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Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first time. - 4/19/2015 7:20:49 PM

MercTech

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Some comments in another thread reminded me of a bit of history of the U.S. Military in the middle east. The Marine Corps hymn has a line "to the shores of Tripoli".... This isn't the first time our military was over in North Africa. And, what happened in the 19th century gives some cultural context for the North African countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

http://history1800s.about.com/od/americanwars/tp/barbarywars.htm

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/jefferson_papers/mtjprece.html

In summary, the Muslim countries of North Africa were havens for piracy. Under Islamic law; unbelievers were fair game to be enslaved. Now, if the slave later converted to Islam; they were freed and often put to work on the crews of the corsairs taking ships and enslaving crews. Officers might be ransomed back to their home countries. When that was tried by the Shah reigning in Tripoli; the U.S. didn't negotiate. The Marines went in instead.

Do all Muslims today still believe that anything done to an unbeliever is suitable under Islamic law, no. But there are enough fundamentalist fanatics to drive a whole culture in that direction. ISS seems to be a very prevalent organization that follows this principle.

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/19/2015 11:15:57 PM

MrRodgers

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It has been said by many that the first action in Tripoli by Commodore Edward Preble in 1803 was the real birth of the US Marines.

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/20/2015 8:22:26 AM

Sanity

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Thank you for posting this

I am pretty sure I know of the ignorant posts you are responding to, and yeah. We have had issues with Islamists to our "detriment" since the founding of the country

And all of what you write of is still Islamic law. The text hasnt changed, the thing that varies is the degree of enforcement. And it is enforced to some degree everywhere Islam exists

Something thats a bit puzzling to me is how certain types maintain that foreign people who suffer atrocities from Islamists dont matter, while many of these same people scream that illegal immigrants have every right we do. We should suffer for their sake, relegate ourselves to third world status via open borders and the mass invasion we are suffering because foreigners matter (and they will likely vote Democrat)

Which is it, do people on the other side of our national borders matter as human beings? Does their suffering count for anything, or not. Whatever we can do to impede the progress of Islamists we should do for the sake of humanity and for our own sake.

And why dont womens rights matter, as long as its "over there"

Obama said WE have to help stop the Ebola in Africa but we cant enforce quarantines... Which, the lack of quarantines made little sense. But seriously - why not the same approach to Islamists. There are new atrocities all of the time, here are a few of the latest headlines

ISIS executes more Christians in Libya, video shows
CNN-4 hours ago
(CNN) ISIS operatives have executed two groups of prisoners, believed to be Ethiopian Christians, in Libya, according to a video released ...
Purported ISIS video shows militants killing groups of Ethiopian ...
Washington Post-7 hours ago
ISIS Ethiopian Christians Video: Obama Administration Condemns ...
International Business Times-9 hours ago
ISIS releases video purportedly showing killing of Ethiopian ...
In-Depth-Fox News-10 minutes ago
New ISIS Video Purports To Show Shooting, Beheading Of Christians
Blog-NPR (blog)-Apr 19, 2015
ISIS Video Appears to Show Executions of Ethiopian Christians in ...
In-Depth-New York Times-5 hours ago

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/20/2015 8:26:34 AM

mnottertail

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Art 11. Treaty of Tripoli, 1796:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/20/2015 1:57:36 PM

MercTech

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“When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” Quran 9:5
http://freethoughtnation.com/what-does-the-koran-say-about-nonbelievers/

The treaty of Tripoli does state that that the armed conflict was not of a religious nature. The issue was piracy and kidnapping.

Yet, the pirates themselves justified their acts as righteous attacks on non believers.

No, it is not all Muslims but a vocal and often gun toting lunatic fringe that still deal with the world outside of their tribe and religion to be plunder waiting to be taken.

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/20/2015 2:10:23 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Art 11. Treaty of Tripoli, 1796:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

True enough but when Jefferson finally put the question, how much in total have we paid just for free passage as I understand it ? The answer was $2 million and he had, had enough.

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/20/2015 2:30:59 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

No, it is not all Muslims but a vocal and often gun toting lunatic fringe that still deal with the world outside of their tribe and religion to be plunder waiting to be taken.

Watch you dont trip over all that irony.

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/20/2015 2:39:22 PM

MercTech

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I don't do irony, that's skirt work. (channeling my inner redneck today)

More seriously, I do see a lot of parallels between lunatic religious fringe folk of the idiot Islamic "kill all infidels" sort and the "King James Bible is the literal word of god " crowd.

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/20/2015 2:43:38 PM

Politesub53

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I am glad you get that there is more than one gun toting lunatic fringe. Some posters on here dont seem to be able to understand that.

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/20/2015 6:00:56 PM

slvemike4u

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Hell,the bible seems to be used to justify shit around here all too often.

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/21/2015 2:03:58 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

“When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” Quran 9:5
http://freethoughtnation.com/what-does-the-koran-say-about-nonbelievers/

The treaty of Tripoli does state that that the armed conflict was not of a religious nature. The issue was piracy and kidnapping.

Yet, the pirates themselves justified their acts as righteous attacks on non believers.

No, it is not all Muslims but a vocal and often gun toting lunatic fringe that still deal with the world outside of their tribe and religion to be plunder waiting to be taken.

It is to your credit that you are clearly targetting your comments at the "lunatic fringe" Islamists and not Islam itself. You are setting a standard that others who wish to make similar points could do well to emulate but rarely do.

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/21/2015 10:50:17 AM

MercTech

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A people only appear homogenized when viewed from a distance.
I still believe the most common denominator anywhere is a desire to thrive without interference from the power hungry government.
Too bad that every generation sires those that desire to rule, intend to rule, and are quite eager to extend their rule on others by force.

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RE: Barbary Pirates and the U.S. Iraq isn't the first ... - 4/21/2015 11:00:50 AM

joether

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
No, it is not all Muslims but a vocal and often gun toting lunatic fringe that still deal with the world outside of their tribe and religion to be plunder waiting to be taken.

Let's rephrase this correctly in American terms!

"No, it is not all Americans but a vocal and often gun toting lunatic fringe that still deal with the world outside of their political party and religion to be plunder waiting to be taken".

Yes, the Republican/Tea Party and its 'Military Industrial Complex' that pushes violence, destruction, and war whenever, and however they can. Nowadays, they use conservative media to push the propaganda out to unsuspecting Americans. That lies and misdirection are 'OK' and 'acceptable' tactics to be used.

When the United States of America invaded Iraq, no declaration of war was issued by Congress. Everything done in Iraq was more or less done to Germany, Italy, and Japan back in the 1940's. And those countries the nation declared war upon! What is the difference?

Declaring war would have forced the government to conduct operations and deal with the enemy according to treaties and our laws. By not doing so, was created the term 'Enemy Combatant'. These individuals were taken to prisons and brutally tortured. What information that came from then was often suspect at best, given what we know of torture. Many in our nation knew our enemies would use these as examples when later they attacked us. Kind of like what ISIS is doing right now....

Conservatives and their political party, really have no decent right to open their collective mouths on this issue. They often call on justice when a Democratic President doesn't follow the laws; but are absolutely silent when a Republican President is clearly breaking the law (since most conservatives don't know the 8th amendment exists for a reason).

What was the plunder from Iraq? OIL Who was the US President at the time? George W. Bush. What industry was the Bush family in at the time? OIL! Doesn't take to much imagination to determine the motivation to seek such plunder. Or that of each of 22 industries operated by the US under GWB, the Oil Industry was run by actual professionals and done so efficiently. The leader for handling the antiques in Iraq was some idiot that had two semesters on ancient world history (and not even a college degree at that). All the other industries were very poorly designed and operated. With people that were loyal to the GWB administration being the most important attribute, rather than exceptional skill directly related to the industry.

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