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Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/14/2015 3:31:02 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		I'm sure I remember a time when it was considered that the finest thing an adult could was produce children. Children, the story went, turned into adults, and adults were worth any number of new buildings, machines, or any other things that currently fall into the category of 'investment'. Up until the 1970s, for sure, they were an 'investment' - and governments were quite happy to register this fact as they took your 'investment into society' and - if he was male, at least - compulsorily drafted him to fight in WW1, WW2, or any of the other many conflicts thereafter.

At what point, and why, and how, did this all turn around? Is having children an 'indulgence' by the parents, these days - one that's only ever a drain on society and can't conceivably 'add' to society - therefore, something that society should never pay for?

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/14/2015 3:35:58 PM   
ExiledTyrant


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Status: offline 		Vewy, vewy subjective gwasshopper... for me it is neither. I love raising miniature people more than anything and I focus very hard on turning miniature people into very viable big people.

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/14/2015 3:37:50 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		I think it is right parents can have as many children as they can afford. I am all for having welfare for those that need it but some parents keep knocking out kids and expect the state to pay for them.

As for education, the state should pay for it. In the long run a well educated populace can only be good for the Country.

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/14/2015 3:52:46 PM   
DaNewAgeViking


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Status: offline 		What peon refers to is the theory - current even today - that citizens are the property of the state and must 'do their duty' by military service, being productive drones, etc. The shift in that perception has come about by the growing disenfranchisement of We The People and the rising concern for overpopulation. Having children is no longer a 'duty', nor is it inevitable due to birth control, nor desirable due to economic and environmental matters. So the decision by individuals to have children has very much become a 'luxury'. As for 'paying for it', as he whines, there is also the duty of the state to its people. An uneducated child is a burden on society, and since the fundamental concept of civilization is to band together for the common good, then an adequate education is as much of a 'right' and a 'social necessity' as are law enforcement, national defense, public health, etc.

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/14/2015 4:01:52 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

What peon refers to is the theory - current even today - that citizens are the property of the state and must 'do their duty' by military service, being productive drones, etc.


Jesus, no, DNAK. The 'responsibility of the state - and society', but *not* the 'property'. I don't see children as the 'property' of anyone at all, even their parents. But I do see them as this current society's investment in tomorrow's society, if that makes sense.

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/14/2015 4:14:35 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		None of which detracts from my reply.

Back in Victorian times families in big cities had many kids, as the infant mortality rate was so high a large family was needed to ensure offspring. Even the Victorians had started to see that educating the masses was god for the national economy. Peon was wrong about conscription as well. It wasnt introduced until 1916, two years after the start of WWI, fell into disuse from 1920 until 1939 and was phased out between 1957 and 1960. So there never was a time when having a child was seen as an investment for the State, even if the establisment felt it was desirable.

The difference between then and now is it was rare to have so many broken homes, where fathers often fail to cover the cost of raising a child.

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/14/2015 4:19:36 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		It makes perfect sense to invest in Education for what will become the backbone of Society peon. My fear is constant changes to the Education System by either the left or the right, for idealogical reasons ends up being counterproductive. All children should be helped and brighter children helped even more, not just those that can pay the cost sending kids to the so called top schools. Some politicians that have been educated at said schools dont seem overly bright to me.

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/14/2015 4:36:57 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Peon was wrong about conscription as well. It wasnt introduced until 1916, two years after the start of WWI, fell into disuse from 1920 until 1939 and was phased out between 1957 and 1960. So there never was a time when having a child was seen as an investment for the State, even if the establisment felt it was desirable.



Eh? We all knew it took a couple of years before boys began to be conscripted after the beginning of WW1. And the governments of both then and the late 30s seemed pretty grateful that the parents had invested in children that could be packed off for war. (Myself, I might have been inclined to think about the powers that be, 'You've spent years telling my parents that they're indulgent slobs and that I'm parasitical scum - why don't you go and fight the war that *you* started anyway, you nasty, selfish old fuckers?'

The truth, to me, is that there's *always* been a contradictory message from the state, because the state gets the best of both worlds that way. It wants kids to be brought up and paid for by the parents, to be used later for whatever purpose it requires - factory-fodder and tax-payers - or to fight for the state come time of war. But it would rather not pay for the upbringing of said kids. *That*, it must be absolutely maintained, is the *parents' responsibility.

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/14/2015 4:44:07 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

It makes perfect sense to invest in Education for what will become the backbone of Society peon. My fear is constant changes to the Education System by either the left or the right, for idealogical reasons ends up being counterproductive. All children should be helped and brighter children helped even more, not just those that can pay the cost sending kids to the so called top schools. Some politicians that have been educated at said schools dont seem overly bright to me.



Governments will *always* piss around with education systems because those systems, and the people who work in them, are easy targets and easy scapegoats. Governments can't blame parents if kids turn into bad adults, because parents vote for or against governments in elections. You can bash a minority of parents at the bottom - but it can only ever be a small minority of parents. At the same time, there's a long-standing belief that anyone - any parent, any government minister - "knows" how "education should be done" ... in a way that neither has ever "known" how medicine, the law, or even policing, "should be done". This is why you get one frigging fart of an education minister after another making radical changes that fuck up the entire education system, over and over again.

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/14/2015 5:48:49 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Vewy, vewy subjective gwasshopper... for me it is neither. I love raising miniature people more than anything and I focus very hard on turning miniature people into very viable big people.

This.

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/15/2015 12:40:19 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

At what point, and why, and how, did this all turn around? Is having children an 'indulgence' by the parents, these days - one that's only ever a drain on society and can't conceivably 'add' to society - therefore, something that society should never pay for?


The standard of living for larger families can be a lot tougher because its the parents who foot the bill and invest in that child's potential future. The economy relies on the parents investment for its future prosperity.

We don't live in a static economy, we live in a dynamic one and so unlike Africa where the citizens can only divide what they already have, we live in a buoyant one that generates more wealth per person (the average person will make more money for their country than take from it) and so in the West, healthy birth rates are good for the economy.



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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/15/2015 9:40:23 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I'm sure I remember a time when it was considered that the finest thing an adult could was produce children. Children, the story went, turned into adults, and adults were worth any number of new buildings, machines, or any other things that currently fall into the category of 'investment'. Up until the 1970s, for sure, they were an 'investment' - and governments were quite happy to register this fact as they took your 'investment into society' and - if he was male, at least - compulsorily drafted him to fight in WW1, WW2, or any of the other many conflicts thereafter.

At what point, and why, and how, did this all turn around? Is having children an 'indulgence' by the parents, these days - one that's only ever a drain on society and can't conceivably 'add' to society - therefore, something that society should never pay for?

I think it depends on what country you live and your children live.. Some American draft dodgers came to Canada to avoid fighting.. While the US doesn't have the draft today, that doesn't mean that if it required more military it wouldn't bring it back..

I think that if a country doesn't produce enough children then you need immigration to make up the income base to support the safety net such as taxes, social security, medicare, etc etc.. So in that respect, children are a necessity for the country to have a good economy.. otherwise you have an aging declining country where the burden is oppressive on the younger population to support and take care of the old farts.. and the old farts are living longer to boot.. dementia is going to increase which means those people need even more care.. who is gonna take care of them??? and who is gonna pay those workers taking care of all these seniors? Seniors don't buy much, so they don't contribute a heck of a lot to the economy, you need young people (from children to those becoming parents) to spend and stimulate the economy.. The younger the age of the population, the more vibrant the economy..

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/15/2015 11:15:55 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I'm sure I remember a time when it was considered that the finest thing an adult could was produce children. Children, the story went, turned into adults, and adults were worth any number of new buildings, machines, or any other things that currently fall into the category of 'investment'. Up until the 1970s, for sure, they were an 'investment' - and governments were quite happy to register this fact as they took your 'investment into society' and - if he was male, at least - compulsorily drafted him to fight in WW1, WW2, or any of the other many conflicts thereafter.

At what point, and why, and how, did this all turn around? Is having children an 'indulgence' by the parents, these days - one that's only ever a drain on society and can't conceivably 'add' to society - therefore, something that society should never pay for?


I have looked at this question several times. Could you clarify for me?

An investment or an indulgence for who?

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/15/2015 1:18:59 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
An investment or an indulgence for who?


Overall and in general - for the parents and for society.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/15/2015 1:19:12 PM >

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RE: Are children an investment or an indulgence? - 4/16/2015 7:13:36 PM   
MercTech


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Status: offline 		Conscription in the U.S. started with the Conscription Act of 1863 which sparked rioting and Federal troops firing on its own citizenry.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/congress-passes-civil-war-conscription-act
http://civilwardailygazette.com/2013/03/03/lincoln-signs-the-federal-conscription-act/

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