The Big Lie

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joether -> The Big Lie (4/21/2015 10:37:19 AM)
Whenever a car is found to have a possible problem that could result in damage or death to people around it, there is a national recall from the company. Often the company pays for the mechanic's fees to repair the issue. Since that shows 'good faith' on the part of the company to be proactive and make their products as safe as possible. An when bad shit happens, they are taken to court. Recently ice cream was pulled from store shelves because the product could contain material that would be deadly to humans. They company set up a 800 number, and their website has even more information for customers to contact in either case. An when bad shit happens, the are taken to court. Every single product and service in American is set up this way. That our laws seek to prevent products and services from selling defects or crap that could injure or kill people. These companies are forced (for good reasons) to be proactive in addressing problems, informing the public of the possible issue, and taking steps to mitigate if not remove all together. These companies do accept from time to time, that when their efforts are not enough, they will be dragged to a court room and sued for damages. Here is a Product. It does seem to have a serious flaw or defect to its operation. The user I have little doubt is proficient on the use fo the product. The purpose of the video by this individual is to warn the public of its dangers. So why isn't the company that makes the product pushing information out into the mainstream media? Signalling for recalls or free repairs? Or being taken to a court house and sue for damages due to injure or death? Because this is the gun industry we are taking about! The industry that tells us, through its 'mouth piece' that firearms can not be defective. Or have major flaws to them. That they can not cause accidental injury or death not because of the user, but because of the product itself. Nor can they be sued in court for damages. The one industry in the nation that doesn't have to be proactive, promote good faith and good will in the nation, nor fear being dragged to court in a lawsuit, or even more, a class action case. Firearms are a product. Like anything else, they have just as much chance to product a defect as any other. And should not have protections from being sued in court when their operation causes injure and/or death. Imagine if the auto or drug industry had these sort of protections? Often stated by pro gun folks that their products (autos and drugs) cause injury and death. And yet, both industries have been forced by the government to take many steps to product from injury and death with their products. Which is why cars are made with airbags, bumpers, seat belts, and even roll cages. Drugs in many cases require a medical license just to be dispense! The bottles they are in are designed to prevent kids from easily tampering with them. What protections are there on a firearm? Why do Americans have to find out about defective firearms the hard way? The gun industry should be forced down the same line as every other product and service in America. If their products and services are defective and pose a serious risk to the public, they should be forced to make public statements, post recalls, and be sued in court for damages. And that state and government can force them to make sure their products are safely used.

MercTech -> RE: The Big Lie (4/21/2015 11:01:35 AM)
Product liability is tied to using the product in the intended manner. Firearms are subject to liability lawsuits if the function in a manner not intended. There have been firearm recalls for faulty safety mechanisms. http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/safety-center/safety-warning-recall-notice-remington-model700-modelseven.aspx The big lie is that limitations -placed on the rights of an individual to defend themselves makes anyone but criminals safer.

joether -> RE: The Big Lie (4/21/2015 12:21:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Product liability is tied to using the product in the intended manner. Firearms are subject to liability lawsuits if the function in a manner not intended. There have been firearm recalls for faulty safety mechanisms. When was the last time you heard of a firearms recall due to faulty safety mechanisms? I've NEVER heard one. I've heard recalls for autos, baby formula, cat & dog food, ice cream, and even electronics. Largely because the gun industry has the belief if they admit their products can easily kill people, the government might start forcing them to develop better ways of operating the mechanisms. Sort of like how they force auto manufactures to every degree in the products they create and sell. You change just one set of molecules in a drug, and it has a very surprising effect on humans when consumed. When these and other products are found to be faulty, there is a national recall. The companies try to show 'good faith' to the community that they are doing everything they can to ensure their products can not injure or kill someone. Unfortunately, when operating correctly, that's what the firearm's primary purpose is define: to kill. So they have to add in, 'unintentionally' injuring or killing. Where is the national media attention to this specific weapon? The desire to show 'good faith' towards Americans and making them aware of the faulty firearm? Why do individuals have to speak up on it? quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/safety-center/safety-warning-recall-notice-remington-model700-modelseven.aspx I went looking around for this.... Unlike most other products, this proved very elusive. Hence my opening. It came up on 'The Sift' (videosift.com) last night. So I did put in some time to research it. Apparently I was not using the right search criteria. I could find recalls for all sorts of stuff, including many things heard on the national level. But firearm recalls are really tough to find. Its like..weird. The one product I would expect to produce without flaws and problems (apart from say drugs), due to heavily levels of politics being dropped upon it; is the one that is least heard from. So I apologize here.... While the issue is known to the company, I feel its not being made public enough. How many people that own this firearm check with the company? Would you check with the company of an arm you have, not knowing it has a flaw? I have every reason to believe that was this gentleman's intention: to inform the public. My rage, is that the company is not doing enough to make this flaw known. It feels like this is 'OK' and 'acceptable' behavior on the part of the industry as a whole. quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech The big lie is that limitations -placed on the rights of an individual to defend themselves makes anyone but criminals safer. Do you know how many US Soldiers this nation has buried because they had problems with Depression and easy access to firearms to kill themselves with? They're ability to obtain steady treatment for the illness is much harder right now (from the strictest to lax gun control), then it is to obtain a firearm. Limitations are placed on every product in the United States. Some more so than others. Certain products are more heavily regulated because their effects are felt much more than others. Computer games for example are often chalk full of bugs and errors in the coding. Yet, neither of these have led to injury or death because of their existence. When the brakes on a car are faulty, how easily can it injure those in and outside of the vehicle: pretty high. Hence, if you look at the regulations on cars, they require manufacturers to routinely test and create better components that can handle greater 'wear and tear' for hours of operational use. An if you think criminals are safer, try being one. Then you'll understand the error of your thought process....

Kirata -> RE: The Big Lie (4/21/2015 1:15:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether So why isn't the company that makes the product pushing information out into the mainstream media? Signalling for recalls or free repairs? There is a current recall on a limited number of Winchester SXP (3 ½” chamber) shotguns (also called the Super X Pump). We are in the process of contacting all affected owners directly. THE OFFICIAL NOTICE IS BELOW. WINCHESTER SXP (3½" CHAMBER) SHOTGUN SAFETY WARNING AND RECALL NOTICE Winchester Repeating Arms has discovered that a limited number of SXP (3 ½" chamber) shotguns (also called the Super X Pump) may, under certain circumstances, unintentionally discharge while closing the action. Failure to return any affected shotguns for inspection and/or repair may create a risk of harm, including serious personal injury or death. If you own one of the following firearms, please immediately contact our Winchester Consumer Administrative Center to find out if your firearm is affected and should be returned. Please be prepared to provide the serial number of your firearm. [image]local://upfiles/235229/9B641A4C2D3A4BEDB9E1DC015FA68A51.jpg[/image] DO NOT LOAD OR SHOOT ANY OF THE SHOTGUNS LISTED ABOVE CURRENTLY IN YOUR POSSESSION OR CONTROL UNTIL YOU HAVE CONTACTED THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS CONSUMER ADMINISTRATIVE CENTER. If you have purchased one or more of the shotguns listed above, and have confirmed with the Winchester Consumer Administrative Center that it is an affected shotgun, please note that such shotguns should not, under any circumstance, be fired until they have been inspected and/or repaired by the Winchester Repeating Arms Service Center. Source Also covered at TTAG and numerous other gun sites. Perhaps you just missed seeing it because there's nothing in the Ladies Home Journal yet. quote: ORIGINAL: joether Because this is the gun industry we are taking about! The industry that tells us, through its 'mouth piece' that firearms can not be defective. You're making shit up again. K.

MercTech -> RE: The Big Lie (4/21/2015 2:37:30 PM)
Rather than rant; try doing what I did and type in "firearm recall" into any search engine. Just because a firearm recall doesn't make the national news doesn't mean the word hasn't gone out about the recall. It goes out to the appropriate sales venue. Do you expect news about an automobile recall to be on Walmart's website? Just as I wouldn't expect to find a firearm recall posted at Huntington Post. Now, in "Shotgun News" or "American Rifleman"; that is where you find such recalls advertised. Now, the Remington company sent out post cards about the recall to everyone who had registered a warranty for a Remington 700. And there were press releases and coverage of the recall in hunting and shooting magazines. I own a used Remington 700 and I got an email from the dealer who sold it to me listing the serial number range affected by the recall and asked me to verify his records that mine was not potentially defective. Have you ever looked at the bulletin board at the back layaway desk at a Wal-Mart and seen the bulletin board plastered with product recall notices? Claiming firearm companies don't do enough to inform of defects while recall notices for baby carriages and children's toys get bulletin board posting only is a bit ludicrous. I guess we need 100% registration by name and social security number of all purchases to prevent anyone ever getting hurt by a consumer product.

CreativeDominant -> RE: The Big Lie (4/21/2015 2:44:51 PM)
Yes good at that. I googled "firearms under recall" and this is some of what came up: http://gunguy.tempdomainname.com/recalls.htm http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/safety-center/safety-warning-recall-notice-remington-model700- modelseven.aspx https://www.ar-g.com/recallinformation.cfml Maybe you should try that, Penguin...firearms under recall...instead of this..."those fucking gun manufacturers don't ever recall their dangerous, evil product"

igor2003 -> RE: The Big Lie (4/21/2015 2:50:10 PM)
I think Kirata has pretty well covered this particular instance. But the thing that I first thought, when I clicked the link and viewed the video was this: This was one person, with a problem with one shotgun. Nothing that was in the video showed that it was a flaw in multiple guns. Only in the one gun in the video. One problem, with one gun doesn't require a worldwide recall of all of the firearms of that make and model, UNTIL and UNLESS it is shown that the problem is inherent to all, or at least many, of the guns of the same make and model. If one new car has a tie rod that breaks, causing an accident, the manufacturer doesn't recall all of their cars that have that same type of tie rod installed. It may have simply been a problem with that one tie rod. It isn't until it is shown that multiple cars have that same exact problem that a recall is initiated. It seems to me that you had a knee jerk reaction to this video of this one gun that prompted you to write the OP. As it turned out, and as Kirata has shown, it does seem to be a design flaw in this make and model of shotgun, and a recall has been initiated. In your post #3 you write, "When was the last time you heard of a firearms recall due to faulty safety mechanisms? I've NEVER heard one." In both Kirata's and MercTech's posts it is shown that firearm manufacturers do initiate recalls when there is indeed a flaw in the manufacture of a firearm. Maybe the reason there aren't more recalls is because there simply aren't that many flaws that merit an actual recall. Also, just because a person or persons don't like a particular design for a particular firearm does not mean it is a flaw and needs to be recalled. There are different firearms for different purposes, and different levels of experience. Just as (at least in my opinion) you don't turn a newly licensed teenager loose behind the wheel of a high powered Ferrari or Lambo (damn the rich kids anyway), not all firearms are appropriate for all shooters. Very often, the flaw isn't in the weapon. It's in the person holding it.

BamaD -> RE: The Big Lie (4/21/2015 2:52:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Rather than rant; try doing what I did and type in "firearm recall" into any search engine. Just because a firearm recall doesn't make the national news doesn't mean the word hasn't gone out about the recall. It goes out to the appropriate sales venue. Do you expect news about an automobile recall to be on Walmart's website? Just as I wouldn't expect to find a firearm recall posted at Huntington Post. Now, in "Shotgun News" or "American Rifleman"; that is where you find such recalls advertised. Now, the Remington company sent out post cards about the recall to everyone who had registered a warranty for a Remington 700. And there were press releases and coverage of the recall in hunting and shooting magazines. I own a used Remington 700 and I got an email from the dealer who sold it to me listing the serial number range affected by the recall and asked me to verify his records that mine was not potentially defective. Have you ever looked at the bulletin board at the back layaway desk at a Wal-Mart and seen the bulletin board plastered with product recall notices? Claiming firearm companies don't do enough to inform of defects while recall notices for baby carriages and children's toys get bulletin board posting only is a bit ludicrous. I guess we need 100% registration by name and social security number of all purchases to prevent anyone ever getting hurt by a consumer product. We went around about this in the thread about the woman who didn't secure her firearm, her toddler got a hold of it and shot her in a Walmart. Someone, I think it was Kirata found the recall on the firearm in question. It wasn't on any site Joether would frequent but it was on a site that the gun owner would. As Kirata pointed out, fixing a problem with a firearm wouldn't make national news. I will add to that that it wouldn't fit the narrative. Well named thread, the idea that there are no firearms recalls, that no one who is pro-gun side cares about safety and the not allowing gun manufactures to be sued because someone missuses them is the big lie. The Adams firearms company was driven out of business by lawsuits, one of the plaintiffs was the ,,,,,,NRA. Can we close this bogus thread now?

stef -> RE: The Big Lie (4/21/2015 7:24:46 PM)
For once, a thread has an accurate subject. Well done.

joether -> RE: The Big Lie (4/22/2015 2:55:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Rather than rant; try doing what I did and type in "firearm recall" into any search engine. Just because a firearm recall doesn't make the national news doesn't mean the word hasn't gone out about the recall. It goes out to the appropriate sales venue. Do you expect news about an automobile recall to be on Walmart's website? Just as I wouldn't expect to find a firearm recall posted at Huntington Post. Now, in "Shotgun News" or "American Rifleman"; that is where you find such recalls advertised. Now, the Remington company sent out post cards about the recall to everyone who had registered a warranty for a Remington 700. And there were press releases and coverage of the recall in hunting and shooting magazines. I own a used Remington 700 and I got an email from the dealer who sold it to me listing the serial number range affected by the recall and asked me to verify his records that mine was not potentially defective. Have you ever looked at the bulletin board at the back layaway desk at a Wal-Mart and seen the bulletin board plastered with product recall notices? Claiming firearm companies don't do enough to inform of defects while recall notices for baby carriages and children's toys get bulletin board posting only is a bit ludicrous. I guess we need 100% registration by name and social security number of all purchases to prevent anyone ever getting hurt by a consumer product. Thank you very much MercTech. I want to be a better informed person. Perhaps my initial post was more rant that 'informed'. In looking at your information presented, and checking on it; it does seem correct. I never thought to use the word 'recall' in the search strings. That would have shown much more information. I guess the heart of my argument was that automobiles and firearms are so common in our society. That I hear of one so often, but not the other. Even on conservative media sites (FOX, Drudge, etc.). I stumbled upon this video that I link that was a month old on youtube. I had no reason to doubt the individual knew what they were talking about; nor ignorant of proper firearm safety. Yet, unlike every other industry in this nation, the firearm industry is given many more advantages over the public. Imagine if the pharmaceutical industry had the same advantages over the public? People would be either suffering new conditions or dying out right! The point I'm making, is that no industry should be given any more advantage over any other industry in the nation, from a legal stand point. There are exceptions to every rule. I dont see the textile industry's leading people say that President Obama will ban all cotton for cloths in the last 650 days he's in office; Yet at the recent NRA convention, Wayne La Pierre stated the President would ban firearms within the last 650 days. Even though in either situation, its unlikely at best to happen, since the issue would have to process through the Republican controlled Congress. I think they would have something to say of their cotton underwear being ban from purchase or ownership; we might see those brown spots more clearly on their cloths....

joether -> RE: The Big Lie (4/22/2015 3:33:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: igor2003 I think Kirata has pretty well covered this particular instance. But the thing that I first thought, when I clicked the link and viewed the video was this: This was one person, with a problem with one shotgun. Nothing that was in the video showed that it was a flaw in multiple guns. Only in the one gun in the video. One problem, with one gun doesn't require a worldwide recall of all of the firearms of that make and model, UNTIL and UNLESS it is shown that the problem is inherent to all, or at least many, of the guns of the same make and model. That would require some research to find if the same thing has been experienced elsewhere. When it comes to products made in a batch (typical manufacturing process); if something is bad in the batch, the whole batch is probably effected. When it comes to produces that are consumed (i.e. food) certain chemicals that are harmful/deadly to living organisms (i.e. people and pets) can effect many batches. Which means stores must remove product not just of those rolling into their distribution point, but from the store shelves themselves. Its to take precautionary measures. 'Good Faith' as it were. quote: ORIGINAL: igor2003 If one new car has a tie rod that breaks, causing an accident, the manufacturer doesn't recall all of their cars that have that same type of tie rod installed. It may have simply been a problem with that one tie rod. It isn't until it is shown that multiple cars have that same exact problem that a recall is initiated. It seems to me that you had a knee jerk reaction to this video of this one gun that prompted you to write the OP. When its established that a tie rod breaks and the result is an accident, people perform research. They study every aspect of the crash. The condition of the car in question. The driver's actions and their health just moments before the accident. To say 'A LOT OF RESEARCH' is performed would be an understatement. The results have led both auto manufactures to produce better cars, but for governments to issue better laws or road designs. Typically in the research they will try to recreate the situation and study all the data. When a particular part is found to be the resulting problem (process of logic in studying the accident); its then determine how the product could be better designed to mitigate the problem in the future. With firearms, I would imagine the process is incredibly less complex or complicated. A firearm has not even 1/1000th the parts a typical car in America may have. Likewise, destroying a gun to find out where the flaw originates is much less of a cost than destroying a few cars. So when the company first heard of this video, they should have walked down to their armory, selected the weapon in question and started testing it. Within hours if not days, they would have an answer to the problem (having replicated it several times). You have issue that I want products and services being solid in the nation to be as free of flaws and problems as possible? That when a fault is found, its made aware to as many media sources as possible to warn the public? That a company should do its utmost in being fair and honest to the public rather than pushing politics when its unneeded? How many people looked at the thread's OP? How many checked? Did someone write back to state the information they found and presented it? Yes, yes, and yes. Mission Accomplished. Yeah, I framed it in political terms, BECAUSE, we are on a political forum. I tried another thread on sending robots to the moon with 3D printing qualities to create a moon base without a single human stepping foot on it. It got like 3 replies and a dozen views. Because I left it un-political. Now if I had made it political, it stands to reason I would have seen more replies with a greater viewership to the thread. quote: ORIGINAL: igor2003 As it turned out, and as Kirata has shown, it does seem to be a design flaw in this make and model of shotgun, and a recall has been initiated. True. However that information Kirata presented was posted 4/20/15 (per his source site information). Just a few hours before my post I suspect. Maybe the 'places of information' I was looking through had not had an active link to it. quote: ORIGINAL: igor2003 In your post #3 you write, "When was the last time you heard of a firearms recall due to faulty safety mechanisms? I've NEVER heard one." In both Kirata's and MercTech's posts it is shown that firearm manufacturers do initiate recalls when there is indeed a flaw in the manufacture of a firearm. Maybe the reason there aren't more recalls is because there simply aren't that many flaws that merit an actual recall. Every product produced has a chance for flaws to be produced. That is why sound quality assurances are needed by the company. Every industry has it, including the firearm and auto. Even when the manufacturing process is sound, flaws can develop because of the quality of the material, or unknown conditions present a new issue to research and determine. This is a gun that slipped through the process. That implies a failure of the system. To which it will be up to the company to determine where and how the failure was created, and fix it. quote: ORIGINAL: igor2003 Also, just because a person or persons don't like a particular design for a particular firearm does not mean it is a flaw and needs to be recalled. There are different firearms for different purposes, and different levels of experience. Just as (at least in my opinion) you don't turn a newly licensed teenager loose behind the wheel of a high powered Ferrari or Lambo (damn the rich kids anyway), not all firearms are appropriate for all shooters. Very often, the flaw isn't in the weapon. It's in the person holding it. Yet all firearms are required to be manufactured according to the laws of the local, state and federal levels! The reason research is performed is to determine what caused the accident. Whether it was user error, vehicle error, object error (i.e. a miss marked road sign), or situation error. Or any combination of those four concepts. Easier to do with a firearm than a car. Putting a teenager into a vehicle they are not trained and tested on, is the same as giving them a firearm whose properties are different. For example, the teenager might have fired a rifle, but how about an M-98? The recoil felt on an AK-47 is different from that of an M-98. Likewise, I would not allow some teenager to use a M-98, without first demonstrating they are proficient with other firearms. Just as I would have them learn on a 'clunker' of a car and a few months, before giving them a better car. After a time with that car, perhaps a sports cars. Assuming error is of the user and nothing else, is faulty reasoning. That is why things are researched completely. There have been many examples in which the failure would happen with a novice or expert using said object. Just as there are examples of experts misusing the object (i.e. doing something a novice might perform).

MercTech -> RE: The Big Lie (4/22/2015 5:30:44 PM)
I think the big difference in things like automobile recalls as opposed to specialty items like firearms, welding machines, and heavy machinery is both in the perception of the media and the target customer base. An automobile being defective can effect everyone on the public roads. More specialized items put a much smaller population base at risk. I had an HP laptop that had what was identified as a defective batch of battery that could potentially start a fire. I was contacted because I had registered ownership with the manufacturer and received a free replacement battery. I doubt anyone but customers of a couple of model of laptop ever heard of it. At my last contract; we had a two day mad scramble when a recall of defective fall protection harnesses was received. We finally got hands on all of the 300 that had been purchased last year. I doubt anyone that isn't working as a Safety Officer or working in charge of inspecting safety equipment ever heard of the recall. When firearms get a recall; the word goes out to persons who registered a warranty first, retailers who purchased those models second, and a press release for those media sources that cover such things like hunting magazines. Notification to the target customer base. The only nationwide warning I've seen about a firearm problem made the equivalent of page ten in the national news sources; if you fire more than three rounds from a 3D printed gun, there is no guarantee it won't blow up in your face. And, every one someone has tested has failed after 10 rounds. There are rarely recalls on firearms. One of the reasons for that is the proof testing done on firearms. That will catch any defects in design or manufacture before things are marked, serialized, and readied for sale. At least the problems that don't require long term wear to surface as a defect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_test From what I've seen; the only things with more stringent QC requirements than firearms are Submarines, Nuclear Power Plants, Bomb Manufacture, and Aircraft Manufacture (Including missiles and manned space flight).

Kirata -> RE: The Big Lie (4/22/2015 5:38:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether So when the company first heard of this video, they should have walked down to their armory, selected the weapon in question and started testing it. Within hours if not days, they would have an answer to the problem (having replicated it several times). The original YouTube video (here) was posted on April 17th. By April 19th, two days before you even started this thread, awareness of the Winchester recall was already being spread on gun boards and websites (e.g., here and here). Too bad they didn't get your advice sooner. K.

MercTech -> RE: The Big Lie (4/22/2015 6:11:32 PM)
BTW, I forgot to mention a site I found earlier about recalls... List of firearms and ammunition recalls... http://gunguy.tempdomainname.com/recalls.htm

CreativeDominant -> RE: The Big Lie (4/22/2015 7:35:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech BTW, I forgot to mention a site I found earlier about recalls... List of firearms and ammunition recalls... http://gunguy.tempdomainname.com/recalls.htm Hey! you Merc Guy...whaddaya stealing my stuff for, eh? http://gunguy.tempdomainname.com/recalls.htm http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/safety-center/safety-warning-recall-notice-remington-model700- modelseven.aspx https://www.ar-g.com/recallinformation.cfml [:D][;)]

BamaD -> RE: The Big Lie (4/22/2015 7:43:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech BTW, I forgot to mention a site I found earlier about recalls... List of firearms and ammunition recalls... http://gunguy.tempdomainname.com/recalls.htm Hey! you Merc Guy...whaddaya stealing my stuff for, eh? http://gunguy.tempdomainname.com/recalls.htm http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/safety-center/safety-warning-recall-notice-remington-model700- modelseven.aspx https://www.ar-g.com/recallinformation.cfml [:D][;)] So we have a bogus thread based on something not being done which is being done. Even the case that demonstrates the lack of recalls having been recalled before the thread even started great job Joether!

joether -> RE: The Big Lie (4/22/2015 11:56:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech I think the big difference in things like automobile recalls as opposed to specialty items like firearms, welding machines, and heavy machinery is both in the perception of the media and the target customer base. An automobile being defective can effect everyone on the public roads. More specialized items put a much smaller population base at risk. To a degree, I agree with you. Objectively speaking, a firearm being defective should be handled like any other product or service to the public; its the business's ethical responsibility to show 'good faith' in notifying the public. Smaller objects are more easily had than large ones (that often cost much more). There are exceptions to this (i.e. a diamond ring could cost many thousands of dollars). I may not expect the public to by backhoes from Caterpillar; but firearms are well within reasonable purchase. quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech I had an HP laptop that had what was identified as a defective batch of battery that could potentially start a fire. I was contacted because I had registered ownership with the manufacturer and received a free replacement battery. I doubt anyone but customers of a couple of model of laptop ever heard of it. How many firearm owners do you know are 'OK' with the company or government knowing they have a firearm? Most people do not have a problem with their electronics. I used to have an Alien rig for gaming. I didn't have a problem telling the company, since they are the ones I purchased it from directly. But do try to push firearm registration as a thread on here. See what happens....(evil laughter) quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech At my last contract; we had a two day mad scramble when a recall of defective fall protection harnesses was received. We finally got hands on all of the 300 that had been purchased last year. I doubt anyone that isn't working as a Safety Officer or working in charge of inspecting safety equipment ever heard of the recall. My point on the firearm in the OP. People that are uninformed or unaware, handling a firearm that is defective, is even more at odds of injury or death. Yes, most firearm users handle loaded arms with care. Its quite different when the safety is on, and the gun STILL discharges. Something one might not expect. quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech When firearms get a recall; the word goes out to persons who registered a warranty first, retailers who purchased those models second, and a press release for those media sources that cover such things like hunting magazines. Notification to the target customer base. The only nationwide warning I've seen about a firearm problem made the equivalent of page ten in the national news sources; if you fire more than three rounds from a 3D printed gun, there is no guarantee it won't blow up in your face. And, every one someone has tested has failed after 10 rounds. Is this due to some sort of state and/or federal requirement under law? Or a standardized process within the industry? If 'no' to each previous question, are the rules and process the same or near same between companies? Have seen a 3D printed firearm do an entire magazine from an AK (single fire, not full auto). Technology will evidentually improve upon that. I have no doubt about it.... quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech There are rarely recalls on firearms. One of the reasons for that is the proof testing done on firearms. That will catch any defects in design or manufacture before things are marked, serialized, and readied for sale. At least the problems that don't require long term wear to surface as a defect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_test Even the best quality assurance groups I've seen, will have a deflect slip through the process. Coca Cola will produced a few hundred cans every minute. While the can may sound like a simple design, it does come in different parts. Likewise, the liquid has to have the right ingredients. There are many places were one screw up can cause a problem later on. An that each can is marked to help company officials determine how far reaching the problem might be when and issue arises. No product, from the simple pencil on up to a Boeing aircraft can be created without the chance of a defect. And that defect could make it pass the quality assurance inspection only to be found later on by the customer. Many court cases to date show judges and juries being informed on how the manufacturing and QA processes operate. This is to demonstrate that they have done the best they could in removing the deflects before the point of sale. Doesn't always work as a tactic in the court room. quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech From what I've seen; the only things with more stringent QC requirements than firearms are Submarines, Nuclear Power Plants, Bomb Manufacture, and Aircraft Manufacture (Including missiles and manned space flight). Should look into pharmaceuticals. The change of just a few hundred molecules by a tiny deviation in a pill could result in serious issues if not death in the consumer.

joether -> RE: The Big Lie (4/23/2015 12:05:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: joether So when the company first heard of this video, they should have walked down to their armory, selected the weapon in question and started testing it. Within hours if not days, they would have an answer to the problem (having replicated it several times). The original YouTube video (here) was posted on April 17th. By April 19th, two days before you even started this thread, awareness of the Winchester recall was already being spread on gun boards and websites (e.g., here and here). Too bad they didn't get your advice sooner. Never stated I was a perfect researcher.... An I think I explained things previously regarding it. So consider cutting me some freaking slack!

joether -> RE: The Big Lie (4/23/2015 12:12:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech BTW, I forgot to mention a site I found earlier about recalls... List of firearms and ammunition recalls... http://gunguy.tempdomainname.com/recalls.htm Added to the bookmarks.

joether -> RE: The Big Lie (4/23/2015 12:19:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech BTW, I forgot to mention a site I found earlier about recalls... List of firearms and ammunition recalls... http://gunguy.tempdomainname.com/recalls.htm Hey! you Merc Guy...whaddaya stealing my stuff for, eh? http://gunguy.tempdomainname.com/recalls.htm http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/safety-center/safety-warning-recall-notice-remington-model700- modelseven.aspx https://www.ar-g.com/recallinformation.cfml [:D][;)] So we have a bogus thread based on something not being done which is being done. Even the case that demonstrates the lack of recalls having been recalled before the thread even started great job Joether! I seem to recall someone believing 'hook, line, and sinker' in a website's 'viewpoint' that proved to be artifical. Meaning it was satire. My OP is not based on a false amount of information. Its based on hearing information not from the company directly, nor establishing information when a search was conducted. At least I do research stuff; can you say the same?

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