RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (Full Version)

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wannapleez -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/18/2015 11:42:55 PM)

Emphasis mine

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
You are exactly right, which is why "forced" usually gets quotation marks. There's nothing "forced" about any of this, it's all consensual. The same with "forced" bi. Dude is bicurious or bisexual and doesn't want to own it. [8|] k.

DreamLady


This seems to imply an existing inclination or predilection for a given activity. I would have to disagree. A true sub establishes hard limits (which the Domme respects) and then hands the keys over to the Domme. His total surrender is consensual, but individual activities are not, necessarily. I'd have left the lifestyle years ago out of sheer boredom if that was the case.

It also skirts on a low, almost derisive view, of the sub ("doesn't want to own it").



NookieNotes -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/19/2015 5:45:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wannapleez

Emphasis mine

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
You are exactly right, which is why "forced" usually gets quotation marks. There's nothing "forced" about any of this, it's all consensual. The same with "forced" bi. Dude is bicurious or bisexual and doesn't want to own it. [8|] k.

DreamLady


This seems to imply an existing inclination or predilection for a given activity. I would have to disagree. A true sub establishes hard limits (which the Domme respects) and then hands the keys over to the Domme. His total surrender is consensual, but individual activities are not, necessarily. I'd have left the lifestyle years ago out of sheer boredom if that was the case.

It also skirts on a low, almost derisive view, of the sub ("doesn't want to own it").


It's not a low, derisive view of the sub, as in subs in general, it's a low, derisive view of subs who write to women asking over and over for "forced" fem or bi, while refusing to claim that they want it.

That is different from the scenario you are suggesting, where a relationship is created, then she does what she wants, and he goes along because he's given her the keys. It's still not forced (because, consent, ya'll), but he's also not begging to be forced.



patpitt -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/19/2015 7:40:49 AM)

as a very new sub I will say that I want to be forced . if that makes sense . But it would happen when a level of imence trust was there . I think after a intial feming iwould become more and more comfortable . but I may have to fool myself at first .



NookieNotes -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/19/2015 8:23:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: patpitt

as a very new sub I will say that I want to be forced . if that makes sense . But it would happen when a level of imence trust was there . I think after a intial feming iwould become more and more comfortable . but I may have to fool myself at first .


To me, I will say this is a hard limit for me. It's one thing to say you want to be encouraged, and supported and protected, even pushed. But forced?

That smacks of either not knowing what you want, or not being willing to accept it in yourself, to me.



patpitt -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/19/2015 8:29:46 AM)

oh you are correct but it took 49 years to just start my journey . it may take a woman with understanding to help me really embrace that part of me. but hey that's me and my stuff everyone is differnt



NookieNotes -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/19/2015 8:46:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: patpitt

oh you are correct but it took 49 years to just start my journey . it may take a woman with understanding to help me really embrace that part of me. but hey that's me and my stuff everyone is differnt


You are you.

Look at it this way, maybe I do understand, and realize that you may have started your journey, but are not yet ready to fully embrace it, until you take responsibility for your actual desires.

This is my opinion, although I've heard similar from many other dominant women. Your mileage may vary.



patpitt -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/19/2015 9:24:46 AM)

I think we are not far apart . for me it is all about finding the one I learn to trust to the point of being able to tell her my desires. but I think that part of the appeal and attraction to being dominated is the illusion of no choice. like I said very new to this but the one thing I hear over and over is communication. so I would stammer through and be uncomfortable during that first conversation . I would hope that I chose wisely enough that the woman I hope to meet would push me to express myself but still allow me the fantasy
. hey I think if both enjoy playing it that way then have fun . I think I may have given the impression that I would not want to have that talk. on the contrary I look forward to it. but I will almost certainly need a nudge to start . the being forced part or talked into is just part of the fantasy, I think just rambled on a bit but I am new to chat on line to



Gauge -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/19/2015 9:47:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: patpitt

I think we are not far apart . for me it is all about finding the one I learn to trust to the point of being able to tell her my desires. but I think that part of the appeal and attraction to being dominated is the illusion of no choice. like I said very new to this but the one thing I hear over and over is communication. so I would stammer through and be uncomfortable during that first conversation . I would hope that I chose wisely enough that the woman I hope to meet would push me to express myself but still allow me the fantasy
. hey I think if both enjoy playing it that way then have fun . I think I may have given the impression that I would not want to have that talk. on the contrary I look forward to it. but I will almost certainly need a nudge to start . the being forced part or talked into is just part of the fantasy, I think just rambled on a bit but I am new to chat on line to


Communication is very important.

The key to all of this for you, if it took you 49 years to get to this point, you are an adult... and so is the person that you are looking for, therefore forget the embarrassment and the uncomfortable feelings and just talk plainly... like adults.

You, like many other new folks, have got to figure out what it is you want. Not that you will know everything you want at first, but you need a direction to head towards, find it and go there.

Let's make no bones about all of this, you always have a choice, always, regardless of the amorphous fantasy illusion of no choice. Consent exists, if it does not within the context of your relationship, it is dodgy at best, criminal at worst. You are an adult human, you are not a remote control airplane with no ability to rationalize or choose what it is you want to allow yourself to be subjected to. Let's just say that you have a bad back and that you are going to be forced into suspension bondage that could well paralyze you... you know this, but your dominant insists that that is what they want to do to you. What are you going to do? Risk being paralyzed? If you are rational, of course you will not risk it, and therefore you have a choice.

Define your current desires, and define what you seek, and then go find someone that is compatible with you.




NookieNotes -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/19/2015 12:11:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Communication is very important.

The key to all of this for you, if it took you 49 years to get to this point, you are an adult... and so is the person that you are looking for, therefore forget the embarrassment and the uncomfortable feelings and just talk plainly... like adults.


This.



dreamlady -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/19/2015 10:46:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
quote:

ORIGINAL: wannapleez

This seems to imply an existing inclination or predilection for a given activity. I would have to disagree. A true sub establishes hard limits (which the Domme respects) and then hands the keys over to the Domme. His total surrender is consensual, but individual activities are not, necessarily. I'd have left the lifestyle years ago out of sheer boredom if that was the case.

It also skirts on a low, almost derisive view, of the sub ("doesn't want to own it").

It's not a low, derisive view of the sub, as in subs in general, it's a low, derisive view of subs who write to women asking over and over for "forced" fem or bi, while refusing to claim that they want it.

That is different from the scenario you are suggesting, where a relationship is created, then she does what she wants, and he goes along because he's given her the keys. It's still not forced (because, consent, ya'll), but he's also not begging to be forced.

OP, I didn't mean for your thread to go in this direction, so let me explain.

NookieNotes is correct about there being the type of (male) submissive who doesn't want to own his own desires, and hides behind the *standard* "whatever the Domme wants me to do." This sentiment is disingenuous when it involves a sub's hidden desire to do exactly what he is professing he is willing to do for her sake.
It's a form of self-deception, bordering on manipulation. To cut to the chase, it's a load of b.s. in those instances. There are Dommes who will play this silly, little game (which is how I see it), but there are others for whom this type of CNC dynamic is a Hard Limit.

You seem to have taken my comments personally, but I would like for you to view them in the light of my aversion to any "forced" activity, not as a reflection on questioning any given sub's masculinity or heterosexuality for playing panty-wearing games with his Mistress.

It doesn't have to apply to a sub. There are male switches who want to be "forced" to do what they really want to do. The problem I have with this, beyond the scope of fun & games, has to do with a couple being real with one another.

I'll give you a specific example. There are subs and switches who want to be "forced" to have sex with their Domme for whatever reason. It is often wrapped in a humiliation package where both are being sexually objectified by one another.
There isn't a man on this planet that I will ever need or want to be "forced" into a sexual performance. Never. As in Not Ever. I find the very thought absurdly offensive.

While a sub or switch may get off on having sex demanded of him because it makes him feel sexually objectified as a boytoy or a sex slave, or wants to get treated like a bitch whose submission has to be "forced" out of him, that's his thing, not mine.

To put it another way, I refuse to be sexually objectified into sexually objectifying my partner. I don't need to bitch-slap a man to "order" him to do what he should be begging me for the privilege of doing out of eagerness and all-consuming passion for me. I don't need a man to act like a wet rag or an unwilling participant in seeking to please me. Wtf. Any vanilla lover would bring me more pleasure by acting like an ardent lover should by making me feel like the most desirable woman he's ever known.

A man's submission comes enthusiastically and wholeheartedly, or else I don't want it.

DreamLady



wannapleez -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/20/2015 12:43:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
You seem to have taken my comments personally, but I would like for you to view them in the light of my aversion to any "forced" activity, not as a reflection on questioning any given sub's masculinity or heterosexuality for playing panty-wearing games with his Mistress.


Personally, no. But it's difficult to even consider that this might be an issue that needs to be examined in "light of [your] aversion" when you say nothing about your personal tastes but simply make a universal declaration like, "There's nothing 'forced' about any of this, it's all consensual."



wannapleez -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/20/2015 12:49:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes


quote:

ORIGINAL: wannapleez

Emphasis mine

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
You are exactly right, which is why "forced" usually gets quotation marks. There's nothing "forced" about any of this, it's all consensual. The same with "forced" bi. Dude is bicurious or bisexual and doesn't want to own it. [8|] k.

DreamLady


This seems to imply an existing inclination or predilection for a given activity. I would have to disagree. A true sub establishes hard limits (which the Domme respects) and then hands the keys over to the Domme. His total surrender is consensual, but individual activities are not, necessarily. I'd have left the lifestyle years ago out of sheer boredom if that was the case.

It also skirts on a low, almost derisive view, of the sub ("doesn't want to own it").


It's not a low, derisive view of the sub, as in subs in general, it's a low, derisive view of subs who write to women asking over and over for "forced" fem or bi, while refusing to claim that they want it.

That is different from the scenario you are suggesting, where a relationship is created, then she does what she wants, and he goes along because he's given her the keys. It's still not forced (because, consent, ya'll), but he's also not begging to be forced.


I understand, and completely agree with, your distinction. The derision of which you speak is (essentially) for subs that top from the bottom.

But said distinction was not raised prior to your comment. Only a universal declaration was made. And universal declarations (other than "No means no") -- particularly in sexual topics -- are beyond silly.



JVoV -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/20/2015 1:17:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes


quote:

ORIGINAL: patpitt

as a very new sub I will say that I want to be forced . if that makes sense . But it would happen when a level of imence trust was there . I think after a intial feming iwould become more and more comfortable . but I may have to fool myself at first .


To me, I will say this is a hard limit for me. It's one thing to say you want to be encouraged, and supported and protected, even pushed. But forced?

That smacks of either not knowing what you want, or not being willing to accept it in yourself, to me.


I see it as more not wanting responsibility for it. They can go into it knowing that they aren't a dirty freak because their Dominant "made them do it". It can be a necessary part of reaching the right headspace for some subs.



NookieNotes -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/20/2015 3:48:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wannapleez
I understand, and completely agree with, your distinction. The derision of which you speak is (essentially) for subs that top from the bottom.

But said distinction was not raised prior to your comment. Only a universal declaration was made. And universal declarations (other than "No means no") -- particularly in sexual topics -- are beyond silly.


*nods*


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes


quote:

ORIGINAL: patpitt

as a very new sub I will say that I want to be forced . if that makes sense . But it would happen when a level of imence trust was there . I think after a intial feming iwould become more and more comfortable . but I may have to fool myself at first .


To me, I will say this is a hard limit for me. It's one thing to say you want to be encouraged, and supported and protected, even pushed. But forced?

That smacks of either not knowing what you want, or not being willing to accept it in yourself, to me.


I see it as more not wanting responsibility for it. They can go into it knowing that they aren't a dirty freak because their Dominant "made them do it". It can be a necessary part of reaching the right headspace for some subs.


I think I meant that, when I said, "not being willing to accept it in yourself."

I understand it is a "thing" for many subs, however, FOR ME, those will never be the right subs. I have no interest in that kind of abdication of personal responsibility.

As dreamlady said,

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
A man's submission comes enthusiastically and wholeheartedly, or else I don't want it.



dreamlady -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/20/2015 7:00:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wannapleez
quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
You seem to have taken my comments personally, but I would like for you to view them in the light of my aversion to any "forced" activity, not as a reflection on questioning any given sub's masculinity or heterosexuality for playing panty-wearing games with his Mistress.

Personally, no. But it's difficult to even consider that this might be an issue that needs to be examined in "light of [your] aversion" when you say nothing about your personal tastes but simply make a universal declaration like, "There's nothing 'forced' about any of this, it's all consensual."

Then you tell me what part of "forced" feminization is being forced in actuality without a sub's consent? Because if this is the case, then there are bigger issues at stake than whether Dommes get into or don't get into androgeny with their male subs. Without consent, implicit or otherwise, this is not BDSM insofar as (non-vanilla) D/s protocols go. AKA your typical vanilla-style bullying or abusive behavior toward others. If fully informed consent is not a "universal" principle, then there is no bulwark to protect one's privacy from the long arm of the law in WIITWD.

I'm calling bullshit, and my personal predilections have absolutely nothing to do with it. Besides, I think it was pretty obvious that I was speaking from my own point of view in reply to JVoV's observation, as excerpted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

I don't think it's forced feminization if the sub is already inclined. I'd say the same for 'forced bisexuality'.

But subs need their Dominants to take control of their desires and kinks, in order to be ok with wanting these things, and to be free of having to make the decision.

Willingness to engage in either of these "forced" activities is always a red flag to me, since that isn't the type of partner I seek.

This isn't my first rodeo, nor is it JVoV's because it is from our (if I may be inclusive here) domination experiences with submissives that we can knowingly share the same sentiment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

I see it as more not wanting responsibility for it. They can go into it knowing that they aren't a dirty freak because their Dominant "made them do it". It can be a necessary part of reaching the right headspace for some subs.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't bring this up OP, but you just started another thread about how you are Dom to a female sub but don't consider yourself a switch. Whether you still think of yourself as a submissive or switch is irrelevant to me. What I do find troubling is for you to fill the role of a Dominant and not have a good grasp on where the dividing lines are when it comes to consent, CNC "forced" play, and withdrawal of consent, not just for the sake of any submissive you have, but in order to protect yourself as a Dominant from personal liability.

DreamLady



Marini -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/21/2015 7:37:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

Can we make 'forced masculization' a kink?


[sm=mademyday.gif]

You can come sit by me, we are eye to eye on this.
I find anyone looking to be forced into consensual activities, as a bit boring on here: Looking/begging for "forced femme", "forced bi", "forced baby", "forced sissy", "forced into logging onto CollarSpace and begging to be forced into shit that I want to do", etc.
where the hell are the MEN that want to be forced to be MEN.
Kiss for ya babe



Marini -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/21/2015 7:42:06 PM)

Dreamlady, why don't we start a new kink, called "forced straight" and "forced to dress like men"?

no takers for that, eh?
[sm=hardlimit.gif]

back to forced bi.
PLENTY of takers for that one.




VeryMercurial -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/21/2015 7:55:20 PM)

nm



Marini -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/21/2015 8:04:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

Can we make 'forced masculization' a kink?


[sm=mademyday.gif]

You can come sit by me, we seem to agree here.

I find anyone looking to be forced into consensual activities, as a bit boring on here: Looking/begging for "forced femme", "forced bi", "forced baby", "forced sissy", "forced into logging onto CollarSpace and begging to be forced into shit that I want to do", etc.
where the hell are the MEN that want to be forced to be MEN.
Kiss for ya babe



As a gay man, do you run across a plethora of submissives begging to be forced straight?
Begging you to MAKE them be with a woman?



dreamlady -> RE: for Mistresses into forced fem (4/21/2015 8:51:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Dreamlady, why don't we start a new kink, called "forced straight" and "forced to dress like men"?

no takers for that, eh?
[sm=hardlimit.gif]

back to forced bi.
PLENTY of takers for that one.

More like "forced to act like a grown-ass man." [8|]

Then (some) submissive men want to know why they aren't treated with more respect in general by others in this lifestyle. Hmm, "forced" to hand over their "do-me fetish/kink list" and longwinded, excruciatingly detailed fantasy script?

They can't have it both ways, craving constant humiliation and degradation by being treated as less than, and then get taken seriously for their lip service-only *submission* (no pun intended). You know, the kind who treat Dommes like their dirty little shameful secret, since we're not "real" women in their minds deserving of standard vanilla dating protocol.
If I wanted some middle-aged dude with a bunch of sexual hang-ups following him around like that cloud of dust of Pigpen's in the Peanuts comic strip, any 'nilla man would do. In fact, the 'nilla would be able to get it up without requiring an entire fetish/kink production scene set up for his benefit.

Not all, thank goodness, I'm sure you will agree. Just a vast sea of those squirmy little toads in overabundance.

Marini, I'm too rushed to send you a PM, but on a vanilla dating site, I think I stumbled across a diamond in the rough a couple weeks ago in my inbox who isn't going to need to be deprogrammed first! A submissive man who hasn't been ruined yet -- which is quite rare in my experience. He's making me feel very, very wicked. [;)]

DreamLady



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