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Heirarchal Significance - 5/9/2015 10:14:45 PM   
RemoteUser


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People sometimes make me wonder. It's due to the many unusual and interesting ways that people choose to behave that I enjoyed studying about them, social confluence in particular. Why do people get along (or not)?

We don't have many comparisons to make where social or cultural devleopment are concerned between humans and not-humans, except to study the animal kingdom, and most social heirarchies amongst animal are very basic. Males and females both establish pecking orders with displays and brute force; if one looks better, is stronger, in general is more fit to survive and thrive, then one rules over the others.

Comparing humans to humans is much messier. We have government and religion. We have economics. We have industry and science. We establish ourselves over one another through any number of means, as they are recognized, within the social or cultural boundaries in which they are pertinent. Then, there is also force, which we also use regularly to determine who leads and who follows.

That established, it becomes more interesting (to me, anyhow) to see how the heirarchal establishment is created and sustained in a microculture like "the community". Not just how the dominant role establishes itself over the submisisve one, but how dominants and submissives establish themselves to one another. That led me to a few curious thoughts, and one thing that came from it was to consider how individuals view their own role in comparison to others.

In p(l)ainer English: why does one select a role of following another, or to control another? There's basic urges, everyone has those, but when the chemicals subside and the flush of activity fades, if those interests still exist, what drives them? Is there a drive to establish order through direction or action; is there a conscious or unconscious method driven by an internal motor that creates a perception within us that influences how we interact with, or measures ourselves against, others.

Or maybe make this as simple as it gets: what, in your life, sets you on the path you're on as either a dominant or submissive personality? Does it just feel right? Are you in an environment that encourages your predilections? Do you make a conscious choice or run with your gut? Are you inspired to certain acts by your partner? (And I can't help but wonder, is this all more difficult, or perhaps in a way simpler, for people who bend both ways as a "switch"?)

For myself, I would have to say that my environment had the most significant impact. I was groomed to be of a higher class than I am. The more I was encouraged to be "better", the less I liked it. Everyone in my eyes was supposd to be equal, at least so it was said, but the actions and beliefs others took and encouraged me to participate in rankled. Everyone has their shining moments and their limits; but most of the limitations people face are imposed upon them, and enforced internally.

So I rebelled against the label of superiority even as I studied it and practiced it. I'm a fair intellectual, sure, but I'm not bench pressing five hundred pounds anytime soon; I'm not fabulously wealthy. There are other measuring sticks where I'm not above others by any means. Accepting what I'm not, and having a drive to want to help others realize that they are better than they convince themselves they are, helped me come a little out of my awkward shell, but I'm still a wallflower at the loud and boisterous parties.

When it came to considering myself a dominant figure, it wasn't about the things I was told made me better. It was knowing that I had the ability to lead others to be better, and knowing that I wasn't always going to get it right, that let me feel comfortable in my own skin as a dominant.

If you look at your own life, what factors helped shape you into the mindset that now prevails over your sexual life?

(This came to me from two places. One was a discussion I had tonight about elitism, and the other was recent ruminations about my own life and the hats I wear. Sexuality is only one of them, but it became germaine in light of the formerly mentioned discussion, and its considerations in the aftermath.)

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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/10/2015 12:04:22 AM   
DesFIP


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FYI, the head ewe is the oldest female of the line. No brute force there.

This isn't about my sex life. It's my preferred relationship dynamic. It's how I show love, and conversely how I feel loved. I'm less stressed if my partner will make the lion's share of decisions. Taking away the stress of constant decision making allows me to relax.

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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/10/2015 2:55:04 AM   
NookieNotes


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I prefer to lead in my relationships because I'm better at it than anyone I've ever met. From there, I've also found that it is incredibly sexy to have someone give their entire mind over to me in trust.

I have no interest or desire to show brute force. Nor do I have the need. Others may lead, if they show competence. Heck, even if they don't show competence, but I don't want the job (group outings, for example).

As far as being a switch, I would think it is a very easy role. A switch allows a more qualified/dominant individual to lead when they find one, and leads those who are less qualified.

I might be a switch (in the mental area), if I felt I'd ever found someone more competent than I at leading a relationship.

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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/10/2015 5:38:17 AM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

In p(l)ainer English: why does one select a role of following another, or to control another? There's basic urges, everyone has those, but when the chemicals subside and the flush of activity fades, if those interests still exist, what drives them? Is there a drive to establish order through direction or action; is there a conscious or unconscious method driven by an internal motor that creates a perception within us that influences how we interact with, or measures ourselves against, others.

Or maybe make this as simple as it gets: what, in your life, sets you on the path you're on as either a dominant or submissive personality? Does it just feel right? Are you in an environment that encourages your predilections? Do you make a conscious choice or run with your gut? Are you inspired to certain acts by your partner? (And I can't help but wonder, is this all more difficult, or perhaps in a way simpler, for people who bend both ways as a "switch"?)

........If you look at your own life, what factors helped shape you into the mindset that now prevails over your sexual life?



I could probably analyze my childhood and pick out parts of my shaping that must have contributed to my desire for overt dominance in my relationship, but I think that could be said about anyone, for anything, so I don't really spend too much time thinking about that. But...I'm sure it's there.

Past that, I've always appreciated and enjoyed the structure of school. Being taught. Having expectations to meet. Being graded. Being judged. Being pushed to go beyond what I thought I could do or even, being pushed to do something I didn't really want to do at all and then coming out the other side of it feeling fulfilled. I knew this about myself early on.

I generally yield well to a stronger voice of disapproval. I've always gotten on well with the more curmudgeonly types. There's something in my nature that bends well to those types of personalities that others find inflexible or abrasive. I realized this malleability in myself early on, as well, and practiced it with those who were more rigid than I.

I've also always been openly spiritual. Meaning, I've always looked for guidance on how to behave. A moral authority. Someone to confess to. But I found trouble honestly participating in traditional organized religions.

Finally, I tend to overthink. I feel ...relief? More at peace? .... when I don't have to weigh a decision any longer. When I'm told to head in a certain direction, then I can do it, and my head stops spinning. I know this is not uncommon. I'm not the first person to say that the most difficult part of any decision is actually deciding. So though I am certainly capable enough, I am certain that a person who enjoys weighing the options and making the decisions is a good counter to someone like myself, who finds it stressful.

I didn't apply the label of "submissive" to myself until my 30's. (Thank you, Google.) And when I did, in retrospect, I was in my infancy. It was all about sex and what excited me. And that's okay, of course, except it didn't fulfill me. Nowadays, I'm still kinky as fuck and my submission does manifest itself in my sexual behavior, but it's so much more about opening my mind and my heart and my soul than I ever thought it would be. I had not a clue, really, that it would bring me to those places.

So for me, the desire for moral guidance has definitely played a role in setting me on this path. If I wasn't already so open to - and desirous of - learning from and being judged by a demanding higher authority (God), then I don't think I would be open to someone tinkering enough with my inner self to direct my choices as much as I am.

I do make conscious choices, every day, to nurture this part of me. I suppose like a woman who prays every day, or one who does meditation every day, this is something I do regularly and that I want to affect every part of me. There are reasons why I do certain things to keep myself in a state of mindfulness of my submission. I have deliberate intent to practice submission. It's the direction I've chosen to grow into. I suppose you could say that it just "feels right," yes. Like an artist might feel when touching brush to canvas, or like a chef's satisfaction at the sizzle of something delicious sliding into melted butter, there are definite surges of "Yes...this feels right; this is what I'm supposed to be doing." And it has almost nil to do with sex.

What's interesting to me is how much differently I would have answered this question five years ago. And five years before that. Or how I will answer it five years from now.

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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/10/2015 6:12:48 AM   
shiftyw


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plenty of factors contributed.

I am ONLY sexual in my submission. Although that was different at the beginning- I found little pleasure in being told what to do in day to day life- and I enjoy making decisions together. I had a miserable d/s relationship that left me hating myself, and hating him. It was full of resent and failure and struggle. By the end of the year and a half we were together, I felt like I wasn't getting any satisfaction- he could cheat, make me clean his apartment when I wanted to go out with my friends, and he was manipulating and minimizing all my feelings. I realize this is not how all D/s relationships work, and it could be better with someone else. But I felt like a square peg in a round hole the whole time. The only enjoyable part of the relationship, and my only motivation to do anything for him, was the possibility we might have kinky sex. I realized- I might just be too goddamn selfish to yield all my power to my partner, all the time.

Realizing that I was not really submissive, except sexually, really was sorta difficult to actually process. I wanted to be "more real" or "more true"- and I didn't feel dominant. And I felt really selfish for wanting something like that and perceiving myself as submissive. I started to feel like that was really undesirable, maybe I wasn't even really into kink at all, and that made me pretty insecure.

But now I'm very happy- I've met and had relationships with several men who like me as I am and that is wonderful. We have really hot sex, all the time, and a successful happy relationship with us in equal positions of power outside the bedroom.

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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/10/2015 7:28:18 AM   
sexyred1


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I never had to analyze why I am into this.

I have known since I was a kid, that sexual submission turned me on and I made sure I had that in my relationships.

However, like shiftyw, I am not submissive in any other respect and believe in equality and shared responsibility in a relationship.

I will say, though, that throughout all my relationships, I never had the ideal situation. Don't get me wrong, I had amazingly great sex and loved all of them, but I don't think I have ever met a man who was my equal or better than me, except for my husband, and he was not Dominant. When I say better, I mean more intelligent with better decision making than myself.

Because of how stressful my career has been, it would have been lovely to have someone else make decisions, but I didn't feel that way with any of them. At least not to the point of them leading anything outside the bedroom.

I have concluded that I more of a bottom, than submissive, and that is fine with me.

Unless I meet someone who inspires me otherwise, that is unlikely to change.


< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 5/10/2015 7:29:12 AM >

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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/10/2015 10:13:14 AM   
dreamlady


Posts: 737
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From: Western MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser
---
In p(l)ainer English: why does one select a role of following another, or to control another? There's basic urges, everyone has those, but when the chemicals subside and the flush of activity fades, if those interests still exist, what drives them? Is there a drive to establish order through direction or action; is there a conscious or unconscious method driven by an internal motor that creates a perception within us that influences how we interact with, or measures ourselves against, others.

Or maybe make this as simple as it gets: what, in your life, sets you on the path you're on as either a dominant or submissive personality? Does it just feel right? Are you in an environment that encourages your predilections? Do you make a conscious choice or run with your gut? Are you inspired to certain acts by your partner? (And I can't help but wonder, is this all more difficult, or perhaps in a way simpler, for people who bend both ways as a "switch"?)
---
When it came to considering myself a dominant figure, it wasn't about the things I was told made me better. It was knowing that I had the ability to lead others to be better, and knowing that I wasn't always going to get it right, that let me feel comfortable in my own skin as a dominant.

If you look at your own life, what factors helped shape you into the mindset that now prevails over your sexual life?
---

If I may make a few general observations. Anybody has the capacity to lead, to take on responsibility for self and others, to step up to the plate or to rise up to the occasion. If this weren't so, the human race would be in a much sorrier state than it is, and would have gone the way of the dinosaur already. Since your topic is framed by the concept of hierarchies, then consider however pecking orders are structured and how few omegas there are in comparison to the rest of whichever in-group. I am not saying that to be "truly" submissive, one must be or act like an omega in relation to everyone else. What I am saying is that an omega would be a follower at the lowest rung of a hierarchy. An omega could have been an ousted alpha leader, although they usually choose to leave the group as a lone renegade, but there are times when an outcast will start at the bottom and work his way back up the social ladder.

By the same token, everybody has the capacity to follow. He or she may not be willing to accept a higher authority than his or her own, but if the conditions are right or in the best interests of self and/or community, a leader must be willing to step aside or else be pushed aside. In that sense, there really are no true eternal Alphas because there will always be some kind of Higher Power which will prevail, even if it is a natural force such as Death. Here, I am not saying that a Dominant must be an Alpha-type personality, merely that any station above an omega can take on a leadership role over others who are "lower" in "rank" or who are willing to acknowledge someone else as ad hoc leader.

Then there are natural-born leaders (and conversely, natural-born followers). Perhaps this is what we mean when we self-identify as being Dominant, submissive, or a switch.

Now, to be specific. I believe that birth order has a tremendous influence on how we get soft-wired to assume positions of leadership or to expect others to assume them instead (as well as parental expectations). Growing up, I had an older brother who could be quite bossy at times. I hated it. I absolutely hated feeling dominated. For a while there, I accepted his authority when I was very young and I welcomed his protection. I found myself wanting to be the one in charge, to make decisions for myself; and in the process of doing that, I discovered that I made a good, capable leader who could inspire others by example and that I enjoyed taking others under my wing. Further, I saw that I made a better leader than most others, that I was decisive, exacting, and fair. My default mode was to act independently when not under another's guidance.

To me, exercising leadership is not about establishing Dominance. Leadership is about being the traffic director or the choreographer of any given group to function as a team by taking the lead; otherwise, we are simply operating independently.

How this ties in with Dominance and submission, is that imo/ime a Dominant seeks someone else to lead and to control, and to be in a position of authority of another/others. A submissive consistently seeks others to lead him or her. A switch tends to want to not give up his or her independence of action, and this is why I identify as a switch, because it is not a pressing need for me to always lead. I actually see the need to Dominate as being dependent upon others to fulfill our needs, and it can be more of an ego-driven impulse than just the expression of natural Dominance. In some respects, when D/s becomes wrapped up in ego aggrandizement, the submissive may not be a natural-born follower so much as an individual with an underdeveloped or insecure ego who seeks to be absolved of personal responsibility by placing responsibility for self in the hands of a more Dominant personality.

Sexuality is another sphere, and I'm not addressing sexual Dominance and sexual submission with my comments above. They could apply, but not necessarily. I happen to make a distinction between sexual D/s and sexual or kinky (BDSM) Topping and kinky (BDSM) bottoming.

DreamLady

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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/10/2015 12:44:37 PM   
LipstickLeuger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

plenty of factors contributed.

I am ONLY sexual in my submission. Although that was different at the beginning- I found little pleasure in being told what to do in day to day life- and I enjoy making decisions together. I had a miserable d/s relationship that left me hating myself, and hating him. It was full of resent and failure and struggle. By the end of the year and a half we were together, I felt like I wasn't getting any satisfaction- he could cheat, make me clean his apartment when I wanted to go out with my friends, and he was manipulating and minimizing all my feelings. I realize this is not how all D/s relationships work, and it could be better with someone else. But I felt like a square peg in a round hole the whole time. The only enjoyable part of the relationship, and my only motivation to do anything for him, was the possibility we might have kinky sex. I realized- I might just be too goddamn selfish to yield all my power to my partner, all the time.

Realizing that I was not really submissive, except sexually, really was sorta difficult to actually process. I wanted to be "more real" or "more true"- and I didn't feel dominant. And I felt really selfish for wanting something like that and perceiving myself as submissive. I started to feel like that was really undesirable, maybe I wasn't even really into kink at all, and that made me pretty insecure.

But now I'm very happy- I've met and had relationships with several men who like me as I am and that is wonderful. We have really hot sex, all the time, and a successful happy relationship with us in equal positions of power outside the bedroom.



This actually sounds amazingly close to what I went through when I figured out that just because I am sexually submissive, it does not mean I am in all aspects of my life. I really struggled with this concept and if it made me somehow weak. I actually am quite assertive if not aggressive at my job, often going toe to toe with others in more powerful positions. I don't back down easily. So, it was a struggle to become comfortable with my sexuality and need for being a Sub in order to be fufilled.

I see you have Feminist in your descriptor, I am one also, do you think that caused us to have more difficulty with making sense of being Submissive? Older Feminist principals often revolve around equal power everywhere, in bed and out. Double for me as I am in a lesbian relationship, and no one wants to use labels these days in the LGBT community. I am blessed that I have a wonderful partner who understands the need for me to give her the power during sex, but elsewhere we are equals.

_____________________________

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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/10/2015 12:59:28 PM   
shiftyw


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Personally, I've never struggled with it- I have always felt feminism is about having choices and the ability to freely choose those things. However- I've run into people on all sides of women's rights with issues with it- which is unfortunate in my opinion.

I think it's fine I choose to submit in the bedroom- it feels right to me personally- but I also think it's fine when a women is dominant in the relationship- my choice of role doesn't have anything to do with hers.

I am a victim of sexual assault- that trips me up a lot more than feminism. I was fully aware of my interest in BDSM before then. But sometimes I have to take a break from BDSM so I can get my head into an ok place again.

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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/10/2015 8:17:46 PM   
DerangedUnit


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In response to OP-

would say my environment definitely encourages it now, but it was usually the opposite.... I seemed to have worked backwards. All the women around me when I was young were incredibly submissive. They believed the word of their husbands was the word of god and didn't care who that word effected... you just had to trust that god(your husband) knew what was best.

I considered that the greatest form of evil and rebelled against everything. That nature of testing everything continued into adulthood and relationships encouraged by the lack of boundaries I saw in those who most claimed to be leaders.

I think I had an idea of what people were supposed to be and let my anger at their inability to be what I saw as valuable guide my decision making. You spend your whole life being preached to. That men are supposed to be this, and that and they aren't.

But there was still that idea, that idea that there is a way this works, a way in which the world makes sense. I got really tired of fighting and avoided people, I've always been most comfortable alone not buying into politics.

Eventually someone found me that didn't try to lie and play games, that didn't pretend to know when he had no clue, and most importantly that set boundaries for himself and refused to cross them. The one person I had met that wouldn't change his mind because "eh if I can do it, might as well"

I gradually stopped fighting, and now I can't see myself starting again. After he's gone I highly doubt I'll find another who could meet my expectations so I won't try. Won't be dominant or submissive, I'll go back to avoiding people.

I don't enjoy "herding" others... I only do it when they block my path. If they try to herd me a headbutt is likely to follow. Left alone to walk in peace I can continue on indefinitely without thinking about another, if someone walks along beside me for a while I might start following them... but it's all a very delicate balance ;)

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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/11/2015 8:09:59 AM   
littleladybug


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

That established, it becomes more interesting (to me, anyhow) to see how the heirarchal establishment is created and sustained in a microculture like "the community". Not just how the dominant role establishes itself over the submisisve one, but how dominants and submissives establish themselves to one another. That led me to a few curious thoughts, and one thing that came from it was to consider how individuals view their own role in comparison to others.


I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the concept of "community" here.

To me, the term "community" connotes at least some commonality among the members. How is "community" being defined here? If we are talking about everyone who self-identifies as "dominant" or "submissive", I don't see it.

I also don't see it as a "hierarchy", in terms of people being ranked one above the other.

With that being said...


quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser
In p(l)ainer English: why does one select a role of following another, or to control another? There's basic urges, everyone has those, but when the chemicals subside and the flush of activity fades, if those interests still exist, what drives them? Is there a drive to establish order through direction or action; is there a conscious or unconscious method driven by an internal motor that creates a perception within us that influences how we interact with, or measures ourselves against, others.


I have given authority to my partner because he has shown himself to be someone who makes good decisions, among other things. I made very conscious decisions about this.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser
Or maybe make this as simple as it gets: what, in your life, sets you on the path you're on as either a dominant or submissive personality? Does it just feel right? Are you in an environment that encourages your predilections? Do you make a conscious choice or run with your gut? Are you inspired to certain acts by your partner? (And I can't help but wonder, is this all more difficult, or perhaps in a way simpler, for people who bend both ways as a "switch"?)


I don't think I have a "submissive personality", and I'm fairly confident that my man would agree with this as well.

If anything, my environment should have fostered exactly the *opposite* of the relationship that I'm in now. Frankly, I spent many years trying to figure it out, and to rationalize my choices. At the end of it, I've simply gone with what has made me the most comfortable-- which is being in a relationship where my partner has final authority.

(As an aside-- there's a reason why I refer to him as "my partner". I don't see him as "better than", "more than", or "superior to" me. Hence, my comment about the use of the word "hierarchy".)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

If you look at your own life, what factors helped shape you into the mindset that now prevails over your sexual life?


This is not about my sexual life. I am my master's slave in all aspects of life.

That being said, I think the biggest external factor that has shaped where I am now in my relationship is what I was taught very early on. Taking out all of the tangential bullshit, I was taught to find relationships that make me happy.



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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/11/2015 5:14:17 PM   
LipstickLeuger


Posts: 101
Joined: 4/29/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

Personally, I've never struggled with it- I have always felt feminism is about having choices and the ability to freely choose those things. However- I've run into people on all sides of women's rights with issues with it- which is unfortunate in my opinion.

I think it's fine I choose to submit in the bedroom- it feels right to me personally- but I also think it's fine when a women is dominant in the relationship- my choice of role doesn't have anything to do with hers.

I am a victim of sexual assault- that trips me up a lot more than feminism. I was fully aware of my interest in BDSM before then. But sometimes I have to take a break from BDSM so I can get my head into an ok place again.



I also agree with your take on Feminism. I live in a conservative area, and we have many who are very vocal about what is 'expected' of Feminists, so I was curious on someone else's thoughts.

Sorry to hear you were assaulted. My wife is also a survivor and that shadow has reached long at times for her, as well.

Much Metta.

_____________________________

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RE: Heirarchal Significance - 5/12/2015 7:37:19 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady

quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser
---
In p(l)ainer English: why does one select a role of following another, or to control another? There's basic urges, everyone has those, but when the chemicals subside and the flush of activity fades, if those interests still exist, what drives them? Is there a drive to establish order through direction or action; is there a conscious or unconscious method driven by an internal motor that creates a perception within us that influences how we interact with, or measures ourselves against, others.

Or maybe make this as simple as it gets: what, in your life, sets you on the path you're on as either a dominant or submissive personality? Does it just feel right? Are you in an environment that encourages your predilections? Do you make a conscious choice or run with your gut? Are you inspired to certain acts by your partner? (And I can't help but wonder, is this all more difficult, or perhaps in a way simpler, for people who bend both ways as a "switch"?)
---
When it came to considering myself a dominant figure, it wasn't about the things I was told made me better. It was knowing that I had the ability to lead others to be better, and knowing that I wasn't always going to get it right, that let me feel comfortable in my own skin as a dominant.

If you look at your own life, what factors helped shape you into the mindset that now prevails over your sexual life?
---

If I may make a few general observations. Anybody has the capacity to lead, to take on responsibility for self and others, to step up to the plate or to rise up to the occasion.

DreamLady



Is like to make a small point. I was once involved with a woman who was pretty well recognized as one of the Foremost authorities in the world on her subject. When I met her she was teaching at Harvard. She ran programs in universities all over the world. Once we were on a vacation. We were on Cyprus, in a condo on the beach. We were, from there, going onto a cruise ship to cruise the Med. It was a small ship and we were allowed to only bring one bag each aboard. So, we both had to consolidate our bags.

When we woke up, I showered and repacked my stuff in about twenty minutes. I then went and sat on the balcony and smoked Cuban cigars while watching the naked girls frolic on the beach below the balcony. I allowed my partner her space to repack her stuff. About three hours later, getting near time for our car to arrive to take us to the ship, I looked in on her. She had all of her stuff spread out throughout the bedroom and nothing packed. So, I went in, hugged her, kissed her on top the head, grabbed one thing, held it up and said, "Go or stay." She smiled and said "Go."

We went, one at a time through every single item, including individual bits of jewelry. When we were through, I made a pile of the "Go" things and pointed out the pile was much larger than the size of her largest bag. Then I went through each "Go" thing one more time with a "Go or Stay."

At the end of the second time through she had a pile she could fit into her bag if she sat on it while I locked it up.

The interesting thing was, her brain. One of the most documented formidable brains in the world was just not capable of that task. It changed nothing about her character or why she was worth loving. In fact, one time I asked her how many languages she spoke and she responded by asking me how I defined a language (fucking scholars). When I gave her my definitions of a languages she told me that by my definition she spoke 36 languages. It seems that she could go to a new country, sit in a market for a day and just listen. After a day she could "get by" in the language and in a week be reasonably fluent. But, as with all people her brain was not all things. Her brain saw so many things she was an absolute delight to be around. But her brain also was completely unaware of some things.

So, could she lead, obviously yes, she ran very high end projects all over the world and was invited to teach at Harvard. But, could she move from the submissive realm to a dominant realm. No, her brain hasn't the first clue about dominance. She was submissive to the core. I personally believe thie dominant/submissive thing is a nature over nurture thing. That's just been my experience.

(in reply to dreamlady)
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