RE: Dodd-Frank (Full Version)

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bounty44 -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/15/2015 8:48:43 AM)

i know on the couple of occasions I have mentioned dodd-frank to my local bank managers, they shake their heads and grit their teeth in chagrin and would rather not be having it.




BenevolentM -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/15/2015 8:58:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i know on the couple of occasions I have mentioned dodd-frank to my local bank managers, they shake their heads and grit their teeth in chagrin and would rather not be having it.


That is my impression as well. I suspect the law is insane.

quote:

Set Up To Fail: Dodd-Frank ...

Many of us in Congress fought this approach. We wanted to do what the President and Congress did after the 1929 stock market crash and the beginnings of the Great Depression. They created the Pecora Commission to study what had happened and to make specific recommendations. The result was the 37-page Glass-Steagall Act of 1933. It fundamentally changed our banking industry, and it helped protect us from a major financial crisis until it was repealed in 1999.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedkaufman/2013/07/19/set-up-to-fail-dodd-frank-leaves-bank-regulators-overwhelmed-underfunded/


What we got is evidently something half baked. Why? My guess is Democrats believe in experts rather than doing their due diligence left it to the experts.




BenevolentM -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/15/2015 9:33:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

What we got is evidently something half baked. Why? My guess is Democrats believe in experts rather than doing their due diligence left it to the experts.


Why is this a problem? Experts like to play God. Glass-Steagall didn't. It made sense from the stand point of Occam's razor. Though the Obama administration appears to be pro science, it doesn't believe that Occam's razor is applicable. It prefers complicated theories over simple ones.




BenevolentM -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/15/2015 9:42:48 AM)

The more I think about it Glass-Steagall made sense. What is true for investment banks is not true for commercial banks. In commercial banking investing is conservative. In investment banking investing is liberal. The two styles don't mix well. Conservative thinking is appropriate for commercial banking and liberal thinking is appropriate for investment banking.




Moderator3 -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/15/2015 9:48:23 AM)

Rather than create post after post responding to yourself, why not put it all together and post it at one time and then the other posters can go to one post and respond to it rather than having to weed through and quote so many.

It would be appreciated.




BenevolentM -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/15/2015 9:49:28 AM)

The new thinking is a complex world needs complex regulations! How do you reconcile this with Occam's razor?




BenevolentM -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/15/2015 9:51:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moderator3

Rather than create post after post responding to yourself, why not put it all together and post it at one time and then the other posters can go to one post and respond to it rather than having to weed through and quote so many.

It would be appreciated.


Because I am thinking aloud in real time. The added regulatory burden kills the flame.




Moderator3 -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/15/2015 9:54:10 AM)

So now I am a fire extinguisher.

I have also been said to favor some posters over others because I actually posted a response or laughter to someone they didn't like.

I can live with with both.

Gather your thoughts and put them together in your real time and process them before you bring them here to process.

Thank you




Tkman117 -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/15/2015 2:43:59 PM)

Good god thank you, the whole self-response thing from BM has been driving me crazy ever since he first came on here, a lot more than it really should have [:D]




BenevolentM -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/16/2015 10:03:13 AM)

My Dodd-Frank Thought for the Day

What is the likelihood that all of the regulations have expensive workarounds? Why did they hate about Glass-Steagall? It was likely the fact that there were no expensive workarounds. It was a law. Are expensive workarounds impartial? Who would be the beneficiary to an expensive workaround? Small business?




RottenJohnny -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/16/2015 10:37:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

My Dodd-Frank Thought for the Day

What is the likelihood that all of the regulations have expensive workarounds? Why did they hate about Glass-Steagall? It was likely the fact that there were no expensive workarounds. It was a law. Are expensive workarounds impartial? Who would be the beneficiary to an expensive workaround? Small business?

Small business rarely benefits from an expensive workaround. Most wouldn't be able to afford it.




bounty44 -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/16/2015 10:50:45 AM)

that said---one wonders also the expense of just complying with regulations period....




tj444 -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/16/2015 10:51:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I've been running into problems related to investing that I would describe as insane and I am wondering if Dodd-Frank is to blame. I suspect Dodd-Frank is attempting to make a distinction between corporations and individuals. Corporations are wealthy therefore pose a systemic risk whereas individuals are poor and therefore pose no risk. I do not feel this distinction to be legal nor benign. I suspect the law segregates individuals from the tools needed to create wealth. The reasoning is if you are an individual you have no need for the tools needed to create wealth for you are poor and ever shall be poor.

You arent very specific, what kinds of "problems related to investing" are you having?

The law that requires people to be "accredited" investors is one major obstacle to creating wealth.. but its for your own good, dontcha know? and the fact that the SEC is dragging its feet on crowdfunding investing is another obstacle.. (although some states have gone ahead on their own)

A possible option is to invest outside of the US & its laws.. remember too that MF Global took clients money, something that (as I understand it) is not legally allowed in European brokerages.. of course, if you are an American they may not want to deal with you/open an account for you.. Or if you think that corporations have an advantage & tools then incorporate and become a corporation..




BenevolentM -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/16/2015 10:58:39 AM)

My Second Dodd-Frank Thought for the Day

If you have a lot of money, isn't this good news? If you do not care that this creates needless wear and tear on your employees, it suggests that the law is vacuous and if the activities of the big banks are unhealthy and they cannot self-correct, it could destroy civilization.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Small business rarely benefits from an expensive workaround. Most wouldn't be able to afford it.


I agree. The counter argument is naturally wealth has its privileges and many feel that it should have privileges. I do not have a problem with it per se. The problem is the Dodd-Frank incentives appear bad. Those who were the most responsible for the financial crisis got what they wanted and those who were the least responsible were punished, the employees especially. I do not feel that the profession of accounting, for example, is intrinsically pointless, but laws such as these make the job pointless. You draw a salary, but there is an existential problem. You made money, but you led a pointless life where you dig your own grave. Each day you go to work to dig a hole, the next day you fill it up in long preparation for the day when you will no longer have the strength to fill the hole back up and you must rely on someone else to do it for you while you lay there in your grave.

Hopefully, it only looks bad and there is someone out there who can explain this stuff to us.




BenevolentM -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/16/2015 12:28:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

The law that requires people to be "accredited" investors is one major obstacle to creating wealth.. but its for your own good, dontcha know? and the fact that the SEC is dragging its feet on crowdfunding investing is another obstacle.. (although some states have gone ahead on their own)


The problem is invalid assumptions are being made. First of all, when you are starting a business unless you were opening a lemonade stand the likelihood that you will qualify as an accredited investor is good. The assumption is people are poor and investing is not a business. Investing for individuals is thought of as a hobby. I am dealing with snobs and I suspect Dodd-Frank just made it worse. By the way they invented a new category above accredited. Statistical reasoning is at the heart of it. Oh, individuals are statistically speaking dumb smucks, therefore since you are an individual who has yet to incorporate you are a dumb smuck. I must protect you from yourself for I am an evil monster! First of all, the bank shouldn't be an evil monster. Hence, you shouldn't have to be protected from an evil monster. The thinking is ridiculous and you have to deal with a bank. It isn't something you can avoid.

Incorporation is trivial. I do not wish to act prematurely, however. There are different ways to do it. A dumb smuck will incorporate because it is expected before they have any idea what they are doing. They want people to just go along with the program and this is rewarded big time. They don't want you to do your due diligence. They want you to be a dumb smuck. Professionals want you to be dependent on them. It is good for business.

If you are not a dumb smuck, it is not in your financial best interested to be officially labeled dumb smuck. The labeling is superficial. It is only in your best interest when you really are a dumb smuck, but being put into a statistical category is like saying, it would be politically incorrect to make it explicit. Being labeled dumb smuck is tantamount to denying you the means to start a business because if you are a dumb smuck naturally it would be in your best interest to be denied such privileges. It is about as elitist as you can get. I am encountering things that suggest that what they say about banks and professionals in general is true, but it is problematic in that they have a monopoly.

You cannot say hey wait a minute, this is dishonest. It embitters you, but who is going to be the one who is hurt? The crazy thing about it is, if they are dishonest, as bizarre as it may seem, the law is likely on their side. Why? Because everything they do they do in consultation with attorneys and accountants who have measured all the risks. Even if what they are doing is technically illegal, they know they will likely get away with it ahead of time. They know the system and they know how to whore it out.

What I am trying to figure out is the best way to cope. How do I navigate the insane waters? Do expensive time consuming workarounds exist? They do, but life is short and they are not giving me romantic feelings. I suppose I should be grateful for the expensive time consuming workarounds because it means there is hope. Eventually, I'll get past it.

What infuriates me is their unwillingness to send me a copy of the contracts that I will need to sign. I want to study them ahead of time. The way you do it is you go to an attorney and the attorney explains the contracts to you. This way you never actually did your due diligence, but a legal fiction that you did will exist because you went through an attorney. It is all a lie. I am intelligent enough to know I should understand what I will be signing, but their unwillingness to provide me with copies of the contracts ahead of time is a red flag, but what can I do about it? So what is going to happen is they are going to cause a substantial business interruption. Either I go with the program and just trust them and my attorney or I take several months to study the contracts when I don't have the time, when I have a business to run.

As a matter of law it may be illegal for them to deny me a copy of the contracts, but it may be as someone here put it weapons grade stupid to sue them because I've got to do business with them. In life you have to pick your battles. There are these weird problems that laws like Dodd-Frank may create where it says they have a legal obligation to deny me access to the contracts where you get the stated intention of the law is x, but in practice you get the anti-x.




joether -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/16/2015 12:50:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
My Second Dodd-Frank Thought for the Day

If you have a lot of money, isn't this good news? If you do not care that this creates needless wear and tear on your employees, it suggests that the law is vacuous and if the activities of the big banks are unhealthy and they cannot self-correct, it could destroy civilization.


Money tends to do funny things to different people. It used to be that water, food, shelter and warmth were the needed things. After that, came protection/defense and after that understanding/knowledge. A sort of 'Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs' progression of mankind over the many thousands of years. Sometime within the last fifty years, money, it seems has been added to this 'need' concept. To the extent that some people will behave irrationally to obtain and/or keep it.

Every form of government mankind has encountered has one or more problems with its use. Likewise, each form for handling an economy comes with its source of problems. Try as we might, we have not found neither the perfect government nor economy to operate. However, through the use of mechanisms, we can create a hybrid system of both concepts to a creation that works most of the time. Unfortunately, its.....REALLY....complex. Its done that way given circumstances that lesser creations have either failed or found to have huge faults in their operation (short or long term).

Capitalism by itself has one huge problem: no mechanism to control greed. If Capitalism is left to its own to exist, greed quickly takes over. What might have been 'sound and good business practice' is thrown away if it interferes with the creation of more money coming into the company. That as time progresses, more and more unethical or even illogical actions are taken to support the creation of methods to acquire more money. The fallout usually being terrible on all those associated with that government viewpoint. Note here, that a company is a form of government. A 'sole proprietor' in business is the equivalent to a dictator in politics. A corporation usually has a board of directions whom hire a CEO to run the day-to-day operations; much like a town might have a council whom hires a town manager to run day-to-day operations.

The economic crash of 2006-2007, was created because certain laws at the federal level were removed and/or lessen by Republicans in Congress. The belief was it would help companies become more competitive towards outside forces. However, those laws and regulations were put in place for a number of reasons. When one looks at why those that created the laws in the first place, put them into law will find an issue to prevent what took place in 2006-2007. A law exists to do one of two things: promote good behavior, or minimize bad behavior. Those back then knew what would happen if companies were allowed to prey upon the unknowable or financially unsophisticated with impunity.

If you recall all those ads in print, radio, and TV of 'Have no money? Have bad or no credit? You can buy a house!" Many people whom had non-consistent incomes or above a certain threshold, were allowed to buy houses. Likewise, those with bad or no credit history were also given the chance to purchase a home. The results of both created a destabilizing effect in the under-current of the economy. When those individuals started failing, homes were foreclosed on. The property reverting to the companies that had 'purchased' the house in the first place. Large financial entities obtaining homes cents on the dollar! These people should have NEVER gotten that chance to purchase these homes, had those laws remain in effect. People decades before KNEW THIS. Its been known to anyone that took a microeconomics course in college. So why was it allowed? GREED. Greed demanded the regulations removed, the regulators made powerless, and then to pray on the unsuspecting whom thought such laws were still in effect (that they wouldn't get a house if things were bad, right?).

Play a game of Monopoly helps explain this cause/effect very well. If the game is played per the printed rules, it takes about an hour or two with four players. Three players lose with one clear winner. Since the game has come out, people have added 'homebrew rules' that created problems to the function of the game. Some of these rules added into an effect that was not existing (i.e. money on Free Parking), or an imbalance to the system (i.e. adding more houses to the standard allotment). An what happened? Games would go on....FOREVER. Which is why when most people my generation and older hear "Do you want to play Monopoly" there is a collective groan of pain and desire to watch paint dry instead!

The rules of the game allow for capitalism to exist, but within limits. Imagine if one player after passing 'Go' collected $2,000 instead of $200 like everyone else. Would that imbalance things? Or if a player stopped along the route of his dice roll for Community Chest instead of the actual roll of Boardwalk with a hotel?

The game itself is a very simplistic understanding of economics from 1910, NOT, 2015. Much has changed in over a hundred years. From finance to technology. As such, laws have had to keep pace to keep things from blowing out of pieces. due to problems. Either by people passing laws or their reduction; which creates an unbalancing effect. So creating good laws, to keep pace with reality without becoming to broad or narrow, nor to restricted or unrestricted; is a very tough action to perform every time. Finding good people, to create good laws, that benefit society as a whole; is not as easy of a task as one would hope.








tj444 -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/16/2015 1:27:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

The law that requires people to be "accredited" investors is one major obstacle to creating wealth.. but its for your own good, dontcha know? and the fact that the SEC is dragging its feet on crowdfunding investing is another obstacle.. (although some states have gone ahead on their own)


The problem is invalid assumptions are being made. First of all, when you are starting a business unless you were opening a lemonade stand the likelihood that you will qualify as an accredited investor is good. The assumption is people are poor and investing is not a business. Investing for individuals is thought of as a hobby. I am dealing with snobs and I suspect Dodd-Frank just made it worse. By the way they invented a new category above accredited. Statistical reasoning is at the heart of it. Oh, individuals are statistically speaking dumb smucks, therefore since you are an individual who has yet to incorporate you are a dumb smuck. I must protect you from yourself for I am an evil monster! First of all, the bank shouldn't be an evil monster. Hence, you shouldn't have to be protected from an evil monster. The thinking is ridiculous and you have to deal with a bank. It isn't something you can avoid.

Incorporation is trivial. I do not wish to act prematurely, however. There are different ways to do it. A dumb smuck will incorporate because it is expected before they have any idea what they are doing. They want people to just go along with the program and this is rewarded big time. They don't want you to do your due diligence. They want you to be a dumb smuck. Professionals want you to be dependent on them. It is good for business.

If you are not a dumb smuck, it is not in your financial best interested to be officially labeled dumb smuck. The labeling is superficial. It is only in your best interest when you really are a dumb smuck, but being put into a statistical category is like saying, it would be politically incorrect to make it explicit. Being labeled dumb smuck is tantamount to denying you the means to start a business because if you are a dumb smuck naturally it would be in your best interest to be denied such privileges. It is about as elitist as you can get. I am encountering things that suggest that what they say about banks and professionals in general is true, but it is problematic in that they have a monopoly.

You cannot say hey wait a minute, this is dishonest. It embitters you, but who is going to be the one who is hurt? The crazy thing about it is, if they are dishonest, as bizarre as it may seem, the law is likely on their side. Why? Because everything they do they do in consultation with attorneys and accountants who have measured all the risks. Even if what they are doing is technically illegal, they know they will likely get away with it ahead of time. They know the system and they know how to whore it out.

What I am trying to figure out is the best way to cope. How do I navigate the insane waters? Do expensive time consuming workarounds exist? They do, but life is short and they are not giving me romantic feelings. I suppose I should be grateful for the expensive time consuming workarounds because it means there is hope. Eventually, I'll get past it.

What infuriates me is their unwillingness to send me a copy of the contracts that I will need to sign. I want to study them ahead of time. The way you do it is you go to an attorney and the attorney explains the contracts to you. This way you never actually did your due diligence, but a legal fiction that you did will exist because you went through an attorney. It is all a lie. I am intelligent enough to know I should understand what I will be signing, but their unwillingness to provide me with copies of the contracts ahead of time is a red flag, but what can I do about it? So what is going to happen is they are going to cause a substantial business interruption. Either I go with the program and just trust them and my attorney or I take several months to study the contracts when I don't have the time, when I have a business to run.

As a matter of law it may be illegal for them to deny me a copy of the contracts, but it may be as someone here put it weapons grade stupid to sue them because I've got to do business with them. In life you have to pick your battles. There are these weird problems that laws like Dodd-Frank may create where it says they have a legal obligation to deny me access to the contracts where you get the stated intention of the law is x, but in practice you get the anti-x.

yeah, well as i have said before, in the US they make things 3 times harder and 3 times more hoops to jump thru with plenty of gotchas that can prevent you from doing what you want to do..

as far as the contracts go, have your lawyer request them, then he can send them to you so you can do your own dilligence and have your list of questions lined up before seeing him/her to get those questions answered & before signing them.. What you describe is a lot like a bride being told to sign a prenup the morning of her wedding to some rich dude.. btw, I dont have a high opinion of most lawyers, there are too many crappy ones, i have sued one as a matter of fact.. and yes, i did win (just me against him & his lawyer).. I enjoyed making the little weasel sweat.. [:D]




BenevolentM -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/16/2015 1:43:43 PM)

My Third Dodd-Frank Thought for the Day

By labeling the big banks as systemically important infrastructure their evil was enthroned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The game itself is a very simplistic understanding of economics from 1910, NOT, 2015. Much has changed in over a hundred years.


Is it possible less has changed than we think. We think the game has changed, but did anything fundamentally change? The laws of physics are still the same. The moon still orbits the Earth. The Republicans felt a fundamental shift had occurred. That may have been at the heart of the problem, a belief that things had actually changed when they didn't. The assumptions made by Glass-Steagall though they are assumptions are solid and not especially intrusive. Dodd-Frank on the other hand is intrusive and there is no clear reason to believe that it is solid.

First of all it clearly violates Occam's razor, but putting on the devil's advocate hat, How might it be justified? It could potentially be justified by saying that the shape is complex and needs a many faced wrapper. Still it is awfully difficult justifying such an extraordinary deviation. Everything that the bill stands for can be horribly twisted including the notion that banking infrastructure is systemically important. Glass-Steagall side stepped all these difficulties in an elegant manner. It did not enthrone the devils.




BenevolentM -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/16/2015 4:17:56 PM)

I came by a discussion about money and how banking commits a number of frauds according to common law. This is not necessarily a problem because by analogy the physics of Einstein's relativity commits a number of errors according to Newtonian physics. So what? Adolf called it Jewish physics, but we know that Einstein got it right and Adolph got it wrong.

The problem is it is a deviation from Occam's razor. The deviation was justified and proven, however. How are the sort of extraordinary deviations that Dodd-Frank makes justified? Liberals seem to think that intention is magical. If the intention of the law is x, you don't get the anti-x.




BenevolentM -> RE: Dodd-Frank (3/16/2015 5:22:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

as far as the contracts go, have your lawyer request them, then he can send them to you so you can do your own diligence and have your list of questions lined up before seeing him/her to get those questions answered & before signing them.. What you describe is a lot like a bride being told to sign a prenup the morning of her wedding to some rich dude.. btw, I dont have a high opinion of most lawyers, there are too many crappy ones, i have sued one as a matter of fact.. and yes, i did win (just me against him & his lawyer).. I enjoyed making the little weasel sweat.. [:D]


Yeah, attorneys screw women, but unfortunately people often cannot handle the truth either. Sudden revelation is how the world does business. It is a like a plant closure where you don't get the pink slip or any foreknowledge that the plant was closing until the last minute giving everyone a case of fubar. Surely, such information is protected insider information according to Dodd-Frank. Evil is not something you can defeat easily. Liberals seem to think it is easy. All you have to do is just do it. The devil will just retreat. It takes an act of God to get the devil to retreat. With plant closings I suspect it has to do with ensuring that the employees flawlessly fulfill their responsibilities up to the very end.

I am trying to figure out how to be wise in business. How to pick a law firm. How to pick an accounting firm, etc. There seems to be no truly satisfactory way to do it. What you can do to a limited except is do what you can do is not make it too attractive and easy to do. A crooked attorney can seem honest if they fail to screw you. In some respects the lie, that is the simulation of truth, is better than the truth. Ignorance is bliss. Better they not get a chance to screw you over period. What is in their heart is for God to know.

The referral system helps to keep them honest. My reasoned approach has a tendency to side step such nuisances and discounts the importance of the referral. I suspect I may be falling into some easy to make mistakes. What makes referrals important? It helps you leverage not only your personal wealth, but their income stream as a whole. It is known that if you want to keep your attorney honest you pay them by the hour instead of a percentage, but few can afford to do this. Businesses can afford to pay them by the hour whereas people tend to be poor and cannot. The poor tend to get dishonest professionals. Even the rich are vulnerable if they are too trusting. How do you balance mistrust with trust? My inclination is to subject them to an x-ray; spread those legs, for I am going to give you an examination to be double certain because I don't trust the x-ray machine, then hand them a chastity belt. Yes, this does seem to be my inclination.

If the referral is key, then the referral hub is key. I do not feel referral is good enough nor a clean record. How do you go beyond?




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