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College education. - 4/14/2015 8:34:24 PM

ARIES83

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Australia has it a bit different from the US, so I'm specifically asking about the US system.
How many people do you think really benefit from a college education? When you take into account that many students will graduate with (what some embarrassing people have been referring to as) "a debt sentence", which can rival a home loan...
And considering that some people can receive just such an education, and yet for all the information they seem to acquire, still have no common-sense let alone wisdom. Is there something missing in said education?
For those that do come out of the experience enriched and enlightened. What greater prospects for happiness does that now afford them over the next person working at Walmart for under minimum wage?

Lol. I channelled some Russel Brand for a moment there...

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 4/14/2015 8:39:20 PM >

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RE: College education. - 4/14/2015 8:45:07 PM

DaddySatyr

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I have always been a reader and always had a thirst for knowledge. I proudly called myself an autodidact for years and I am still very proud of the advances I made, on my own.

That said; I am a student now and what I have seen encourages me (to a degree). Students in my school are required to take courses that promote critical thinking skills (philosophy and civics) and, based upon my experience, my professors did a good job of fostering just that ... critical thinking. They didn't push an agenda.

Does college help? I don't know, exactly. My course of study is one that would actually fall under the "arts".

I think we need to find a way to find out, early in life, where a student might have the most interest/do the best and educate them toward that end. ie: not every student is cut out for college but some might do really well, going into auto mechanic studies or carpentry.

Then, I think we have to remember that there are some students who really are best suited to working in a Walmart or a McDonald's, too. The world needs grave diggers, as well.

Michael

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RE: College education. - 4/14/2015 9:48:51 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

For those that do come out of the experience enriched and enlightened. What greater prospects for happiness does that now afford them over the next person working at Walmart for under minimum wage?

I was your classical liberal arts student. It enriched my life and provoked curiosities that have led me down many roads and contributed greatly to my enjoyment of living. I don't think you can measure that in money, but I can't say for certain because I've never had any great amount of it.

K.

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 4:36:57 AM

ExiledTyrant

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Personally, I feel that most everything is an illusion. It comes down to how we define ourselves. I am defined by my happiness... fortunately very simple things make me happy ;)

I do not know very many people that are defined by their happiness. Most people are defined by their misery, suffering, illness, etc... and will make every effort to define themselves to you often and continually seek out the things that define them and keep them close.

Years ago I had this brand new cell phone. Being so smert, living in the jungle and all, I kept it in a ziplock bag most of the time... over 300 inches of rain a year, ya need it. Sooo... we had this amazing drought, no rain for a week, and I didn't have my phone in the bag, but the bag was in my pocket. I go to the lava pool to chillax for the afternoon, take out my ziplock bag, take out my phone, drop my phone, the phone done this amazing little dance across the stones and roots, straight into the pool.

I was in shock for about 2-3 seconds then I heard a bunch people gasp. I looked at the mortified looks on their faces and began laughing like a lunatic. It was soooo funny cuz I knew these people were waiting for me to go nuclear, looking at their faces that is exactly how they would've reacted.

I found it very amusing because I do love me some irony. Now, the phone danced around the roots and stones like it was some kind of funky pinball machine... seriously, it took like 4-5 seconds for the stupid thing to stop bouncing and plop into the water. All the people around the pool were bobbing their heads like they were watching a tennis match, followed by the sharp intake of breath once the stupid thing finally splashed down. Yep, I was putting it in the bag when it went all crazy wild on me, yep it was brand new, and yep I had insurance on it (shrugs).

If I were defined by my misery I could've milked that tale out for weeks and got much sympathy... but that there was some funny shit, I don't care who you are.

Socio-economics play a very small role in life. I've seen happily homeless, happily wealthy, miserably homeless, miserably wealthy, and so on and so forth. It is about how we define ourselves.

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 4:54:01 AM

bounty44

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off in a slightly different direction without disagreeing at all with anything that's been said so far...

college has unfortunately become an obligatory extension of high school. grade 13 if you will.

there's only a small percentage of people in college, who are actually prepared, desirous of being there, and willing to do the work. these students benefit greatly.

there's a large percentage who are somewhat prepared, (seemingly) have no better place to go and muddle along somewhat reluctantly and usually end up the better for the experience.

and there's far too many who are unprepared, unwilling, and combative/resistant to the learning process. these "students" would be much better off elsewhere.

one of the things we have going on here in America is the tension that exists within our views of the purpose of college. for me, its liberal education. for others, its job preparation almost to the point of job training. so we have a bit of a paradigm war going on between faculty and administration, and between faculty and students.

for my part---id rather see admissions be tied to academic achievement AND age. if you are in the top % of your class, you can enter college right out of high school.

if you are some middle percent---perhaps you have to wait a couple of years.

if you are in the bottom percent, maybe you don't get in until you are into your 20s.

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 9:55:41 AM

WinsomeDefiance

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I split my education between 2 years when I was young and then 2
Years later in life. I definitely think I benefited more from my later in life education. Probably because I was so thrilled to be there and appreciative of the grants as well as aware of the cost. My debt wasn't great, as I did qualify for grants but for a single mo working her way through I did feel the pinch. It took me a few years to pay off the loans. I believe it enriched my life, but I've always enjoyed learning things and would have probably some gut the knowledge elsewhere for free so who knows. I'd love to take art classes or poterry classes learn hands on about farming, gardening; but sitting in a room and listening to lectures holds no appeal for me.

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 10:02:18 AM

Kaliko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

for my part---id rather see admissions be tied to academic achievement AND age. if you are in the top % of your class, you can enter college right out of high school.

if you are some middle percent---perhaps you have to wait a couple of years.

if you are in the bottom percent, maybe you don't get in until you are into your 20s.

I'm curious. May I ask... For what reason? Meaning, what would you hope the middle and bottom percenters would achieve during that down time? And how would it be measured?

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 10:48:07 AM

bounty44

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i appreciate your asking those things, thank you.

I think my biggest thought (hope) would be, like winsome's testimony above, that students coming to college later would take it more seriously. in general, the "older" students I have had are better than many of their grade related peers who are younger. they get more out of it and they give more back.

another thought would be that life outside the relatively insular halls of academia would allow them to appreciate college more, while at the same time, giving them experience with life skills that are helpful in college---showing up on time, with your work prepared, being respectful to faculty, engaging with what is in front of you, taking advantage of opportunities, etc.

in both cases above, students will have left "real life" to come to college and are there because they want to be. the delay gets rid of the "obligatory extension of high school."

another thought might be, that for the really low academic achieving students, sometimes there are better alternatives for them than college. but so long as some (too many) colleges will accept them (ive had students in my classes with ACT scores in the low teens), those students don't explore those other options. they end up going to college for a year or two, accumulate debt, and either get thrown out or drop out. sometimes they play football, basketball, or baseball for four yrs and don't graduate after their eligibility is up---their predominant reason for being in college to play sports. some folks, even a good friend of mine, argues that's okay, but I disagree.

last thought would be---just the maturing of the brain that takes place between 18 and say 25. I like to think that just by virtue of aging, that the brain of an 18 yr old who is in the bottom 10% of class pales in comparison to that same person's brain 5-6 yrs later.

an example of what im talking about can kinda be seen at the graduate school level---my grad school professors rarely taught undergrad classes---they overwhelmingly preferred to be with students who were older, more mature, and clearly wanted to be there.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 4/15/2015 10:49:12 AM >

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 10:57:33 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Australia has it a bit different from the US, so I'm specifically asking about the US system.
How many people do you think really benefit from a college education? When you take into account that many students will graduate with (what some embarrassing people have been referring to as) "a debt sentence", which can rival a home loan...
And considering that some people can receive just such an education, and yet for all the information they seem to acquire, still have no common-sense let alone wisdom. Is there something missing in said education?
For those that do come out of the experience enriched and enlightened. What greater prospects for happiness does that now afford them over the next person working at Walmart for under minimum wage?

Lol. I channelled some Russel Brand for a moment there...

It is very different now than when I went to college.. I took only 1 year and decided it wasn't for me.. if I want to learn something then I can just buy the textbook for a lot less cost... sure, I don't have the piece of paper but I don't want to work for anyone so its all good.. To get an older person's opinion on college is (imo) gonna be very different from the opinion you get from a 20-something.. The young people are still living at home and if they went to college they are likely working at a low paying job and trying to pay off those loans.. that is if they can even find a job, young people have much higher unemployment rates..

Real income hasn't increased in this country since the late 1970's.. this is where the wealth gap has come from.. I know an engineer that was making in the mid-30s until he started going offshore.. to make 100k he has to travel to places like Liberia & live on oil platforms for 3 to 4 weeks at a time, leaving his family on their own .. then he might be back for a couple of weeks or even just 1 week and back offshore again.. Having to live like this to support his family, how "happy" do you think he is? Really, the way to make money in this country is to start your own business and being lucky to hit the motherlode (many don't, of course).. I just watched the video "Inequality for All" by Robert Reich.. even with an "education", its not a pretty picture.. just sayin'..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 4/15/2015 10:58:55 AM >

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 12:23:52 PM

ARIES83

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Not a pretty picture at all tj.

In regards to delaying college until later in life, I think your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 1:56:23 PM

DesFIP

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My son is a senior in college. He was not a motivated high school student. But that was high school. NY has a superb public university system, we're fortunate that the local community college here is the best in the state and routinely has kids transferring to Harvard, Yale etc. He became motivated as a college freshman and transferred to the top public university in the state, which is also local.

He entered college with no idea of what he wanted to do and is leaving it with a strong knowledge of what he's attracted to and interested in. Viewed from that viewpoint, it's been an amazing success in helping him figure out who he is and what he wants.

He isn't graduating with a technical skill that is highly marketable but that's okay. Critical learning skills are essential in this world.

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 4:12:08 PM

kallisto

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I've got 3 different success stories ... my oldest is in a technical field going after her Masters making mid $130s and loving every minute of her work and continuing her education. My middle one graduated a few years ago with his Bachelors and is having a ball in his business field making in the low $50s and not complaining - knowing he has upward mobility in his profession (as well as monetarily). My youngest went through a trade apprentice program and turned out a few years ago as a journeyman. He is working and making high $50s with not a step inside a college at all and wouldn't have it any other way. My kids went in the direction they knew would make them happy ... If I had forced my youngest to go to college he would have been a dropout statistic. I don't believe college is for everyone. However, I believe everyone has a path in life and they need to find that path to live in and to support themselves.

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 7:05:15 PM

DesFIP

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My point was primarily in response to bounty's assertion that kids who aren't honor students in high school shouldn't go to college.
College was a whole different ballgame and my son found the motivation there that he didn't find in high school.

So I disagree that just because you do poorly in high school, you automatically shouldn't go into college.

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 7:23:55 PM

camille65

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Ohboy I was not mature enough for college when I was there. If I could do it over, I would. If I could go back today, I would.

I was bright enough but I lacked study skills and life experience, going from an uber controlled world to the freedom of college was just too much for me. Also I lacked the.. self-control/ability/desire to make it work.

It didn't help that I had absolutely no clue whatsoever about what I wanted to do with my life.

I don't know if a trade school would have been any more helpful (I magically stayed a freshman at college for three years running before dropping out) it may have been but it is more likely I'd have struggled just as much. It was a chaotic time of life for me.

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 8:18:25 PM

dcnovice

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FR

We haven't touched much on a key facet of my happy college experience: all the education that took place outside the classroom.

A few examples:

-- Sharing a room with an equal rather than kid brothers I could sort of boss around.
-- Being responsible for being up and out each morning.
-- Ditto for meeting deadlines.
-- Befriending non-Americans.
-- Encountering different political opinions and religious traditions.
-- Finding my way around a new city.
-- Volunteering in homeless shelters.
-- Meeting openly gay folks. (I was closeted then, even/especially to myself.)
-- Managing a checking account and ATM card (a novelty back then).
-- Making my own choices about whether to attend church.
-- Going to political rallies and marches.
-- Feeding myself.
-- Adopting a regular exercise routine. (I swam off some 70 pounds my first semester.)
-- Living and studying overseas my junior year.
-- Learning to drink responsibly (still legal for collegians at that point).

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RE: College education. - 4/15/2015 11:28:11 PM

MrRodgers

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It depends on what you do with college. My uncle and father's success without it, uncle 3 EE patents no college, brilliant maybe genius level and dad project EE at IBM for 20 yrs. did algebra at the kitchen table like it was elem. math, no college.

That all probably hurt me because I could get a good job but for my age and the era, you needed a degree of some sort to advance. For one of the professions i.e., lawyer, Dr., engineer etc., obviously, it is worth it even with the debt, because of the income potential.

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RE: College education. - 4/16/2015 4:29:39 AM

bounty44

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remember though i didn't limit college (in my fantasy admission game) to just honor roll students, but rather to some unspecified percentage. i don't know where/what the cutoff would be.

and also, that's not to say there aren't lots of exceptions to my general rule (which your son showed), or people for whom accommodations couldn't be made.

but on the whole, i suspect testimonies like Camille's are more common.

and even if i am wrong---for the most part all that has occurred is a year or two delay for those middle students entering college. my premise is they will still likely be the better for it.

the alternative (the present status quo) is so (too) many students who are in college for whom college is not the learning experience it could be/should be.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 4/16/2015 4:32:52 AM >

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RE: College education. - 4/16/2015 4:32:02 AM

bounty44

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i agree, college's are great places for those things. but in so much as they can be gotten other ways, I don't think they (those experiences) should override a lack of academic preparation or ability to be there.

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RE: College education. - 4/16/2015 4:40:42 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

remember though i didn't limit college (in my fantasy admission game) to just honor roll students, but rather to some unspecified percentage. i don't know where/what the cutoff would be.

and also, that's not to say there aren't lots of exceptions to my general rule (which your son showed), or people for whom accommodations couldn't be made.

but on the whole, i suspect testimonies like Camille's are more common.

and even if i am wrong---for the most part all that has occurred is a year or two delay for those middle students entering college. my premise is they will still likely be the better for it.

the alternative (the present status quo) is so (too) many students who are in college for whom college is not the learning experience it could be/should be.

My uncle was a professor for forty six years.

For part of that time (about four years, I think), he was the Assistant Dean of the Engineering school. What did he spend most of his time doing? Sitting students down and finding a way to gently tell them that they were wasting mom and dad's (or the federal government's) money because they weren't even trying.

He found the job to be so depressing that he had to give it up.

Michael

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RE: College education. - 4/16/2015 6:02:17 AM

satanscharmer

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It seems as though it has become something you just do or have to do. Not something someone necessarily wants to do (in terms of wanting to learn something).
Those with a different goal in mind (such as: I really want to be a ______ when I grow up) are probably more likely to be better poster children for the education system. I don't think it's the lack in quality of the education, I believe it's the lack of drive and motivation and reasoning behind it. Just my opinion, at least.

I went a slightly different route. I was among the top percent of my High School graduating class, but I just wasn't feeling it. I didn't know what I wanted to do, other than move out of my parents' house, so I knew college wasn't immediately right for me. I instead landed a full time job that started at $8.00 an hour and moved out shortly thereafter. My goal was met. After about a year, I took advantage of my employer's college reimbursement program. I continued to take classes here and there, at my pace, while working my way up the chain at work. It's still a piece of paper to me but feel as though I have retained some valuable knowledge because I wanted to be there. I didn't feel pressured to be there. I made the decision when I was ready. Plus, I was able to apply that knowledge in my day-to-day work setting. Grades are not a great indicator for college readiness, IMO. In my case, I had the grades and test scores but no goal. I still don't know what I want to do for a living. Others may not have the great grades and test scores but are ready and do have the drive.

Whether or not college is worth the time, effort, and expense is all very individual. Maybe someone didn't quite come out with a plethora of knowledge, or that high-paying career they were hoping for. It's still possible they came out with something, whether it be life experiences, sense of accomplishment, contacts, friends, even spouses. I'd like to think it was all worth while to a good portion of those people.

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