RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/3/2015 11:20:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub tweak we went over this and over this ago in another thread and these claims turned out to be fluff... There was a large increase of death from overdose... there were continued illegal support for cheaper drugs that were often cut and more dangerous... Money was not saved in law enforcement and there was a significant increase in costs in treatment centers... this policy is a failure to people. There is no legalization of drugs... but what has made a difference and would in the US as well is the treatment of addicts... THAT IS WHAT WORKS... not the removal of penalties... I am all for changing our policy on drugs to match their treatment services... remember they continue to fight drugs in the same way we do. Butch I don't recall any of the claims you are making actually happening. To me they are unsubstantiated claims that contradict the evidence presented in my post without any back up. I've produced links and sources to back up my claims, and there are a lot more where they came from. If you are going to contest this evidence produce something more persuasive than your opinion. What is a failure and a total failure is the war on drugs. Can you nominate a single goal that it has met that might contribute to ending the drug problem? Has it reduced supply? No. Has it eliminated trafficking? No. Has it reduced drug related deaths? No. Has it reduced the numbers of addicts? No. Has it eliminated corruption? No. Has it made the cartels enormously wealthy and powerful? Yes. It is simply ridiculous to claim that results like these are signs of a successful policy.

PeonForHer -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/3/2015 11:20:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Peon I just cannot understand why people think crime and money is important... it is not... flat out... making a killer addictive drug like heroin legal and freely accessed and at a reasonable price will only addict and kill and destroy more families... money means crap... an addict constantly needs more and more and more... and no matter the cost they cannot work or employ themselves and no matter how cheap will either revert to crime or worse to support their habit or die. ALL THE REST MEANS SHIT!!!! Butch Some will do that to themselves with (say) heroin, no doubt. But the majority won't, just like the majority don't destroy their lives with alcohol. Besides, prohibiting a thing isn't the same as controlling it. In some cases - as with this one - I think it does exactly the opposite of controlling it.

lovmuffin -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/3/2015 11:47:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HunterCA I don't know about you but I drive everywhere now and see gobs of tobacco rehabilitation centers using the billions of dollars in fines the tobacco industry paid in the settlement. Drive around your city. I'm sure you'll see the same if you look. Ya didn't drive around to all those mansions where the lawyers live who got half of those billions. You might have seen some of the evidence of all that money. That settlement was a crappy deal.

Politesub53 -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/3/2015 3:55:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle After over half a century of the war on drugs, illegal drugs are more freely available, more popular and cheaper than ever. The numbers of addicts seems to be increasing slowly while the number of deaths due to the illegal nature of the business is far higher than ever. And 'victory' in the war on drugs (whatever that might be) is as elusive and distant as ever. So please tell me what the many billions expended, the lives wasted, the tens of thousands imprisoned in the futile war on drugs have achieved, apart from enriching the gangsters who run the cartels. The answer appears to be nothing at all. So are you suggesting all drugs should be legal ? I see that as the road to misery.

MasterJaguar01 -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/3/2015 5:19:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01 First of all, the only ones paying the taxes, are the ones using the drugs. So you are not subsidzing anyone. Secoondly I am all for using revenue from taxed tobacco to be used for Nicotine rehab as well!!! The nicotine in tobacco (as it has been genetically engineered by the tobacco companies) is as (or more so) addicting than heroin. By all means, use the money to help you break the addiction! Nicotine addicts need as much help as heroin addicts! And if they dont want your help, they get it anyway? First of all, it's not MY help :) I couldn't even prevent (despite my best efforts) my stepson from starting to smoke and becoming addicted to nicotine. If I were helping nicotine addicts, it would be a disaster. My father-in-law can't walk more than 4 feet without sitting down to rest, because his lungs are caked with emphysema. Secondly, help is available and optional. Smoke all you want. I abhor nanny state laws. But as long as we are taxing it, let's make rehab available for people who want it.

slvemike4u -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/3/2015 5:37:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01 Yes it is good. Suppliers go out of business. Addicts do one of two things: 1) Get help (theoretically more drug rehab funds available from taxation 2) Die from their addiction of cheap heroin Either way demand goes down. Okay. I need a minute, here. It's okay for me, a non-weed smoking tax payer to to subsidize the results of an addicts poor choices, but society has demonized me for smoking tobacco and has flat-out told me that they won't subsidize the results of my poor choices? I guess some people are more equal than others. Michael Were certain drugs legalized one would assume the tax revenues from those sales would finance any additional drug rehabs.....so your point is invalid. Not a big surprise,eh ?

kdsub -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/3/2015 5:59:20 PM)
I would venture to say everyone addicted to heroin either recovers through treatment or destroys their lives... There is no in between when addicted... Unlike some other more controllable drugs. The sad part is most addicted cannot afford treatment. Butch

tweakabelle -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 1:45:21 AM)
Once again you are either poorly informed or just plain wrong. Most people who use heroin do not become addicted to it, but live otherwise unremarkable lives, holding down jobs, raising families etc. Your posts echo the worst kind of sensationalist coverage this topic receives in the gutter press - the only question your posts raise is: "are the cliches you use jaded or merely false?' One addict told me that having a heroin addiction in itself is not a problem. The problems start when you can't get any or have no money to purchase any, according to her. Heroin in its pure state is non-toxic ie it doesn't degrade body organs like alcohol degrades the liver. But you should know all this if you feel you are well informed about heroin and other illegal drugs that you can pontificate with the level of certainty that your posts display.

tweakabelle -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 2:01:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle After over half a century of the war on drugs, illegal drugs are more freely available, more popular and cheaper than ever. The numbers of addicts seems to be increasing slowly while the number of deaths due to the illegal nature of the business is far higher than ever. And 'victory' in the war on drugs (whatever that might be) is as elusive and distant as ever. So please tell me what the many billions expended, the lives wasted, the tens of thousands imprisoned in the futile war on drugs have achieved, apart from enriching the gangsters who run the cartels. The answer appears to be nothing at all. So are you suggesting all drugs should be legal ? I see that as the road to misery. It seems to me that prohibition is most of the problem, just as it was with alcohol in the US when Prohibition was enforced there. There is a variety of alternative models ranging from medically supervised distribution to complete deregulation. It ought to be clear by now that treating drug use as a legal issue, a law enforcement issue produces negative outcomes. At a very minimum, we ought to regard drug use and addiction as health issues, not moral or legal issues. There is simply no reason to assume that decriminalisation is a "road to misery". If you study the results of the Portuguese decriminalisation strategy, you will find that your fears are without a basis in reality. The road to misery is the status quo, which is a complete failure as a deterrent strategy, merely serving to enrich the gangsters who control the cartels, at an enormous cost in human life, money and misery.

cloudboy -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 7:18:03 AM)
Too many people love to stick with programs that don't work because they're afraid to make changes. Also, the ATF would claim doom and gloom if its department faced a reorganization. No Child Left Behind and Federal Involvement in Education: Not working. Immigration and Customs Enforcement: Not Working The War on Drugs and its associate federal agencies: Not working Look at Baltimore, it took a riot to get a change in the system. Overall the USA is so conservative that innovation and thinking outside the box happens mostly on message boards.

HunterCA -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 7:33:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Too many people love to stick with programs that don't work because they're afraid to make changes. Also, the ATF would claim doom and gloom if its department faced a reorganization. quote: That's correct Cloudboy. Such as every liberal throw money at it program since the Great Society. Cloudboy, do you know what the Breat Society was and how it faired? quote: No Child Left Behind and Federal Involvement in Education: Not working. Immigration and Customs Enforcement: Not Working The War on Drugs and its associate federal agencies: Not working Look at Baltimore, it took a riot to get a change in the system. Overall the USA is so conservative that innovation and thinking outside the box happens mostly on message boards. Inane. Simply rainbows and fairy dust. Why do I even read your input.

HunterCA -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 7:41:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy No Child Left Behind and Federal Involvement in Education: Not working. Immigration and Customs Enforcement: Not Working The War on Drugs and its associate federal agencies: Not working Cloudboy.... No child left behind worked fine in Texas. Bush tried to implement nationally and Ted Kennedy stepped in to "fix" it. Immigration and Customs. In the 80's the deal Reagan cut with the democrats was he granted amnesty now they would protect the border latter. Where's the democtrat half of the deal? Besides the Democrat theory was a one time amnesty would take pressure off the border. All it did was cause millions more to come knowing they'd get the next amnesty. A complete liberal lie to the American people. War on drugs, is a no win situation ever, oh except for in the case of Chairman Mao in China. The leftist response. He completely stripped everyone of every right, told the police to stop drug, personal rights be damned. Kicked doors down in the middle of the night. Hauled people of to jail never to be seen or heard of again. After a few years of that sort of thing, drugs stopped. Again, the leftist, liberal solution. Cloudboy. You're ignorant of anything and everything that an adult needs to know to function in life. No wonder you're a liberal.

kdsub -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 9:03:19 AM)
quote: Once again you are either poorly informed or just plain wrong. Most people who use heroin do not become addicted to it, but live otherwise unremarkable lives, holding down jobs, raising families etc. Your posts echo the worst kind of sensationalist coverage this topic receives in the gutter press - the only question your posts raise is: "are the cliches you use jaded or merely false?' No tweak... please read THIS... out of 4.2 million users in the US it is estimated 23 percent become addicted... or 996,000 is that enough people with destroyed lives and families enough to prove you are wrong? There is no such thing as a well adjusted holding jobs and raising family heroin addict ... if you think there is you are naive. Butch

HunterCA -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 9:25:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Too many people love to stick with programs that don't work because they're afraid to make changes. Also, the ATF would claim doom and gloom if its department faced a reorganization. No Child Left Behind and Federal Involvement in Education: Not working. Immigration and Customs Enforcement: Not Working The War on Drugs and its associate federal agencies: Not working Look at Baltimore, it took a riot to get a change in the system. Overall the USA is so conservative that innovation and thinking outside the box happens mostly on message boards. Cloudboy, I know it's difficult for you to think beyond, "ummm, food good. Fire bad, burn fingers. Mommy say no touch." But maybe you could review this and comment. One grunt you agree. Two grunts you disagree. No grunts you're just confused. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/01/analysis-in-baltimore-unrest-liberalism-on-trial/

PeonForHer -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 11:02:01 AM)
FR Ummm - has anyone considered the costs of the various proposals? Say, the costs of a) legalising but providing rehab programmes versus b) keeping it all illegal, with the attendant costs of detection, law enforcement, punitive measures, etc? (I ask purely as a kind of thought experiment: obviously, no one wants to see this issue exclusively in terms of money.)

kdsub -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 11:16:11 AM)
Peon the problem is one does not necessarily guarantee the reduction of the other. In a past thread there was a lot of research and links that showed some of the experiments in Europe did not reduce policing of drugs and just increased costs overall for treatment. But don't get me wrong I think free treatment along with the war on drugs, as we are doing now, is needed and would work better than the European model. Butch

MercTech -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 1:25:01 PM)
We have lost the war on drugs. We made the war on poverty into institutionalized and subsidized poverty. Novel idea; declare a loss of the war on drugs and tax recreational pharmaceuticals to fund re-opening a Public Health Service and fund public works like taking care of the infrastructure of our highways and railways that are deteriorating due to lack of upkeep?

Sanity -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 1:30:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech We have lost the war on drugs. We made the war on poverty into institutionalized and subsidized poverty. Novel idea; declare a loss of the war on drugs and tax recreational pharmaceuticals to fund re-opening a Public Health Service and fund public works like taking care of the infrastructure of our highways and railways that are deteriorating due to lack of upkeep? What do we do to the dastardly criminal capitalists who dare to evade the taxes though (Death by choke hold?)

Aylee -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 1:53:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer FR Ummm - has anyone considered the costs of the various proposals? Say, the costs of a) legalising but providing rehab programmes versus b) keeping it all illegal, with the attendant costs of detection, law enforcement, punitive measures, etc? (I ask purely as a kind of thought experiment: obviously, no one wants to see this issue exclusively in terms of money.) Why not see it in terms of money? Seems very sensible to me. It is tangible and easy to articulate how it is working. X amount spent in Y amount of time.

MercTech -> RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs (5/4/2015 2:11:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech We have lost the war on drugs. We made the war on poverty into institutionalized and subsidized poverty. Novel idea; declare a loss of the war on drugs and tax recreational pharmaceuticals to fund re-opening a Public Health Service and fund public works like taking care of the infrastructure of our highways and railways that are deteriorating due to lack of upkeep? What do we do to the dastardly criminal capitalists who dare to evade the taxes though (Death by choke hold?) The same thing we do now; put them in elected office.

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