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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 7:50:03 AM   
dcnovice


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FR

PoliFact offers some thoughts on how the Indiana law compares with others:

Conservatives in Indiana and elsewhere see the Religious Freedom Restoration Act as a vehicle for fighting back against the legalization of same-sex marriage.

* * *

When Pence signed SB 101 in a private ceremony, three people who work for groups that supported the same-sex marriage ban and want to limit civil rights for gays and lesbians were in attendance. One of the lobbyists, Eric Miller of Advance America, heralded the state’s law as protecting Christian bakers, florists and photographers from penalty "for refusing to participate in a homosexual marriage, among other examples." This is a direct reference to high-profile cases of Christian wedding vendors refusing to provide services for gay couples in other states.

* * *

In one sense, there isn’t all that much difference between the bill that got Obama’s vote in Illinois 17 years ago and the bill that Pence signed into law last week. But how people want the law applied, on top of other legislative changes, has changed the landscape dramatically, said Steve Sanders, Indiana University Maurer School of Law professor of family and constitutional law.

"What has completely changed are the politics around the issue, the symbolism of what voting for one of these laws means," Sanders said.

* * *

Still, constitutional law professors say both sides are misinterpreting the point of these laws. The courts have not approved exemptions to discriminate against gays under religious freedom laws, and likely would not because the government has a compelling interest in protecting civil rights.

* * *

Pressed by Stephanopoulos, Pence said he would not seek protections based on sexual orientation in Indiana and would not say whether Hoosiers could refuse services to gays or lesbians.

"To say, ‘We did what Illinois did,’ without acknowledging the fact that Illinois gave protections, really misses the real debate," [law professor Robin] Wilson said.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/mar/29/mike-pence/did-barack-obama-vote-religious-freedom-restoratio/

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(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 7:54:24 AM   
Lucylastic


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so the back story is that the original bill signed by 20 states or rather 19 back in 1996?, the repubs have been bringing these anti gay bills up.
Indiana NOW signs it(LOL) 20 years later.... all of a sudden? i guess they just forgot about it?
I hardly think so. This hasnt been seen before the hobby lobby case, Virginia, ohio, Arkansas, all have these amazing ratifications...
fuck all to do with the original purpose.
Discrimination, not religious "liberty" is behind these "new" bills. being allowed to hate with impunity, Hate is behind it and looking for a reason to legally do it.
ta da



DADT was repealed by Obama even tho Clinton signed it into law, a shitty law now is no more.
Anyone that doesnt know that Obama has a WELL recorded evolvement on gay marriage has his head in his ass
Discrimination and hate is such a part of the christian ideology!!!!!

Did anyone watch Pence on ABC?
chicken shit gobbledygook bullshit asshole.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/what-makes-indianas-religious-freedom-law-different/388997/
There’s a factual dispute about the new Indiana law. It is called a “Religious Freedom Restoration Act,” like the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, passed in 1990. Thus a number of its defenders have claimed it is really the same law. Here, for example, is the Weekly Standard’s John McCormack: “Is there any difference between Indiana's law and the federal law? Nothing significant.” I am not sure what McCormack was thinking; but even my old employer, The Washington Post, seems to believe that if a law has a similar title as another law, they must be identical. “Indiana is actually soon to be just one of 20 states with a version of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or RFRA,” the Post’s Hunter Schwarz wrote, linking to this map created by the National Conference of State Legislatures.

The problem with this statement is that, well, it’s false. That becomes clear when you read and compare those tedious state statutes. If you do that, you will find that the Indiana statute has two features the federal RFRA—and most state RFRAs—do not. First, the Indiana law explicitly allows any for-profit business to assert a right to “the free exercise of religion.” The federal RFRA doesn’t contain such language, and neither does any of the state RFRAs except South Carolina’s; in fact, Louisiana and Pennsylvania, explicitly exclude for-profit businesses from the protection of their RFRAs.

The new Indiana statute also contains this odd language: “A person whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened, by a violation of this chapter may assert the violation or impending violation as a claim or defense in a judicial or administrative proceeding, regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity is a party to the proceeding.” (My italics.) Neither the federal RFRA, nor 18 of the 19 state statutes cited by the Post, says anything like this; only the Texas RFRA, passed in 1999, contains similar language.

What these words mean is, first, that the Indiana statute explicitly recognizes that a for-profit corporation has “free exercise” rights matching those of individuals or churches. A lot of legal thinkers thought that idea was outlandish until last year’s decision in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, in which the Court’s five conservatives interpreted the federal RFRA to give some corporate employers a religious veto over their employees’ statutory right to contraceptive coverage.

Second, the Indiana statute explicitly makes a business’s “free exercise” right a defense against a private lawsuit by another person, rather than simply against actions brought by government. Why does this matter? Well, there’s a lot of evidence that the new wave of “religious freedom” legislation was impelled, at least in part, by a panic over a New Mexico state-court decision, Elane Photography v. Willock. In that case, a same-sex couple sued a professional photography studio that refused to photograph the couple’s wedding. New Mexico law bars discrimination in “public accommodations” on the basis of sexual orientation. The studio said that New Mexico’s RFRA nonetheless barred the suit; but the state’s Supreme Court held that the RFRA did not apply “because the government is not a party.”



more states and anti gay laws
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/03/ohio-attorney-general-gays-already-have-too-much-power-thats-why-they-cant-get-married/comments/#disqus
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/01/13/no-gays-allowed-law-set-to-pass-in-virginia/
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/03/whoops-indianas-anti-gay-religious-freedom-act-opens-the-door-for-the-first-church-of-cannabis/

PS
In 1997, in the City of Boerne v. Flores decision, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) did not apply to the states.
Since 1997, 19 states have enacted state RFRAs. These laws are intended to echo the federal RFRA, but are not necessarily identical to the federal law. Mississippi is the most recent state to enact a RFRA, doing so in 2014.
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM RESTORATION ACTS
Jurisdiction
Statute
Alabama
Ala. Const. Art. I, §3.01
Arizona
Ariz. Rev. Stat. §41-1493.01
Connecticut
Conn. Gen. Stat. §52-571b
Florida
Fla. Stat. §761.01, et seq.
Idaho
Idaho Code §73-402
Illinois
Ill. Rev. Stat. Ch. 775, §35/1, et seq.
Kansas
Kan. Stat. §60-5301, et seq.
Kentucky
Ky. Rev. Stat. §446.350
Louisiana
La. Rev. Stat. §13:5231, et seq.
Mississippi
Miss. Code §11-61-1
Missouri
Mo. Rev. Stat. §1.302
New Mexico
N.M. Stat. §28-22-1, et seq.
Oklahoma
Okla. Stat. tit. 51, §251, et seq.
Pennsylvania
Pa. Stat. tit. 71, §2403
Rhode Island
R.I. Gen. Laws §42-80.1-1
South Carolina
S.C. Code §1-32-10, et seq.
Tennessee
Tenn. Code §4-1-407
Texas
Tex. Civ. Prac. & Remedies Code §110.003
Virginia
Va. Code §57-1
http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/state-rfra-statutes.aspx

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 3/30/2015 7:56:34 AM >


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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 8:10:14 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Interesting bit of backstory:

Interesting bit of backstory:

When a Democrat introduced the Federal RFRA, which Congress passed with overwhelming Democrat support, and which was signed into law by a Democrat president, it wasn't anti-gay. When 19 states enacted materially identical legislation, it wasn't anti-gay. But Indiana's materially identical law is anti-gay because some assholes are in a photo.

Tell me again who is lying?

K.



it isnt identical


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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 8:21:55 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

The three antigay lobbyists are in positions of proximity and honor as the governor signs the bill.

Yeah, I get it. The bill is "anti-gay" because of who is standing near the Governor. Whoosh.

K.


(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 8:40:40 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Discrimination, not religious "liberty" is behind these "new" bills. being allowed to hate with impunity

Ohferchrissake, get a grip. What's "behind" these laws is prioritizing religion over non-religion. The rest is detail. They uniformly institute special protections for religiously motivated conduct (note: only religiously motivated conduct) whenever and wherever it conflicts with duly enacted and otherwise unassailable civil laws.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

In 1997, in the City of Boerne v. Flores decision, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) did not apply to the states.

Staying within the confines of the specific case before them, the Court ruled on narrow grounds. But it noted, in dicta, the separation of powers problem inherent in the RFRA, and by extension any state laws of the type. The Constitution is what the Supreme Court says it is, not Congress, and there are clear Establishment Clause issues with any law that prioritizes religion over non-religion.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/30/2015 8:50:56 AM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 8:45:30 AM   
Lucylastic


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LOL sorry
I have a firm grip actually its pretty brutal..You see it your way, Ill see it mine.
If you are only going to respond to two lines, im sorry.... BAH
Its not worth the energy or irritation to further back my links up the wazoo with you.


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Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 8:48:56 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

LOL sorry
I have a firm grip actually its pretty brutal..You see it your way, Ill see it mine.
If you are only going to respond to two lines, im sorry.... BAH
Its not worth the energy or irritation to further back my links up the wazoo with you.

I quoted the statements I wanted to comment on. And energy or not, you won't be backing up your mind-reading delusions anytime soon.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/30/2015 9:39:08 AM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 9:40:41 AM   
Lucylastic


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Bait fail....calling bullshit on you again and.you still going on and on , still claiming it was identical, both dc and i showed you are wrong
.
prove it wrong instead of projecting about*my delusions*

Or contine backpedalling with **sarcasm**
No one believed that either.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 9:41:43 AM   
Lucylastic


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Lol nice edit


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Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 9:44:35 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Bait fail....calling bullshit on you again and.you still going on and on , still claiming it was identical, both dc and i showed you are wrong

You're lying. I said it was materially identical, which it is, for the reasons cited in my response to your post.

K.


(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 9:56:02 AM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

More RFRA follies...

Conn. Gov. Will Sign Executive Order On Travel In Protest Of Indiana Law

Connecticut Gov. Dannel Malloy (D) on Monday announced he plans to sign an executive order on state-funded travel in response to Indiana Gov. Mike Pence (R) signing a controversial bill into law that could allow businesses to discriminate against gay people.

Apparently he doesn't know that Connecticut has enacted the same strict-scrutiny requirements for "burdening" religious expression.

Connecticut 52-571b

Sec. 52-571b. Action or defense authorized when state or political subdivision burdens a person’s exercise of religion

(a) The state or any political subdivision of the state shall not burden a person’s exercise of religion under section 3 of article first of the Constitution of the state even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability, except as provided in subsection (b) of this section.

(b) The state or any political subdivision of the state may burden a person’s exercise of religion only if it demonstrates that application of the burden to the person (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest, and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.

(c) A person whose exercise of religion has been burdened in violation of the provisions of this section may assert that violation as a claim or defense in a judicial proceeding and obtain appropriate relief against the state or any political subdivision of the state.

(d) Nothing in this section shall be construed to authorize the state or any political subdivision of the state to burden any religious belief.

(e) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect, interpret or in any way address that portion of article seventh of the Constitution of the state that prohibits any law giving a preference to any religious society or denomination in the state. The granting of government funding, benefits or exemptions, to the extent permissible under the Constitution of the state, shall not constitute a violation of this section. As used in this subsection, the term “granting” does not include the denial of government funding, benefits or exemptions.

(f) For the purposes of this section, “state or any political subdivision of the state” includes any agency, board, commission, department, officer or employee of the state or any political subdivision of the state, and “demonstrates” means meets the burdens of going forward with the evidence and of persuasion.


K.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 10:01:07 AM   
Kirata


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And finally, how far is this shit going to be allowed to go?

Amendments to Religious Freedom Restoration Act (further expansion of rights for believers)

Rules: a. Expands definition of “religious exercise” to be: “any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief,” including “the use, building, conversion of real property for the purpose of religious exercise” so long as the person, assembly, or institution “uses or intends to use the property for that purpose.”
~Source

It ain't just all about "hating gays," folks. Get over it.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/30/2015 10:20:49 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 10:05:33 AM   
Lucylastic


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http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/03/30/3640374/big-lie-media-tells-indianas-new-religious-freedom-law/

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 10:13:53 AM   
Kirata


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There's nothing new about Indiana's law. Connecticut doesn't even require that the burden be "substantial," and Mississippi's law includes suits between private parties.


Image source

K.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/30/2015 10:19:38 AM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 10:50:37 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/03/30/3640374/big-lie-media-tells-indianas-new-religious-freedom-law/

Thinkshit.org is not an acceptable reference for anything. From the link:

The Indiana law differs substantially from the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, signed by President Clinton in 1993, and all other state RFRAs . . . Every other Religious Freedom Restoration Act applies to disputes between a person or entity and a government. Indiana’s is the only law that explicitly applies to disputes between private citizens...

NOT TRUE (Mississippi: see previous)

Various federal courts have differing interpretations of the scope of the federal RFRA. The Indiana law explicitly resolves all those disputes in one direction — and then goes even further. This is evident in Section 5 of the Indiana law which provides protections to religious practices "whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief."

NOT TRUE (Federal Law)

42 U.S. Code § 2000bb–1 - Free exercise of religion protected; 42 U.S. Code § 2000cc–5 - Definitions: (7)(A) The term “religious exercise” includes any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief. ~Source

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/30/2015 11:19:49 AM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 11:19:33 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) of 2000, 42 U.S.C. § 2000cc-5(7)(A) defines "religious exercise" as follows: "The term 'religious exercise' includes any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief."

Is the RLUIPA of 2000 the same thing as the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993?

I can't find the "whether or not compelled by" language in DOJ's pdf of the 1993 law.

http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/jmd/legacy/2014/07/24/act-pl103-141.pdf

* * *

ETA: A step toward answering my own question:

RLUIPA was enacted by the United States Congress in 2000 to correct the problems of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) of 1993. The act was passed in both the House of Representatives and the Senate by unanimous consent in voice votes, meaning that no objection was raised to its passage, so no written vote was taken.

* * *

In 1997, the United States Supreme Court held the RFRA to be unconstitutional as applied to state and local governments, in City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507. Unlike the RFRA, which required religious accommodation in virtually all spheres of life, RLUIPA only applies to prisoner and land use cases.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Land_Use_and_Institutionalized_Persons_Act

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 3/30/2015 11:27:55 AM >


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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 11:22:38 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) of 2000, 42 U.S.C. § 2000cc-5(7)(A) defines "religious exercise" as follows: "The term 'religious exercise' includes any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief."

Is the RLUIPA of 2000 the same thing as the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993?

I can't find the "whether or not compelled by" language in DOJ's pdf of the 1993 law.

http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/jmd/legacy/2014/07/24/act-pl103-141.pdf

The updated RFRA is here. Click on Definitions:

(4) the term “exercise of religion” means religious exercise, as defined in section 2000cc–5 of this title.

That takes you to the (updated) quote I posted.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/30/2015 11:39:10 AM >

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 11:49:21 AM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

ETA: A step toward answering my own question:

Bingo. Sorry for the confusion.

K.


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 1:37:52 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
LOL sorry
I have a firm grip actually its pretty brutal..You see it your way, Ill see it mine.
If you are only going to respond to two lines, im sorry.... BAH
Its not worth the energy or irritation to further back my links up the wazoo with you.


My experience with Kirata (to which there is much) is that he NEVER gives more than three or four sentences of thought on an issue. For Kirata to give a well-thought out and deep post, is like most conservatives on this forum admitting their argument got PWNED by a liberal. Just not going to happen.

You've seen one of my 'normal' size posts. Kirata will reply with just two sentences. And what are they?

"Bozo, your just making shit up again!" and "(what ever lame excuse of a reply he's trying to attack me on now...)".

So don't feel so bad (not that I think I would). You won the argument. Hands down in fact. He, nor other conservatives/libertarians on here have the due decency to admit defeat. When in a hole, they keep digging, since the answer has to be there.....somewhere....


(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 3/30/2015 1:58:26 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/03/30/3640374/big-lie-media-tells-indianas-new-religious-freedom-law/

Thinkshit.org is not an acceptable reference for anything. From the link:

The Indiana law differs substantially from the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, signed by President Clinton in 1993, and all other state RFRAs . . . Every other Religious Freedom Restoration Act applies to disputes between a person or entity and a government. Indiana’s is the only law that explicitly applies to disputes between private citizens...

NOT TRUE (Mississippi: see previous)

Various federal courts have differing interpretations of the scope of the federal RFRA. The Indiana law explicitly resolves all those disputes in one direction — and then goes even further. This is evident in Section 5 of the Indiana law which provides protections to religious practices "whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief."

NOT TRUE (Federal Law)

42 U.S. Code § 2000bb–1 - Free exercise of religion protected; 42 U.S. Code § 2000cc–5 - Definitions: (7)(A) The term “religious exercise” includes any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief. ~Source

K.



So, 'according' to all this bullshit your shoveling, its 'OK' for Christians to attack gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender, knowing they are 'protected' by the law. I'm sorry, is the Holy Bible not enough protection when these 'sacks of shit' push their bigotry onto others anymore, that they need 'laws made by men' to protect them? this Indiana law has nothing to do with 'Good Government' and all to do with petty politics for a certain governor's 2016 presidential race.

Its a pretty slipper slope when the state allows discrimination by laws passed onto a group of people. More so when its one religious viewpoint towards another (which the 1st amendment protects against). US History shows the same sort of 'hateful Christians' used legal laws to discriminate against blacks. An your old enough to remember such an era; so you have NO GROUNDS to bullshit here and say you dont recall it. If I can remember the Carter Administration, you remember the era of white's using legal laws to discriminate against blacks due to 'religious viewpoints'.

I wonder if the reverse is true? You arrive in an ER, and there is only one ER doctor on hand. Unfortunately for the lame Christian hating asshole, he's gay. And he knows the Christian is a bigot! According to the 'law', as conservatives are pushing it, the doctor should not have to treat this person at all (because the same is true if the actors were opposite). Since his religious viewpoint trumps the Christian's medical issue. The Christian's medical issue is a financial issue when it comes right down to the facts, just like a Christian baker would charge a gay couple looking to buy a cake in normal circumstances of professional behavior. Therefore, why should the gay medical ER doctor treat the Christian bigot butt's? Don't Christians have some sky deity that will protect them from harm in the first place?

Yeah, this topic gets ugly, Kirata. But that is what you want. That is what your defending. You enjoy chaos and destruction. You laugh at the suffering, and mock the poor. You hate the US Government, and all Americans whom don't bow down to your religious viewpoints. This law will get struck down over violation of the 1st amendment. If you can't understand that, well...

...Your a bozo (to use your favorite tagline back at ya!). If you dont like being called one, why do you call people the name?

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