this nation that would like to drop the budget in half, immediately. Some (about 10% of the previous group mentioned) would desire to do it over 5-10 years. Both groups are completely insane and should NOT be listen to under any circumstance.

It has been shown when the budget was dropped by just $500 Billion (or 5 units of $100 Billion), the nation's economy went from 'pretty stable' to 'sinking towards a recession'. Dropping $200-300 Billion should only be done in good economic times. And not just from any one group either.

If you watch Democrats and Republicans they will tell you they are dropping funding over a period of 'x' years. They understand what happens if you drop everything immediately. Its to bad most Americans can not understand this concept to any decent degree. Would make explaining the specifics much easier!

Likewise, each sub department head of each department understands fully what it means to stay in budget. And to try to save on costs were possible. These are US Citizens that understand all to well, how the budget operates under different US Presidents and Congresses. Most people in public sector jobs do not see 'raising taxes' as a viable option to handle costs the same as some private citizens.

If we want to handle the budget, then do it line by line, rather than as a whole. Putting the idea that 'no new taxes or additions' is just as real of an option as anything else. You can argue until your blue in the face, but reasonable people understand its there for a purpose. No one likes to raise taxes either, not even liberals!

Also, as you go about this process try to keep one thing in mind: the people employed. According the the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), each $100 Billion in government spending either creates and/or maintains about 700,000-950,000 jobs. The majority of these jobs is in the private sector, with the next biggest group called 'down stream jobs', followed by the smallest of the three groups, public sector. That when this money has been cut in the past, those in the public and private sector feel it first, and those in the 'down stream' feel it 3-6 months afterward. Dropping the majority of that money out of just one area on the budget (as you pointed out KenDckey), could have severe effects on the industries effected.





mnottertail -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 7:51:29 AM)

Military
Illegal Aliens
Benefits to Government Workers
Cut the pay to POTUS, SCOTUS and Congress
Homeland Security
Agency for International Development
Commissions and Boards
Other

Military by 30-40% and all in career desk jockeys and toys, no actual troops.
Illegal aliens by going after corporations, and leaving the individuals till that is done all the way and up against the wall.
Govt workers, P, S and C, no greater benefits than the average of the middle class worker.
Homeland security all over the place, and make it just do HOMELAND SECURITY of US, not be fucking around in DVD cloning and whatnot.
Agency for International Development (lots of restrictions for that one, drop its mission by about 75%)
and too much with the others, but cuts.





joether -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 8:06:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Military
Illegal Aliens
Benefits to Government Workers
Cut the pay to POTUS, SCOTUS and Congress
Homeland Security
Agency for International Development
Commissions and Boards
Other

Military by 30-40% and all in career desk jockeys and toys, no actual troops.
Illegal aliens by going after corporations, and leaving the individuals till that is done all the way and up against the wall.
Govt workers, P, S and C, no greater benefits than the average of the middle class worker.
Homeland security all over the place, and make it just do HOMELAND SECURITY of US, not be fucking around in DVD cloning and whatnot.
Agency for International Development (lots of restrictions for that one, drop its mission by about 75%)
and too much with the others, but cuts.


If this country did as you stated, I would not be surprised if it were in an economic recession inside of three years flat!

The people that are in Congress, the White House and the US Supreme Court are rich enough that the pay is irrelevant to them. In fact more than half of Congress is comprised of multi-millionaires right now. Symbolic gesture, but ultimately irrelevant to the objective viewer.




mnottertail -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 8:21:51 AM)

Why would we be in an economic recession? It doesn't follow, and I am talking more than symbolic cuts.





bounty44 -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 8:33:28 AM)

i watched part of the cpac and rand paul said he had a budget plan that would balance the budget in five years.

http://www.cato.org/blog/rand-pauls-balanced-budget-plan

what we are really asking here is the larger and broader question of what is the fundamental role of government? then we pay for that, and everything else belongs in the private sector.




joether -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 8:42:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Why would we be in an economic recession? It doesn't follow, and I am talking more than symbolic cuts.


As I stated, you would be cutting to much to quickly. At least that is how I interpreted your 'plan'. The Defense budget is many things to many people. Objectively speaking it pays not just the men and women of the US Military, but the many hundreds of thousands of support systems. And, it pays for equipment. Both authorized for used and 'new development'.

You understand that a nuclear carrier task fleet doesn't simply resupply itself on its own at a base, right? That it takes a huge number of suppliers from different vendors. You want to cut these out?

Likewise, technology is ever evolving. To have the best technology in our military's hands requires research and development. Cutting that money only places thousands if not tends of thousands of middle class people into the unemployment market.

It sounds 'fun' to do, but there are real problems being generated when this happens.




joether -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 8:53:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i watched part of the cpac and rand paul said he had a budget plan that would balance the budget in five years.

http://www.cato.org/blog/rand-pauls-balanced-budget-plan

what we are really asking here is the larger and broader question of what is the fundamental role of government? then we pay for that, and everything else belongs in the private sector.


Balance the budget in five years?

Let me take a moment and laugh my ass off!

...ok....

And it comes from the CATO Institute. One of the most conservative if not 'Tea Party' organizations out there. And where is that 'detailed plan' coming from? Not from Rand Paul's out site!

I have no confidence in Rand Paul's abilities. This is a medical doctor that doesn't understand how vaccines work in the human body. This is a guy that doesn't understand how local budgets operate, let alone federal ones.

Let me show you how silly Rand Paul's 'ideas' are on the economy: Explain Rand Paul's Plan to me. Your words. No cut/paste jobs, no links. And I want things in exacting terms, NOT, floating obscure ideas. Think you can do that?





mnottertail -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 9:01:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Why would we be in an economic recession? It doesn't follow, and I am talking more than symbolic cuts.


As I stated, you would be cutting to much to quickly. At least that is how I interpreted your 'plan'. The Defense budget is many things to many people. Objectively speaking it pays not just the men and women of the US Military, but the many hundreds of thousands of support systems. And, it pays for equipment. Both authorized for used and 'new development'.

You understand that a nuclear carrier task fleet doesn't simply resupply itself on its own at a base, right? That it takes a huge number of suppliers from different vendors. You want to cut these out?

Likewise, technology is ever evolving. To have the best technology in our military's hands requires research and development. Cutting that money only places thousands if not tends of thousands of middle class people into the unemployment market.

It sounds 'fun' to do, but there are real problems being generated when this happens.



No and ja.

First of all, the fleet gets resupplied. Much of the current R&D gets cut. The rest is revamped. Let corporations sell their stuff overseas.

The chinese blew an old satellite out out of the air with an everyday conventional warhead. That was 2007. I will leave the implications of that as an exercise to the reader. War tech needs a revamping to low tech war tech, medium tech war tech, and fuck hi tech war tech, it assumes too much lack of war.






joether -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 9:52:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Why would we be in an economic recession? It doesn't follow, and I am talking more than symbolic cuts.

As I stated, you would be cutting to much to quickly. At least that is how I interpreted your 'plan'. The Defense budget is many things to many people. Objectively speaking it pays not just the men and women of the US Military, but the many hundreds of thousands of support systems. And, it pays for equipment. Both authorized for used and 'new development'.

You understand that a nuclear carrier task fleet doesn't simply resupply itself on its own at a base, right? That it takes a huge number of suppliers from different vendors. You want to cut these out?

Likewise, technology is ever evolving. To have the best technology in our military's hands requires research and development. Cutting that money only places thousands if not tends of thousands of middle class people into the unemployment market.

It sounds 'fun' to do, but there are real problems being generated when this happens.

No and ja.

First of all, the fleet gets resupplied. Much of the current R&D gets cut. The rest is revamped. Let corporations sell their stuff overseas.


"Much of the current R&D...." costs this nation $200-350 billion. You want to cut a good portion of that budget?

Likewise, your in favor of other nations obtaining new technology before the United States gets 'first crack' at it? Be very careful how you answer this one....

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
The chinese blew an old satellite out out of the air with an everyday conventional warhead. That was 2007. I will leave the implications of that as an exercise to the reader.


Do you know how many satellites have been destroyed thanks to the technology the USA has? I dont think those Chinese will be 'up front and honest' on that number. Since I suspect its quite a bit more.











mnottertail -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 9:56:02 AM)

Likewise, your in favor of other nations obtaining new technology before the United States gets 'first crack' at it? Be very careful how you answer this one....


no, dont go there, what new technology do we get that we dont immediately turn over to the chinese who makes our chips for that?

R & D for technology based on satellites and GPS is deadly to us. Period. Some of that cuttable budget money could be used for other things, I did not say that I would not add, nor did I say I would not reform taxes.

This is a narrow and stupid conversation.






bounty44 -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 12:33:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i watched part of the cpac and rand paul said he had a budget plan that would balance the budget in five years.

http://www.cato.org/blog/rand-pauls-balanced-budget-plan

what we are really asking here is the larger and broader question of what is the fundamental role of government? then we pay for that, and everything else belongs in the private sector.


Balance the budget in five years?

Let me take a moment and laugh my ass off!

...ok....

And it comes from the CATO Institute. One of the most conservative if not 'Tea Party' organizations out there. And where is that 'detailed plan' coming from? Not from Rand Paul's out site!

I have no confidence in Rand Paul's abilities. This is a medical doctor that doesn't understand how vaccines work in the human body. This is a guy that doesn't understand how local budgets operate, let alone federal ones.

Let me show you how silly Rand Paul's 'ideas' are on the economy: Explain Rand Paul's Plan to me. Your words. No cut/paste jobs, no links. And I want things in exacting terms, NOT, floating obscure ideas. Think you can do that?


I have not read rand paul's plan, nor at the moment do I have an intention or desire to do so, if it even fully exists at this point in detailed fashion. I was merely sharing what he said about the budget, as a point of contributing to the conversation and as a preface to my question that is still out there:

what do we all think is the proper role of government?

for future reference, cato is libertarian, not conservative.

lastly, all they were doing was reporting rand, not offering up the budget themselves so it doesn't matter what their political persuasion is.




mnottertail -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 1:38:58 PM)

Anyone can say anything, and they generally do. Some say the rightwing [Mod removed a filtered word that got by.] shiteaters are 'fiscally conservative' but we have massive proof to the contrary, and we have irrefutable proof they are innumerate.




cloudboy -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 4:21:37 PM)

How has austerity worked in Europe?

====

I you want economic growth, you have to support Immigration Reform.

The U.S. Congressional Budget Office (“CBO”) found that immigration reform will help reduce the federal budget deficit by over two trillion dollars over the next decade.

The Tea Party has stifled this growth, kept everyone in limbo, all to pander to ignorant, nativist, American voters. Sick-minded policies result in a stifled economy.





KenDckey -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 5:07:16 PM)

Cloudboy. I wonder why the Dems didn't pass the necessary legislation when they were in power. I think it could be done with a few sentences.




MrRodgers -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 6:30:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Cloudboy. I wonder why the Dems didn't pass the necessary legislation when they were in power. I think it could be done with a few sentences.

Immigration ? They did in the senate. House wouldn't take it up.




joether -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 8:18:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
i watched part of the cpac and rand paul said he had a budget plan that would balance the budget in five years.

http://www.cato.org/blog/rand-pauls-balanced-budget-plan

what we are really asking here is the larger and broader question of what is the fundamental role of government? then we pay for that, and everything else belongs in the private sector.


Balance the budget in five years?

Let me take a moment and laugh my ass off!

...ok....

And it comes from the CATO Institute. One of the most conservative if not 'Tea Party' organizations out there. And where is that 'detailed plan' coming from? Not from Rand Paul's out site!

I have no confidence in Rand Paul's abilities. This is a medical doctor that doesn't understand how vaccines work in the human body. This is a guy that doesn't understand how local budgets operate, let alone federal ones.

Let me show you how silly Rand Paul's 'ideas' are on the economy: Explain Rand Paul's Plan to me. Your words. No cut/paste jobs, no links. And I want things in exacting terms, NOT, floating obscure ideas. Think you can do that?

I have not read rand paul's plan, nor at the moment do I have an intention or desire to do so, if it even fully exists at this point in detailed fashion. I was merely sharing what he said about the budget, as a point of contributing to the conversation and as a preface to my question that is still out there:


You support a plan that you know nothing about. Wouldn't be more intelligent to at least know some....decent...concepts of Rand Paul's plan? You know? The overall ideas and perhaps some of the supporting ideas under them? I was not sold on the ACA because President Obama pushed for it. Or that Democrats pushed for it. Or because Republicans and The Tea Party was against it. I read the whole document. Then decided based on the bill/laws's merits.

Every single politician will tell you anything you want to hear, if it gives them more power. Asking them to show the solid project before you give a judgment, pushes the ball back into their court. They have to devise something real and concrete. Most politicians hate to do this, since what they say, and what they can deliver are sometimes, two different things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
what do we all think is the proper role of government?


We are talking about the budget in real terms, not 'the role of government' in philosophical terms.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
for future reference, cato is libertarian, not conservative.


And they keep pushing shit on top of shit. The majority comes from questionable sources, their conclusions are heavily slanted, and they smell bad!

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
lastly, all they were doing was reporting rand, not offering up the budget themselves so it doesn't matter what their political persuasion is.


No, they were pushing for Rand Paul. Reporting is what CNN does. The different is the first group places everything they want to push in the best possible light (and everything else in the worst possible light). A journalistic media will give you the good with the bad, irrelevant of who looks good or not in the end.




joether -> RE: The Budget (3/6/2015 8:24:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Cloudboy. I wonder why the Dems didn't pass the necessary legislation when they were in power. I think it could be done with a few sentences.


They did try, back in 2007. With the McCain/Kennedy bill. You might recall that is when the conservative media hit upon the idea of 'not giving amnesty to law breakers'. Much of the higher 'up' conservative circles found a study from UNM that showed for every one immigrant that becomes a US Citizen, five more would vote Democrat. They filled this crap down the line to other conservatives, whom become against the whole bill, rather they allow it to go forward.

This move by conservatives ultimately cost them the Latino vote in the 2008 general election, and Sen. Obama won the White House. Which is what I call 'ironic'.




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