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Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 4/1/2015 7:32:34 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/OKeefe-Cert-Petition.pdf

This is an interesting case sent to the Supreme Court. Doesn't make any difference which side you fall on, the stifling of the voice of the people is wrong.
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RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 4/1/2015 11:19:13 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Use of law enforcement to harass those with philosophical differences needs to be squashed whenever identified.

(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 4/2/2015 2:30:14 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		If I understand this issue, its in regards to the District Attorney, one, John T. Chisholm, whom investigated several political conservative groups between 2011-2012 OR the campaign and elected office of Scott Walker (see below on the sources). That these groups did not like being investigated, so decided to sue the D.A. in court for damages. Eric O'Keefe and the Wisconsin Club for Growth are saying that Mr. Chisholm is unfairly targeting the campaign of Gov. Scott Walker.

Further, conservative talk radio host and Republican Charlie Sykes has charged, this is “a vindictive abuse of prosecutorial discretion by partisan investigators” in which “no liberal or Democrat organizations were targeted.”

Source #1 used. Source #2 used.

I use two sources here, because this issue is HEAVILY filled with political ideaoology on both sides. Trying to find a neutral posting of information proved....not easy! Please tell me if this is the correct information?

The first question I have is: What was the District Attorney investigating exactly?

Its one thing to open an investigation over political motives (i.e. The Hillary Emails with Republican/Tea Party on the federal level). Its quite another if the person has some good details that wrong doing has actually taken place. Since that would mean that Mr. O'Keefe is using his court case as a 'smoke and mirrors' diversion to get the people in the state and perhaps at large in the nation on his side.

The talk show host that I mentioned Mr. Skyes believes the District Attorney only investigated conservative groups and not the liberal ones. He notes (from the second source) that the DA has gain contributions by liberal groups. I'm guessing here that District Attorneys have to be voted on by the public (they are appointed by the governor here in Massachusetts)? If they do, then it would make sense why certain political groups might support one person or another. Does that have bearing on this case? Doesn't sound like it. Since again, if the DA was investigating Mr. Walker directly; what do liberal groups have to do with the case directly? I'm thinking 'more smoke and mirrors' to direct the public's attention else where from the facts and truth of things.







< Message edited by joether -- 4/2/2015 2:31:10 AM >

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/4/2015 1:53:29 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings Thread.
I agree with both Ken and Merc on this issue. Here are some other interesting cases of note.



CASES OF INTEREST

(in reply to joether)
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RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/4/2015 2:51:16 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		If lawyers are involved; smoke and mirrors are a given. The bare bones appears to be a D.A. getting a peeve on for a certain person and a certain organization and pushing the investigation past sanity when they didn't find anything.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/4/2015 3:25:56 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

If lawyers are involved; smoke and mirrors are a given. The bare bones appears to be a D.A. getting a peeve on for a certain person and a certain organization and pushing the investigation past sanity when they didn't find anything.

From what I know of it that sounds about right.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/4/2015 4:29:04 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

If lawyers are involved; smoke and mirrors are a given. The bare bones appears to be a D.A. getting a peeve on for a certain person and a certain organization and pushing the investigation past sanity when they didn't find anything.

From what I know of it that sounds about right.


This.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/5/2015 8:44:25 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

If I understand this issue, its in regards to the District Attorney, one, John T. Chisholm, whom investigated several political conservative groups between 2011-2012 OR the campaign and elected office of Scott Walker (see below on the sources). That these groups did not like being investigated, so decided to sue the D.A. in court for damages. Eric O'Keefe and the Wisconsin Club for Growth are saying that Mr. Chisholm is unfairly targeting the campaign of Gov. Scott Walker.

Further, conservative talk radio host and Republican Charlie Sykes has charged, this is “a vindictive abuse of prosecutorial discretion by partisan investigators” in which “no liberal or Democrat organizations were targeted.”

Source #1 used. Source #2 used.

I use two sources here, because this issue is HEAVILY filled with political ideaoology on both sides. Trying to find a neutral posting of information proved....not easy! Please tell me if this is the correct information?

The first question I have is: What was the District Attorney investigating exactly?

Its one thing to open an investigation over political motives (i.e. The Hillary Emails with Republican/Tea Party on the federal level). Its quite another if the person has some good details that wrong doing has actually taken place. Since that would mean that Mr. O'Keefe is using his court case as a 'smoke and mirrors' diversion to get the people in the state and perhaps at large in the nation on his side.

The talk show host that I mentioned Mr. Skyes believes the District Attorney only investigated conservative groups and not the liberal ones. He notes (from the second source) that the DA has gain contributions by liberal groups. I'm guessing here that District Attorneys have to be voted on by the public (they are appointed by the governor here in Massachusetts)? If they do, then it would make sense why certain political groups might support one person or another. Does that have bearing on this case? Doesn't sound like it. Since again, if the DA was investigating Mr. Walker directly; what do liberal groups have to do with the case directly? I'm thinking 'more smoke and mirrors' to direct the public's attention else where from the facts and truth of things.








Pretty much where your comment has problems is when you say, "From what I understand."

(in reply to joether)
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RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/6/2015 1:57:03 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA
Pretty much where your comment has problems is when you say, "From what I understand."


No, I used...FACTS. A concept you do not seem to understand. If what I'm stating is wrong, please....inform me of the facts.

You had a chance to do so, and blew it. That tells me you really don't have anything to talk about. Attack the poster not the post, right?

What I think is you got your butt handed to you on another thread. That I dropped fact after fact that annihilated your viewpoints. Butt-hurt you look for another thread and try to attack me on it. Unfortunately since I was already using facts and you didn't bring anything to the discussion except an attack on me; you still look rather foolish and dumb!


(in reply to HunterCA)
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RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/6/2015 4:15:05 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		its about retaliatory investigation by the gubmint or its agencies with regard to protected activities. in this case speech.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to joether)
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RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/6/2015 4:17:07 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/OKeefe-Cert-Petition.pdf

This is an interesting case sent to the Supreme Court. Doesn't make any difference which side you fall on, the stifling of the voice of the people is wrong.


thanks long but ver7y interesting read.

I like the way appeals pretends to dodge the bullet by claiming there is no precedence only to go outside precedence in their decision. what a racket!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/6/2015 4:21:25 PM   
FelineRanger


Posts: 658
Joined: 9/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

If lawyers are involved; smoke and mirrors are a given. The bare bones appears to be a D.A. getting a peeve on for a certain person and a certain organization and pushing the investigation past sanity when they didn't find anything.


It worked to great effect when President Clinton was investigated ad nauseum to the tune of $60 million. Since then both sides of the aisle have gone down that path. So why not lather, rinse, and repeat?

_____________________________

Bill

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/6/2015 8:06:01 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

If lawyers are involved; smoke and mirrors are a given. The bare bones appears to be a D.A. getting a peeve on for a certain person and a certain organization and pushing the investigation past sanity when they didn't find anything.


It worked to great effect when President Clinton was investigated ad nauseum to the tune of $60 million. Since then both sides of the aisle have gone down that path. So why not lather, rinse, and repeat?


doesn't make it right now does it?

(in reply to FelineRanger)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/6/2015 9:25:00 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

It worked to great effect when President Clinton was investigated ad nauseum to the tune of $60 million. Since then both sides of the aisle have gone down that path. So why not lather, rinse, and repeat?


Fr that is not what is at stake here.

This is not about gub infighting, like the clinton ordeal.

This is about the gub harrassing citizens and private parties.

quote:

The Petitioners are political activists who brought suit to enforce their First Amendment rights after they were targeted for abuse and intimidation by a rogue district attorney’s office in its long running investigation of Governor Scott Walker, his associates, and supporters of his policies. In retaliation for supporting Walker’s controversial reforms limiting collective bargaining rights for public sector workers, conservative activists across the state were subjected to home raids, everything but the kitchen sink subpoenas demanding internal communications and membership information, and other intimidation all as part of a secret investigation into conduct that a state court held isn’t even regulated by Wisconsin law. The purpose of these actions was to silence Walker’s supporters. It worked, to devastating effect.


Coming to the theater near us soon: The return of the 'brownshirts'!

Gubmint has become so corrupt and transparent.

Hey! ....and the class 1 cities are even worse!


Its presumed by people that they have a full basket of rights protected by the state, however nothing could be farther from the truth. Your rights are protected through antiquity and stare decis, (at least to the extent of what has not been destroyed by statism) If you look at this case they are trying to close a loopholes in previous scotus rulings to prevent the state from continuing to violate the rights of citizens in this manner.

The problem with rights in this country is that the operative reality is that the states will not recognize any right that they are not forced to affirmatively recognize by a supreme court gun pointed at their pocket books, and even then they will still violate them if considered important enough (money; if the payoff is greater than payout) and try to win those cases through legalese wrangling and word manipulation in favor of the state. Not the 'people' who are member stockholders within said boundaries! This is all calculated and works to accomplish their mission(s) during the long delay period between the committed act and the sometimes years before it can be processed through the courts. Any wonder there is are so many new anarchists created every day?




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/6/2015 9:49:53 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to FelineRanger)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/6/2015 11:40:29 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

It worked to great effect when President Clinton was investigated ad nauseum to the tune of $60 million. Since then both sides of the aisle have gone down that path. So why not lather, rinse, and repeat?


Fr that is not what is at stake here.

This is not about gub infighting, like the clinton ordeal.

This is about the gub harrassing citizens and private parties.


No, this is a case were both sides a guilty of a pile of problems. No one here seems to be able to answer my question from above, so I'll ask it again:

What was the District Attorney investigating exactly?

For some reason the DA was investigating groups for wrong doing. They didnt like being investigated, so they sued the DA. If you had actually broken the law and knew it, would you just wrong up the wagons ad wait for the legal battle? Or spring on the offense and force the law on the defense? That's what happened here. If these people are guilty, why are you siding with them against the government? Likewise, if they are innocent, why bring suit in the first place?

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/7/2015 12:25:35 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

It worked to great effect when President Clinton was investigated ad nauseum to the tune of $60 million. Since then both sides of the aisle have gone down that path. So why not lather, rinse, and repeat?


Fr that is not what is at stake here.

This is not about gub infighting, like the clinton ordeal.

This is about the gub harrassing citizens and private parties.


No, this is a case were both sides a guilty of a pile of problems. No one here seems to be able to answer my question from above, so I'll ask it again:

What was the District Attorney investigating exactly?

For some reason the DA was investigating groups for wrong doing. They didnt like being investigated, so they sued the DA. If you had actually broken the law and knew it, would you just wrong up the wagons ad wait for the legal battle? Or spring on the offense and force the law on the defense? That's what happened here. If these people are guilty, why are you siding with them against the government? Likewise, if they are innocent, why bring suit in the first place?


What was the District Attorney investigating exactly?
The problem you have though is that if you dont understand the above,
you cant conclude this:
For some reason the DA was investigating groups for wrong doing.
or this:
They didnt like being investigated, so they sued the DA.


I suggest you take the time to read the link Ken posted: Kens link here

Then when you can answer your first question it may make more sense to you.

Which people do you think are guilty of what and why do you think the gubmint is innocent?






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/7/2015 1:06:35 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		A DA does not have to prove a crime to investigate. I'll give an example. The crime of being treasonous. If one speaks out against the government, then one can be suspect of treason. It also takes an act to prove it. Hence, the investigation to go about proving one's guilt. Conversely, if one speaks out in favor of an unconstitutional act by government, then one could be considered treasonous for their support of taking over the rights of others.

I believe that the methodology used in the investigation is at question.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/7/2015 2:17:32 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		I wont argue with 90% of what you said.
Broadly that is true, however the DA must be able to show the court he has 'probable cause' and that the subpoena will reasonably lead to inculpatory evidence.

The 'theory' is that he cant just claim someone speaking out against the government is suspected of treason with no reasonable grounds. The court hears the reason for the subpoena but does not inspect the contents of the subpoena's the DA would issue.

Now if the situation were reversed and the subpoena was against the DA the contents would be reviewed by an administrative law judge as a matter of course, however, suffice to say we the people, in our 2 tier legal system do not have the same special benefits and levels of protection that "we the benevolent good guy government" does.

The way I see it the plaintiff has claims both in equity as well as law, the DA should have been sanctioned, fined and lost his bar card, which is the courts responsibility to enforce except they 'rarely' do except under the most egregious circumstances and never with regard to our heavenly officials. Even is the SC rules against the DA, dont forget its a class 1 city and I assure you criminal charges will not be filed, there will be no sanctions, and life will continue in the good ole boy fashion it always has. LOL



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/7/2015 7:41:47 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		I agree but probable cause can be created by a one time use e-mail from a person unknown on an account created at starbucks as the home account holder and misconstrued facebook posts. Not all that hard.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Stifling the voice of concerned citizens - 5/7/2015 9:34:56 AM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.nationalreview.com/article/417155/wisconsins-shame-i-thought-it-was-home-invasion-david-french


Here you are joether.

< Message edited by HunterCA -- 5/7/2015 9:36:58 AM >

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 20
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