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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/25/2015 10:11:31 AM   
Lucylastic


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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/25/2015 10:15:30 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA



LUcy, when your hate is exposed and then you stomp off in huff I'm pretty sure everyone sees that. I have no intention of keeping score with you. While your statement is wrong, I don't care. I'm mindful of Mark 5:15, Luke 11:33 and so on.

why not get back to the topic
because your "facts" arent.

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/25/2015 10:18:08 AM   
Moderator3


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Please move on. When a thread becomes the focus of an argument from user to user and spreads from thread to thread, I have to ask you all to chill. Take your personal arguments private if you need to, but stop filling the section with it all. Block, ignore, but please temper it.

Thank you

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/25/2015 10:22:23 AM   
Lucylastic


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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/25/2015 5:22:14 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

of course they all have different agendas...and every one of them is some form of collectivism that is at odds with emphasis on, and the freedom of, the individual.

no narrower distinctions were necessary in my post.

if i am talking about animals, I don't have to make distinctions between bears, deer and mice when my point is some trait they all share in common.


So purile.

You havent even got a clue of what freedom is if you think that way. let me remind you it was due to the collectiveness of the ordinary working man that ened up with our Bill of Rights, on which yours is based.

You have tried to denigrate a joyous thread which was voted on by all sections of Irish society into a left vs right issue.

This fact will piss you off royally, pun fully intended. Your revolution gave you more in common with Marxism than you ever dreamt of, it certainly wasnt inline with Conservative thinking of the 1700s.

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/25/2015 5:29:29 PM   
HunterCA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

of course they all have different agendas...and every one of them is some form of collectivism that is at odds with emphasis on, and the freedom of, the individual.

no narrower distinctions were necessary in my post.

if i am talking about animals, I don't have to make distinctions between bears, deer and mice when my point is some trait they all share in common.


So purile.

You havent even got a clue of what freedom is if you think that way. let me remind you it was due to the collectiveness of the ordinary working man that ened up with our Bill of Rights, on which yours is based.

You have tried to denigrate a joyous thread which was voted on by all sections of Irish society into a left vs right issue.

This fact will piss you off royally, pun fully intended. Your revolution gave you more in common with Marxism than you ever dreamt of, it certainly wasnt inline with Conservative thinking of the 1700s.



No, as a matter of fact today's liberal philosophy is much closer to 1700s conservatism. So all things change. And, no, our revolution was not closer to Marxism. I believe, and you may certainly correct me if I'm wrong, that the Europeans don't get that our constitution put the government as a servant to the individual rather than the individual as a collective member of the state.

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/25/2015 5:41:09 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
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Status: offline 		Then you should study the ideals of the Frence Revolution and of Marx.

It has also escaped your attentino that left wing governments in Europe ARE servants to the people. It is called democracy. Our last Government was left wing and de-elected earlier this month for not listening to the voice of the public.

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/25/2015 5:51:13 PM   
HunterCA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Then you should study the ideals of the Frence Revolution and of Marx.

It has also escaped your attentino that left wing governments in Europe ARE servants to the people. It is called democracy. Our last Government was left wing and de-elected earlier this month for not listening to the voice of the public.



With respect, I've seen the "practice" of the French Revolution and Marx. I also note that the French have had something like five constitutions since its revolution in...what was it....1789. So they seem no more happy with the results of their revolution than I would have been.

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 5:32:54 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		The result of the Irish referendum has given new impetus to moves towards marriage equality elsewhere.

Here the Opposition Leader has today announced his intention to introduce a Private Members' Bill to enact marriage equality. Members of the opposition Labour Party will be granted a conscience vote ie they can vote according to their consciences and not the party policy, which supports marriage equality. Nonetheless, the vast majority of Opposition and Independent MPs will support the initiative. Similar moves are afoot in the Senate.

Whether the move is successful or not will depend on the attitude of the ruling Liberal (in US terms conservative) Party and whether it will allow a conscience vote for its members. If it does, the legislation is expected to pass. However right wing PM Abbot has signalled his opposition to marriage equality hasn't weakened, even though he admits to be the "last person" in his family to maintain an anti-marriage equality position. (The PM's sister is a lesbian living in a committed long term relationship with her partner, and a public advocate of marriage equality.)

Here's hoping the waves generated by the Irish referendum become an unstoppable tsunami!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/26/bill-shorten-to-move-private-members-bill-on-marriage-equality



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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 6:36:37 AM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		What do you think of the chances of the private member's bill's success out there, Tweak? I see that the Communications Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, reckons that it's very likely to pass.

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 6:37:50 AM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		"The PM's sister is a lesbian living in a committed long term relationship with her partner, and a public advocate of marriage equality."

Oh dear. How embarrassing for poor Mr Abbott!

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 7:55:44 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

What do you think of the chances of the private member's bill's success out there, Tweak? I see that the Communications Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, reckons that it's very likely to pass.

Very difficult for me to answer that. All the pundits tells us that it depends on whether Abbot's (conservative) party allows a conscience vote - in which case it will pass - or Abbot insists on adhering to conservative party policy - in which case it will fail. So it depends on whether supporters of marriage equality in the conservatives can muster enough support in the parliamentary party to force a conscience vote. I really don't know how the numbers will fall - my instincts tell me relying on the conservatives for a progressive measure is a dubious proposition. But Turnbull is in a far better position than me to make an assessment of that, so perhaps I should be a tad more optimistic than I feel. Perhaps the tories are shocked by the overwhelming majority in favour of marriage equality in the Irish referendum

There is a growing recognition that marriage equality is inevitable sooner or later. A lot of Aussies are quite shocked that conservative Catholic Ireland is ahead of us in this area of human rights. Opinion polls put >60% of voters in favour of marriage equality ... and growing. So right now it's a rearguard action by opponents but in say 5 years time marriage equality is a certainty. Who knows - it may be a lot less than 5 years!

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/26/2015 8:06:49 AM >

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 8:18:12 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		The church had better start taking notice of the changing views, not only in Ireland but the world, on homosexuality and gay marriage or it will loose its youth.

I am encouraged by the new Pope and believe that with the passing of leadership from the old Cardinal guard to the younger more inclusive group there will be true change in the church.

I just hope this change comes quickly enough for the church to survive.

Butch

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 8:49:18 AM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		Did you see the remarks by the Arch-bishop of Dublin who said that the Church needed a "reality check" following the Irish referendum?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/24/ireland-same-sex-marriage-dublin-archbishop-catholic-church-needs-reality-check



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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 9:21:39 AM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

of course they all have different agendas...and every one of them is some form of collectivism that is at odds with emphasis on, and the freedom of, the individual.

no narrower distinctions were necessary in my post.

if i am talking about animals, I don't have to make distinctions between bears, deer and mice when my point is some trait they all share in common.


So purile.

You havent even got a clue of what freedom is if you think that way. let me remind you it was due to the collectiveness of the ordinary working man that ened up with our Bill of Rights, on which yours is based.

You have tried to denigrate a joyous thread which was voted on by all sections of Irish society into a left vs right issue.

This fact will piss you off royally, pun fully intended. Your revolution gave you more in common with Marxism than you ever dreamt of, it certainly wasnt inline with Conservative thinking of the 1700s.



it sounds like you don't know leftists have their own definition of freedom that differs greatly from conservatives and especially libertarians. so again, instead of being presumptuous, you might ask how I understand "freedom."

that said:

quote:

"COLLECTIVISM: Collectivism is defined as the theory and practice that makes some sort of group rather than the individual the fundamental unit of political, social, and economic concern. In theory, collectivists insist that the claims of groups, associations, or the state must normally supersede the claims of individuals." -- Stephen Grabill and Gregory M. A. Gronbacher,


quote:

"collectivism ... treats society as if it were a super-organism existing over and above its individual members, and which takes the collective in some form (e.g., tribe, race, or state) to be the primary unit of reality and standard of value." -- Prof. Fred D. Miller


quote:

"Collectivism means the subjugation of the individual to a group -- whether to a race, class or state does not matter. Collectivism holds that man must be chained to collective action and collective thought for the sake of what is called 'the common good'." -- Ayn Rand,


quote:

"Collectivism is the doctrine that the social collective -- called society, the people, the state, etc. -- has rights, needs, or moral authority above and apart from the individuals who comprise it. We hear this idea continually championed in such familiar platitudes as 'the needs of the people take precedence over the rights of the individual,' 'production for people, not profits,' and 'the common good.' “Collectivism often sounds humane because it stresses the importance of human needs. In reality, it is little more than a rationalization for sacrificing you and me to the desires of others." -- Jarret B. Wollstein in The Causes of Aggression,


If those aren’t commonalities between progressives/liberals/socialists/communists, then the sky isnt blue.

and for lots more:

http://freedomkeys.com/collectivism.htm

Here’s someone else who is saying the same thing, except for his common ground is “power and control” (which is also true)

quote:

Socialists, Marxists, Communists, Liberals and Progressives…Same animals, same pack!


(although, maybe he is “puerile” too?)

http://joeforamerica.com/2013/11/socialists-marxists-communists-liberals-progressivessame-animals-pack/

or try bill whittle:

http://americaswatchtower.com/2014/10/10/firewall-with-bill-whittle-youre-not-a-liberal/

if you have an actual argument as to how progressives/liberals/socialists/communists are not all collectivists, you might want to share that rather than changing the subject, or calling me puerile.

or you can just keep "celebrating the joyous occasion."






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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 9:22:20 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The church had better start taking notice of the changing views, not only in Ireland but the world, on homosexuality and gay marriage or it will loose its youth.

I am encouraged by the new Pope and believe that with the passing of leadership from the old Cardinal guard to the younger more inclusive group there will be true change in the church.

I just hope this change comes quickly enough for the church to survive.

Butch



Theres no going back. The church, religion, have been steadily dying in the West for a long time. The way people see it now, a growing number of them, its kinda like the Mad Max movies. There is no God watching, so do anything you want, literally anything.

Just dont get caught (if its something illegal) and youre fine (Hellooooo Baltimore)

Islamism, ISIS and their ilk seems to be the only religious movement that is alive and flourishing and gaining young people rather than losing them. Wont see gay marriage in any of their strongholds any time soon either

The Mormons also seem to be growing perhaps, but to a lesser extent. Doubt that will last though

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 10:22:56 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I recall there was a nation one time that would be the first to do something, because it was the right thing to do. Then the United States of America got conservatives and libertarians who fucked everything up. And keep everything as fucked up as possible, so nothing useful can get done. Of the nation's states, only fourteen remain 'hard core' anti-gay marriage; including that 'free' state known as Texas. So here in the 'States, we can fairly and rightly blame our nation not getting the title 'first nation to all gay marriage' on conservatives and libertarians (you know, the people constantly bitching about freedoms....).

However....

Congrats to Ireland, may you enjoy many good and happy moments in your future!


So, joether... If "liberals" came first... And those evil, hated conservatives are such a recent development...

Why didnt we have all of these wedge issues settled back in the 1700s. And why werent we a Marxists dictatorship from the very beginning.

?

Just curious


Back in the late 18th century the 'modern day conservative' would have been a Tory. Someone that wants to keep the King's government in place. The idea of freedoms from the monarchy and Christianity was just to much for some of them to handle.

Again, this nation suffered 'modern day conservative' as the righ and influential Southerns as the American Civil War broke out. Upset that you can not treat slaves like objects; beating, raping, and murdering them as you pleased.

Just before WW2 broke out in America, many 'modern day conservatives' were called 'Isolationists'. They wanted to keep America out of the conflicts in Europe and the Pacific. Only the Japaneses didn't think that was 'right'.

In Vietnam, 'modern day conservatives' wanted to keep the war going, because the evil communism was on the march through Southeast Asia.

Both Iraq conflicts involved the fear of something evil and horrible attacking the nation. That if we fought them 'over there' we would be 'OK'. The 'modern day conservative' would not listen to reason or wisdom; "Blood for the Blood God!".

To "...settle wedge issues..." as you call them would be to do something very un-liberty-like. That would be changing people's viewpoints and though processes to adhere to an ideology. Right now the media on the right are doing an amazing good and impressive job of converting conservatives and libertarians to a thought process. One that involves dumbing down their minds, accepting things without question, and following without distraction from anyone else. Makes for an obedient, loyal, mindless, servant. One that will not disrupt their Master's wishes or corporate profits; since some of it will 'Trickle Down', right?

You view communism and all other forms of government as corrupted and broken; while giving your 'view' on America's actual government form and capitalism high praise. Yes, those have been not just conditioned into your mind, but hardwired as a belief. You can not handle someone stating that every form of government can be corrupted. That every economic thought process has many flaws, or the nature of those flaws is equally mighty. Nor can you handle the notion that at current, there are many forms of government at work within the nation right now (big and small)? That there are each of many different types of economic processes operating right now?

Nope.

Likewise, its amusing to watch the Christians try to push Capitalism like a drug onto the masses. The fatal flaw of capitalism is greed. So the pseudo-Christians have convince themselves that allying with the Devil will draw more to Christianity then away. Except the Devil corrupts and distorts everything. Those individuals whom once would have understood the meeting of Luke 6:31, now do quite the opposite. They have elevated a vile creature like Mike Huckabee, whom forgives someone that molested underage girls (because the guy is a 'christian'); but still vilifies Bill Clinton because he got some head....

We hear often that conservatives demand their rights. How about we place them and you into a classroom. Place a couple of sheets of paper and some pencils with you. Tell you to list off all the important parts of each of the first ten amendments (which is generous seeing as there are twenty-seven in total). And see how many you and they, get right. I predict most would not get the 2nd and 10th correct, let alone the 5th, 6th, or 8th. You have been told and conditioned what to think as 'important', rather than understanding the full concept as a free, rational, thinking individual. Why do you think I school you and others on here with the ACA on a routine basis? You were told what to think and regurgitate, I read the fucking law until I understood it enough to teach it!

If you reply, please, 'up' your game.....

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 1:14:46 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I did... he just said his world as a child was different than today... will get used to it or look for another job.

Butch

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 1:28:00 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Theres no going back. The church, religion, have been steadily dying in the West for a long time. The way people see it now, a growing number of them, its kinda like the Mad Max movies. There is no God watching, so do anything you want, literally anything


Sanity you may be right about religion in general. Many only survived because of the isolation of its youth in their upbringing. The internet has put a stop to this isolation and religion will have to adapt or perish.

The Muslim religion is flourishing but I believe this is not so much about a belief as it is a rebellion of the disfranchised on this earth and an attack on old outmoded values and lifestyles. It will not last long and the faith of Islam will go the way of other religions... only faster as the youth realize the absurdity of its radical teachings.

I am a person of faith but the way forward is not to deny the facts of nature or human nature but embrace them as just another discovery of the miracle of life and its source as opposed to oblivion and along with the infinity of space and time.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/26/2015 1:43:42 PM >

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RE: Oscar Wilde's revenge: Ireland votes Yes to Marriag... - 5/26/2015 1:46:46 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

In a stunning result, Ireland's voters have approved a Constitutional Amendment that removes the insistence that marriage must be between a woman and a man, and made marriage gender-neutral. Early returns indicate that up to 70% of the electorate voted Yes! for marriage equality.

This result will be a huge boost towards marriage equality everywhere, as it is the first time that a majority of voters have specifically voted marriage equality in anywhere. That this happened in Ireland, for so long a quasi-theocratic conservative Catholic country that didn't have divorce until 20 years ago, is an indication of the way the wind is blowing in favour of marriage equality across the Western world.
http://www.theguardian.com/global/live/2015/may/23/counting-underway-for-irelands-referendum-on-marriage-equality

Well done Ireland - take a bow!




Now if they could just fix their divorce laws.

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