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In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 12:34:37 AM

DommeinRochester

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So who wins? I happen to see this article. It's not denying someone something based on religious beliefs, it's demanding others accommodate their beliefs without regard to what the consequences may be'

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/10/us/aboard-flights-confliscts-over-seat-assignments-and-religion.html?WT.mc_id=2015-APRIL-AOL-EMAILED_AUD_DEV-0401-0430&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=AUDDEVAPRIL&ncid=webmail9&_r=0

As for the situation in the article> While highly doubtful I would be asked to change my seat, sure I'd move...right on up to 1st class on his dime.

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 12:42:26 AM

JVoV

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Fix the link?

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 2:34:07 AM

slvemike4u

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I'm just rolling over in the middle of the night,doubt I could fix his link anyway.
What I could do,probably,if I wasn't going back to sleep is find the original story.
I read the Times,and unless I'm mistaken this is an article that reports on the incidences wherein ultra orthodox Hasidim Jews delay flights while seating arrangements are sorted out.
The sticking point is sitting next to,and risking accidentally,touching woman who are not their wives.
Seems more that one flight has been delayed significant periods while this gets straightened out.....especially on flights between New York and Tel Aviv.
Seeing as the Hasidim are flying often these days and the air lines are loathe to offend and possibly lose their business,so they bend over backwards to accommodate.
The article ran sat or friday if I recall.....back to sleep.Enjoy..

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 4:11:32 AM

PeonForHer

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FR

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/10/us/aboard-flights-conflicts-over-seat-assignments-and-religion.html?WT.mc_id=2015-APRIL-AOL-EMAILED_AUD_DEV-0401-0430&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=AUDDEVAPRIL&ncid=webmail9&_r=0

An extra 's' in the word 'conflicts' was the culprit.

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 4:36:19 AM

DaddySatyr

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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/10/us/aboard-flights-conflicts-over-seat-assignments-and-religion.html?WT.mc_id=2015-APRIL-AOL-EMAILED_AUD_DEV-0401-0430&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=AUDDEVAPRIL&ncid=webmail9&_r=0

Link fixed.

I had a similar situation (which I think I've written about before, here) in a movie theater. It was one of the Star Trek films, opening day. The theater had that stadium seating so seats down front were useless.

My son and I got their 45 minutes early to get prime seating, right in the middle. The theater filled up. There was an empty seat next to my son.

The previews are running and a family of three shows up with an usher, the latter asking me and my son to move. he motioned me to the aisle end of the seats. I told him to go pound salt.

Next came the manager with the lady of the family talking loudly about how unreasonable I was being. How "black people shouldn't have to miss a movie because of ignorant white people". The manager told me if I didn't move, he would call the police.

I sent my son (I think he was 11 or 12) out to the car and verbally laced into the manager. I informed him that I wasn't all white and that this was going to make the news papers (I worked for one). The manager handed me 20 free passes and I told him that nothing he did was going to stop the onslaught of bad press he was about to get.

Regal movie theaters reached out to me and tried to placate me with more free movie passes. Unbeknownst to me, they also reached out to my editorial board. Scratch one job in the situation, also (I wasn't fired. I quit, refusing to work for pussies).

I'm not much of a movie-goer anymore, anyway because of the bullshit smoking rules but I have NEVER been to a Regal theater, these last fifteen or sixteen years (The movie was Star Trek TNG: First Contact).

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 4/13/2015 4:37:03 AM >

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 6:29:25 AM

tweakabelle

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It appears that Arabs are not the only inhabitants of the Middle East whose attitudes towards women verge on the Neanderthal.

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 6:40:18 AM

Aylee

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Here is a crazy idea . . .

Orthodox Jews have the freedom to ask others to move. . .

and. . .

Others have the freedom to say, "No, I won't."

Win-Win!

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 7:00:03 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Here is a crazy idea . . .

Orthodox Jews have the freedom to ask others to move. . .

and. . .

Others have the freedom to say, "No, I won't."

Win-Win!

But...but...but...that would SURELY be due to hatred against Jews. And therefore offensive. And they might hurt the Jew's feelings. Awwwww...

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 7:23:34 AM

bounty44

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you would think that the ultra orthodox jews would somehow deal with this ahead of time when they are booking their flights. I realize seating isn't always going to be full they make their arrangements, but it seems easy to ask, and probably with high success rates too, "can you please seat me next to a male?"

its got little, if not nothing to do with "Neanderthal" attitudes towards women, it has to do with psychological fidelity towards their wives. I suspect there's a majority of women who would enjoy hearing from their husbands when it comes to other women "I only have thoughts of you." not sitting next to another woman for what would be a significant length of time is a way to help ensure that.

the tension between the worldviews is captured nicely at the end of the article.

“My buddy who is Orthodox was saying this is a traditional thing — he doesn’t want to be tempted when his wife wasn’t there. And I said, ‘Are you kidding?’ This was just some woman flying to work or home and minding her own business.”

ive never liked the answer men who are spoken for give when they are caught looking at other women "just because im on a diet doesn't mean I cannot look at the menu." in a restaurant, looking at the menu is the first step in ordering what's on it. the premise would be keeping the menu closed means you are less likely to order something from it. again I suspect the guy's mate in this instance would appreciate that.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 4/13/2015 7:26:30 AM >

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 8:12:09 AM

Lucylastic

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Wouldnt the discourse be a bit different had it been imams....
Not that im cynical or anything....

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 8:57:26 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

Fix the link?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/10/us/aboard-flights-conflicts-over-seat-assignments-and-religion.html

K.

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 9:02:04 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Wouldnt the discourse be a bit different had it been imams....
Not that im cynical or anything....

Like this?
uote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Here is a crazy idea . . .

Muslim Imams have the freedom to ask others to move. . .

and. . .

Others have the freedom to say, "No, I won't."

Win-Win!

CreativeDominant

But...but...but...that would SURELY be due to hatred against Muslims. And therefore offensive. And they might hurt the Imam's feelings.

Awwwww...

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 9:11:33 AM

Lucylastic

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LMFAO
you just made my point:) thank you
shakingmy head
it could have been right wing evangelicals, demanding their religious "beliefs" protects them from having to deal with the evil of women/gays any other morally repugnant group or individual.
Thankyou so much
six of one and half a dozen of the other.

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 9:28:51 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DommeinRochester

So who wins?

I think this issue raises some interesting First Amendment questions. I have never been sanguine, for example, about the courts having extended the definition of speech to include behavior. The Constitution doesn't say anything about "symbolic" speech, and should not be made to say it. The same problem arises with regard to religious expression. We are seeing laws that extend the definition of expression to include conduct. In my opinion, free expression claims made in behalf of people conducting themselves in ways that violate civil law should not be entertained. To take one of the examples from the article, people delaying the departure of an aircraft by standing in the aisles and refusing to move until their religious requirements are met should be politely arrested and removed from the cabin.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/13/2015 9:45:45 AM >

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 9:56:24 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

LMFAO
you just made my point:) thank you
shakingmy head
it could have been right wing evangelicals, demanding their religious "beliefs" protects them from having to deal with the evil of women/gays any other morally repugnant group or individual.
Thankyou so much
six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Seriously?

Gay couple has the freedom to request a wedding cake, Evangelical Christian has the freedom to say, "No, I won't."

Aylee: Negating lawsuits one sane idea at a time.

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 10:21:34 AM

smileforme50

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I think if these people are so hell bent on following their religion....which they have the right to....then they should be the ones who jump through some extra hoops to do it....not anyone else on the plane. Meaning: If you absolutely insist on not sitting next to any women, then you need to buy yourself a window seat AND the seat next to it to ensure that it will be vacant and not occupied by a woman.

If YOU don't want to sit next to a particular kind of person, it is YOUR responsibility to see that it doesn't happen.

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 10:26:32 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

LMFAO
you just made my point:) thank you
shakingmy head
it could have been right wing evangelicals, demanding their religious "beliefs" protects them from having to deal with the evil of women/gays any other morally repugnant group or individual.
Thankyou so much
six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Or... it could have been LGBT individuals asking others to move (because they have a right to 'group'amongst themselves so they're with people that understand and accept them)...

And...other individuals could have said no.

Win-win...

But...but...but...that would SURELY be due to hatred against LGBT individuals. And therefore offensive. And they might hurt the LGBT individual's feelings.

Awwwww...

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 10:32:22 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

I think if these people are so hell bent on following their religion....which they have the right to....then they should be the ones who jump through some extra hoops to do it....not anyone else on the plane. Meaning: If you absolutely insist on not sitting next to any women, then you need to buy yourself a window seat AND the seat next to it to ensure that it will be vacant and not occupied by a woman.

If YOU don't want to sit next to a particular kind of person, it is YOUR responsibility to see that it doesn't happen.

Yes. Absolutely. If someone insists on imposing their Neanderthal attitudes on the rest of us, then the obligation to arrange matters so that there is no inconvenience to others is entirely theirs. It doesn't matter what religion or ideology compels this behaviour, the costs and other inconveniences necessitated by their primitive views is their responsibility and theirs alone

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 10:39:57 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

I think if these people are so hell bent on following their religion....which they have the right to....then they should be the ones who jump through some extra hoops to do it....not anyone else on the plane. Meaning: If you absolutely insist on not sitting next to any women, then you need to buy yourself a window seat AND the seat next to it to ensure that it will be vacant and not occupied by a woman.

If YOU don't want to sit next to a particular kind of person, it is YOUR responsibility to see that it doesn't happen.

Yes. Absolutely. If someone insists on imposing their Neanderthal attitudes on the rest of us, then the obligation to arrange matters so that there is no inconvenience to others is entirely theirs. It doesn't matter what religion or ideology compels this behaviour, the costs and other inconveniences necessitated by their primitive views is their responsibility and theirs alone

Ya just gotta love the flaming rage nozzles of tolerance!

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RE: In case of a tie, who should win? - 4/13/2015 10:46:23 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

I think if these people are so hell bent on following their religion....which they have the right to....then they should be the ones who jump through some extra hoops to do it....not anyone else on the plane. Meaning: If you absolutely insist on not sitting next to any women, then you need to buy yourself a window seat AND the seat next to it to ensure that it will be vacant and not occupied by a woman.

If YOU don't want to sit next to a particular kind of person, it is YOUR responsibility to see that it doesn't happen.

Yes. Absolutely. If someone insists on imposing their Neanderthal attitudes on the rest of us, then the obligation to arrange matters so that there is no inconvenience to others is entirely theirs. It doesn't matter what religion or ideology compels this behaviour, the costs and other inconveniences necessitated by their primitive views is their responsibility and theirs alone

Ya just gotta love the flaming rage nozzles of tolerance!

You will have to explain to me how my attitude is "intolerant". I didn't say that people shouldn't be allowed to follow the tenets of their religion. I did say the the obligation is upon them to meet any costs that arise when those tenets inconvenience others.

People are free to behave like Neanderthals if they please (and it's legal). I am free to describe their behaviour as Neanderthal if I please, and the description is accurate as it is in this instance.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/13/2015 10:48:53 AM >

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