RE: Dom/sub trait comparison

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littleladybug -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/30/2015 6:31:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes Passive-aggressive behavior is the indirect expression of hostility, such as through procrastination, stubbornness, sullenness, or deliberate or repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible. Which would be the very definition of a lot of people in the area in which I live. And, the direct opposite of what I experienced in the area in which I grew up (thankfully). A "submissive" trait? Not even close. ETA: Unless we're equating "submissive traits" with things that we look down at. In which case, what is the point of this question again?

GoddessManko -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/30/2015 6:32:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit Yes I have no qualms against those that decide to "fake it til you make it" I think that is a valuable and admirable skill, a certain amount of self deception can help one achieve things they would be otherwise unable to, or it my hinder them. An awareness of it and ability to control it are of more use than hiding it from one self. However I understand where they are coming from,that lying to someone is essentially giving up your sense of self. And thusly,must be submissive... I think where it differs is in how one views themselves. Is the lie what you want to become? Is it what you hope you don't become? Is it what someone else told you you are?... some lies can be used to better one self others to tear themselves down. I have a similar view regarding blind acceptance of authority. I always see it as submissive no matter whether it is beneficial,or even required for survival. Someone who would turn over their consciousness to the will of another and just assume they know best for them.... it maybe a doctor, or a teacher, or a lawyer, it doesn't matter.... at the point someone says "you know what is better for me than I do, I will believe you" they are submissive to me, it is also one of my least desirable traits. One of my few black and white lines of thought. so while with lying I don't feel it is a submissive trait I understand the 'giving over of one self' train of thought that led to it. I don't know if it's a matter of faking it til you make it. It might be to keep employees calm, to solve a problem, to be socially smart when networking/marketing a business. My bestie took over his father's businesses but it was hardly "faking til you make it". He was made mentally strong by their upbringing, fiscally and business wise by gaining his MBA at Berkeley. There were no shortcuts for him. However he lies a lot to most people except me because he sees me differently from most people. He confides in me in some ways and in many ways I admire him because he is strong for many people. I don't think he is giving up his sense of sense, he self identifies as a "son of a bitch" and he owns it. He owns every part of himself. I fucking love him for it and the sentiment is requited. The lying is more for the sake of others rather than himself, so there are rhymes and reasons for things. And I think he is one of the best people I will ever meet in my lifetime. Positive of it. Everyone lies, period. Some more than others. Some greater than others. Some live a lie. To not accept that is to disregard truth itself. I also disagree with your assessment of "blind acceptance of authority". People have their reasons for believing in an authority figure. In the case of your examples, it's credentials. A cardiologist would better know how to perform an EKG or perform a triple bypass than most other people. I don't see how this can be debated.

smileforme50 -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/30/2015 6:38:12 PM)
I don't think passive/aggressive is a primarily submissive or dominant trait. Nookie mentioned that she knows "quite a few shy yet dominant people. And insecure ones." So do I...and I have seen a lot of passive/aggressive behavior in those Doms. I've heard a lot of Doms self-describe themselves as "arrogant". Personally, I think this arrogance is a negative trait and is related to the passive/aggressiveness.

DerangedUnit -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/30/2015 6:55:08 PM)
This thread isn't about what people agree with, it is about immediate perceptions. It doesn't matter if someone agrees, we aren't supposed to... if we all agreed it wouldn't be "our perception". The beauty in people is in their differences and their ability to see the world differently. I like to understand how others see the world, not why they don't see it like me.... the world would be royally fucked if everyone saw things like me [:D]

GoddessManko -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/30/2015 8:23:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit This thread isn't about what people agree with, it is about immediate perceptions. It doesn't matter if someone agrees, we aren't supposed to... if we all agreed it wouldn't be "our perception". The beauty in people is in their differences and their ability to see the world differently. I like to understand how others see the world, not why they don't see it like me.... the world would be royally fucked if everyone saw things like me [:D] LOL I'm not saying they should. I'm saying it just doesn't fit in my mind no matter how I try to rationalize it but that's fine. Honestly this thread and others only helped me get through my inventory, apologies. I was just trying to keep the conversation going in the interim because mundane tasks are no fun for me. I was also stating your understanding of things is something I disagree with but it's not exactly like the Titanic just sunk, LOL.

DerangedUnit -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/30/2015 9:10:09 PM)
Yeah I wouldn't be able to be friends with the guy you mentioned.... and I like to assume everyone tells the truth, even if they use a lie to do it. Plus if I thought everyone was lying I'd be even more likely to study the surgical techniques of a triple bypass before letting a doctor near me. ;) but then I do that anyways..... for fun. not cardiology, too mundane... everyone has heart problems blah blah though I have made a heart in a jar(an extra curricular anatomy class I took at what would be the equivalent of 3rd or 4th grade((wasn't in school)) that let us dissect all sorts of stuff and mount it in jars, fun stuff)... yeah good thing the world isn't like me :P

Awareness -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/30/2015 9:17:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko To see lying as a submissive trait is odd. Most CEOs lie as a part of their job. It is a necessity. It is pretty much a job requirement. It is something everyone does. That was my point. And often it is out of necessity, not out of desire to absolve blame. CEO's have an extraordinarily high number of sociopaths in their ranks. Which means their lying is part of their personality disorder.

dreamlady -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/30/2015 9:57:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit Do you take someone at their word generally if they say they are dominant or submissive or do you rely on some of those traits to define it for you? Generally, I'm not going to burst someone's bubble if they want to believe and want others to accept that they are Dominant or submissive. While there are some masochists and bottoms who have come to realize that submission doesn't come naturally to them, although it's often assumed they are of a submissive bent, I have yet to see a Top call himself or herself a Top and not a Dominant. It would appear they (and others) correlate performing Topping activities with actual Dominance. But you subsequently posted what you meant were dominant and submissive traits applying to anybody, not specifically traits that many or most Dominants share or that most submissives have in common. I will say this, in terms of self-labeling (or mutually agreed-upon labeling where Master and slave have determined what they are in relation to one another, which is their perogative to decide), I find that those who have to go around touting how Dominant they are or how submissive they are. . . aren't. With self-proclaimed Dominants, it's more of an ego issue or superiority complex. Somebody posted not long ago that being a slave to one's ego hardly makes you a Dominant, or words to that effect. To this, I heartily agree. If somebody can't get past their own rigid, boxed-in pretensions, then I don't see him or her deserving of making life-impacting decisions for anybody else or being fit to lead and take charge of others. On the other hand, there are some who are submissively inclined who want so fervantly to become a "slave" that they can't see what just about everybody else can see, which is that they are so independently minded or opinionated, that this is why they keep beating their head against the wall -- trying in vain to make a square peg fit into a round hole, so to speak. DreamLady

DerangedUnit -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/30/2015 10:19:43 PM)
Yeah I don't go around telling people who they should think they are... what they think they are is a part of who they are anyways but I will "raise an eyebrow".... one example I can think of is a dom(I had been invited to an event by) who asked me to fetch his boots and is went and got the pair of brand new Harley brand combat boots from the closet.... this was a guy that wore a suit to work every day so is didn't expect much "leather" but I joked "ooh Harley that's hard core man" and I expected him to laugh it off instead he got really defensive and started telling stories about how he had other ones and told me to pull the logo off the boots. I'm not very good at hiding my feelings.... I suck completely at it. So I was smiling ear to ear and trying not to burst out laughing. Also I think most dominants have head that they aren't "supposed to" call themselves dominant because I always get the "well I'm not really a traditional dom" by exactly those types. The opinionated subs are the only ones I like though, fire is fun.

GoddessManko -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/30/2015 10:50:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko To see lying as a submissive trait is odd. Most CEOs lie as a part of their job. It is a necessity. It is pretty much a job requirement. It is something everyone does. That was my point. And often it is out of necessity, not out of desire to absolve blame. CEO's have an extraordinarily high number of sociopaths in their ranks. Which means their lying is part of their personality disorder. So do brokers and lawyers. The truth is harsher than most people realize. [:D]

Awareness -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/30/2015 11:39:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko To see lying as a submissive trait is odd. Most CEOs lie as a part of their job. It is a necessity. It is pretty much a job requirement. It is something everyone does. That was my point. And often it is out of necessity, not out of desire to absolve blame. CEO's have an extraordinarily high number of sociopaths in their ranks. Which means their lying is part of their personality disorder. So do brokers and lawyers. The truth is harsher than most people realize. [:D] That's one reason why I never bothered going into law. I realised right away that I lacked the necessary ethical deficiency.

NookieNotes -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/31/2015 5:32:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko Lying is not a submissive trait, nor is "passing of blame". It is the trait of an irresponsible person. That holds no bearing on gender, title or disposition. Everyone lies so we have a moral compass which enables us to hold ourselves accountable. That is the reality of the world. It is normal to do so, propensity of the lie/deception is entirely different and that speaks to personal character. Nothing about submission is inherently negative in my mind. All positive. To be clear: lying is a submissive behavior, in my view. I am not saying it is the behavior of A SUBMISSIVE. The adjective and the noun, to me, hold different definitions. A submissive (n), is not always submissive (adj). A dominant (n) is not always dominant (adj). They are the same word with different meanings for their different roles in our lives. A dominant (n) may engage in submissive (adj) behavior, because socially, it's required. That does not change their overall dominance (adj). I also do not see everything about submission as positive. It may be either positive or negative, based on what it's backed up by. Same thing with dominance. quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko To see lying as a submissive trait is odd. Most CEOs lie as a part of their job. It is a necessity. It is pretty much a job requirement. It is something everyone does. That was my point. And often it is out of necessity, not out of desire to absolve blame. Necessity. Because they cannot (or will not) tell the truth and still get what they want/need in their business (either because the can't, or because it's easier to do it the other way). Yes. A submissive trait, even when done in pursuit of dominance, or by a dominant person. Ever read fantasy fiction? There are many books that have sects of people who may not lie, or who are physically (magically) incapable. And yet, they are still able to gain power, respect, and, even lie by omitting the truth, talking in circles, etc. Lying is the easy way out, in my eyes, a submissive behavior that clearly points to not being able to keep up otherwise. quote: ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit How much does self perception play into someone's opinions of others. A great deal, I'm thinking. quote: ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit Yes I have no qualms against those that decide to "fake it til you make it" I think that is a valuable and admirable skill, a certain amount of self deception can help one achieve things they would be otherwise unable to, or it my hinder them. An awareness of it and ability to control it are of more use than hiding it from one self. So, I am not saying that lying is inherently BAD, either. It is, however, an admission of weakness, to oneself, and (hopefully undetected) to the person lied to. quote: However I understand where they are coming from,that lying to someone is essentially giving up your sense of self. And thusly,must be submissive... I think where it differs is in how one views themselves. Is the lie what you want to become? Is it what you hope you don't become? Is it what someone else told you you are?... some lies can be used to better one self others to tear themselves down. Agreed. Like I said, I am not attaching value to it. I do not believe that submission is inherently negative, even in a dominant. quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes Passive-aggressive behavior is the indirect expression of hostility, such as through procrastination, stubbornness, sullenness, or deliberate or repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible. Which would be the very definition of a lot of people in the area in which I live. And, the direct opposite of what I experienced in the area in which I grew up (thankfully). A "submissive" trait? Not even close. ETA: Unless we're equating "submissive traits" with things that we look down at. In which case, what is the point of this question again? I've clarified my position on the process. And yes, to me, it is a perfect example of submission. Let me give an example: One friend says to another, "Hey, can I borrow your weedwacker?" The other friend replies, "Sure," but then keeps 'forgetting' to bring over the weedwacker, because, really, the friend returned it without a replacement string and empty of fuel last time, and, besides, the friend has more moeny, why doesn't she buy her own weedwacker? That is submissive behavior. The dominant behavior, in my eyes, would be to do something like, "Hey, friend, could you please make sure to fill it up and replace the string when you return it? That would be awesome." submissive behavior = avoiding the issue, dodging it dominant behavior = addressing the issue, correcting it quote: ORIGINAL: smileforme50 I don't think passive/aggressive is a primarily submissive or dominant trait. Nookie mentioned that she knows "quite a few shy yet dominant people. And insecure ones." So do I...and I have seen a lot of passive/aggressive behavior in those Doms. I've heard a lot of Doms self-describe themselves as "arrogant". Personally, I think this arrogance is a negative trait and is related to the passive/aggressiveness. I think the difference is whether you are discussing submissive (adj) traits or traits of submissives (n). Passive-aggression is not a trait of submissives (n), necessarily at all. quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko To see lying as a submissive trait is odd. Most CEOs lie as a part of their job. It is a necessity. It is pretty much a job requirement. It is something everyone does. That was my point. And often it is out of necessity, not out of desire to absolve blame. CEO's have an extraordinarily high number of sociopaths in their ranks. Which means their lying is part of their personality disorder. And this.

GoddessManko -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/31/2015 6:37:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko Lying is not a submissive trait, nor is "passing of blame". It is the trait of an irresponsible person. That holds no bearing on gender, title or disposition. Everyone lies so we have a moral compass which enables us to hold ourselves accountable. That is the reality of the world. It is normal to do so, propensity of the lie/deception is entirely different and that speaks to personal character. Nothing about submission is inherently negative in my mind. All positive. To be clear: lying is a submissive behavior, in my view. I am not saying it is the behavior of A SUBMISSIVE. The adjective and the noun, to me, hold different definitions. A submissive (n), is not always submissive (adj). A dominant (n) is not always dominant (adj). They are the same word with different meanings for their different roles in our lives. A dominant (n) may engage in submissive (adj) behavior, because socially, it's required. That does not change their overall dominance (adj). I also do not see everything about submission as positive. It may be either positive or negative, based on what it's backed up by. Same thing with dominance. Still not seeing it. Saying a company is projected to perform x way is a submissive trait? I'm trying to rationalize it and not happening, sorry. Mental block. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko To see lying as a submissive trait is odd. Most CEOs lie as a part of their job. It is a necessity. It is pretty much a job requirement. It is something everyone does. That was my point. And often it is out of necessity, not out of desire to absolve blame. quote: Necessity. Because they cannot (or will not) tell the truth and still get what they want/need in their business (either because the can't, or because it's easier to do it the other way). Yes. A submissive trait, even when done in pursuit of dominance, or by a dominant person. Ever read fantasy fiction? There are many books that have sects of people who may not lie, or who are physically (magically) incapable. And yet, they are still able to gain power, respect, and, even lie by omitting the truth, talking in circles, etc. Lying is the easy way out, in my eyes, a submissive behavior that clearly points to not being able to keep up otherwise. Fantasy fiction cannot be transcribed to real life in my view but OK, if that is your perception. To me, it seems like it is almost like breathing, it's just something people do.

NookieNotes -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/31/2015 7:03:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit Ah that is how you see passive aggressive, I see how that can be seen that way but while those traits I do see kinda as passive(I say kinda because I see the act of deference as an act) I don't see them as aggressive so much as defensive. Agreed. However, passive-aggressive is actually a clinical term that made it into common usage. That's why it is defined the way it is. quote: Aggressive I see as more directly acting against another, defensive merely tries to push the blame away( or find anyone to give them an excuse as to why their life isn't what they want that doesn't put the blame on them) I'll agree with you here. Thus the reason for defining the clinical term, so that we can start a dialog on the same page. smiles quote: I'll an example of an argument I heard between two people the beginning of last week(before leaving to take the trash out). "I see you haven't taken the trash out yet, I only ask one thing of you and you can't even manage that. You call yourself a good father. I figured you'd actuallydo it this time since (my name) is here to watch. "You never told me to do it. It's full of your baby's diapers why don't you have to do it" The first is how I see passive aggressive, the latter defensive... both try to defer the job but in different ways. The second is actually the one behaving in a more passive-aggressive manner. If there is an understanding that he is to take out the trash, and he resents her, her baby, her nattering, whatever, and therefore does not take the trash out to show that, rather than taking responsibility for his feelings and talking it out or fixing it.

NookieNotes -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/31/2015 7:07:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko To see lying as a submissive trait is odd. Most CEOs lie as a part of their job. It is a necessity. It is pretty much a job requirement. It is something everyone does. That was my point. And often it is out of necessity, not out of desire to absolve blame. The fact that everyone does it does not change the inherent qualities of the behavior. If your job requirement is to lie, then it is up to you to decide whether you are willing to lie for your job (submit) or not (not submit). Again, I am not saying it is bad. Simply a submissive act. In the case you give, it is simply admitting, "I cannot keep people happy with the truth I have created or have to work with, therefore I will lie, to keep people happy." Submissive. quote: Fantasy fiction cannot be transcribed to real life in my view but OK, if that is your perception. To me, it seems like it is almost like breathing, it's just something people do. Yes, it is. And all people are a mixture of dominant and submissive behaviors. That is a fact, not a value statement.

MercTech -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/31/2015 6:01:38 PM)
Mind reading... Have you ever run across the submissive that is sure that a "twu dominate" will be able to read their mind and supply all their needs with no verbal communication at all? Then there are the dominants that tell the submissive to read their mind so that they can punish them when they can't.

GoddessManko -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/31/2015 6:17:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Mind reading... Have you ever run across the submissive that is sure that a "twu dominate" will be able to read their mind and supply all their needs with no verbal communication at all? Little verbal communication but yes. Not atypical in my experience.

DerangedUnit -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (3/31/2015 6:54:44 PM)
A few of my exes used to joke that I could just because once I get to the "finishing their sentences" phase really quickly.... and it translated into what they wanted to do/eat too... "I feel like watching..." *presses play on show I just started... "oh yeah that..." or start a conversation because you see them thinking about it... it used to really creep some people out I told one "it's no big deal, if it bugs you you can wear a tin foil hat and that will block the transfer 50% of the time but if you really want to be sure order a lead one"

crazyml -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (4/1/2015 11:38:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I view passive-aggressive behavior as inherently submissive. Hmm... Ponders.

sexyred1 -> RE: Dom/sub trait comparison (4/2/2015 12:11:40 AM)
I don't think passive aggressiveness is a submissive trait. I actually know more than a few a Dominant men who were irritatingly passive aggressive, Passive aggressive behavior is manipulative instead of saying what you want directly.

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