RE: Was This A Hate Crime?

RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (Full Version)

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HunterCA -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 9:48:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/02/13/3643845/jury-finds-both-hate-crime-defendants.html A fairly open & shut assault case, but even with racial slurs during the altercation and other proof of racial bias, the Feds couldn't get a guilty verdict on the hate crime charges. Indeed. So there are quite a few hurdles, some legal, some that may be completely extraneous, like the local (anti-Fed) prejudices as is suggested in this case, that need to be cleared before any thought of a hate crime loading to the sentence becomes a possibility. This seems to confirm all the claims about thought crimes from the far Right etc are a tad hysterical. Well, I would have to admit that you're probably the expert on hysterical.

BamaD -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 10:15:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV Or we could stick to facts & precedence. Like http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blakely_v._Washington Blakely v. Washington, 542 U.S. 296 (2004), held that, in the context of mandatory sentencing guidelines under state law, the Sixth Amendment right to a jury trial prohibited judges from enhancing criminal sentences based on facts other than those decided by the jury or admitted by the defendant. Three years ago we had a carjacking/murder here. They gunned a man down in front of his three year old to steal his truck. The jury said life. The judge said that was unreasonable under the circumstances and gave them death. His sentence stood.

BamaD -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 10:20:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/02/13/3643845/jury-finds-both-hate-crime-defendants.html A fairly open & shut assault case, but even with racial slurs during the altercation and other proof of racial bias, the Feds couldn't get a guilty verdict on the hate crime charges. Indeed. So there are quite a few hurdles, some legal, some that may be completely extraneous, like the local (anti-Fed) prejudices as is suggested in this case, that need to be cleared before any thought of a hate crime loading to the sentence becomes a possibility. This seems to confirm all the claims about thought crimes from the far Right etc are a tad hysterical. Rather, the case brings to light some more of the issues with hate crime laws. A black person gets into a bar fight in Boise, the knee jerk reaction on the part of the feds is, it has to be a hate crime because of the city the bar fight occurred in, and the skin color of one of the drunks. So the feds come in, and try to prosecute it as a hate crime. Try to give a guy 10 years in a federal pen for getting in a bar fight, because his skin is white... The jury said, and those who attended the trial agreed, that there was no way the bar fight was a hate crime. The feds were out of their fucking minds. Yet in D.C., where is the federal prosecutor who should be looking into the strong possibility that the torture and gruesome murder of a white family by a black man is a hate crime? Hate crime laws appear to make ones skin color a factor in weighing guilt, which is an injustice. I disagree with the idea of thought crimes / hate crimes laws, but if theyre going to be on the books they really need to be prosecuted evenly across the board A few years back a black man, in the midwest, walked into a McDonald's and started shooting people. He told the black people to relax, he was only shooting white people. This was ruled not to be a hate crime. This is one of the many problems with hate crime laws. Enforcement is erratic and subjective.

JVoV -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 12:06:33 PM)
Bama, that's the case for many laws.

JVoV -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 12:07:52 PM)
Don't fuck with a dude's beard though. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2639605

Politesub53 -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 12:16:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HunterCA So, you really don't have any links? Who signed hate crimess into Texan law ? (do you need a reminder as to why it came about ?) Was it: A) Me B) Gandhi C) Obama D) Rick Perry

BamaD -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 12:18:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV Bama, that's the case for many laws. But with hate laws it is worse. Start with the widely held idea that blacks can't be racist.

Politesub53 -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 12:19:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 I dont get your point. It seems obvious to me all prosecutions for hate crime need to establish intent. That is as true here in the UK as it is in the US. That kinda was the point. More importantly, a prosecutor must be able to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, for a jury to return a guilty verdict. What I don't know is if these can be separate charges or not, for the jury to decide. Risking a murder conviction because of overzealous prosecution seems irresponsible, if it's an all-or-nothing. Surely less irresponsible than always going for the easiest crimes to prosecute ?

JVoV -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 1:05:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Surely less irresponsible than always going for the easiest crimes to prosecute ? There can never be proper justice given by the courts in cases like these. No punishment horrible enough to fit the crime, even if we allowed cruel & unusual punishments. Nothing that can undo any of the suffering the family endured. The horrific nature of the murders will motivate the prosecution to put forth the absolute best case that it can, and seek the absolute highest charge & sentence that the jurisdiction will allow. No. I don't think it irresponsible to not charge the defendant(s) with a crime that cannot be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, and risk these bastards going free. Ideally, the hate crime designation would come into play in the sentencing phase, and not be a part of the actual murder charge. Prosecutors could first prove the actual crime during trial, then use racial bias as reason to argue for a stiffer sentence, such as the death penalty where available.

HunterCA -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 1:05:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: HunterCA So, you really don't have any links? Who signed hate crimess into Texan law ? (do you need a reminder as to why it came about ?) Was it: A) Me B) Gandhi C) Obama D) Rick Perry Show me a link.

HunterCA -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 1:16:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HunterCA quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: HunterCA So, you really don't have any links? Who signed hate crimess into Texan law ? (do you need a reminder as to why it came about ?) Was it: A) Me B) Gandhi C) Obama D) Rick Perry Show me a link. Not only that, as I've previously said, show he promoted, not just signed for political reason. I can show you a ton of things here in California that govenor moonbeam signs that could arguably be a conservative philosophy. It doesn't make moonbeam ideologically in tune with it. So show me his speech when he signed it where he says he'd been pushing the much needed bill.

JVoV -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 1:16:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: HunterCA So, you really don't have any links? Who signed hate crimess into Texan law ? (do you need a reminder as to why it came about ?) Was it: A) Me B) Gandhi C) Obama D) Rick Perry I'll take E) Ann Richards http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/elections/ref/ref101100hate.htm The discussion of hate-crime legislation may have left voters more confused than enlightened. Gore, referring to a black man who was dragged to his death by three white men, said, "You know James Byrd was singled out because of his race, in Texas. And other Americans have been singled out because of their race or, or ethnicity. And that's why I think that we can embody our values by passing a hate crimes law." Bush said, "We got one in Texas, and guess what? The three men who murdered James Byrd, guess what's going to happen to them? They're going to be put to death... It's going to be hard to punish them any worse after they get put to death....We're happy with our laws on our books." Then-Governor Ann Richards (D) signed Texas's hate-crimes law in 1993.

BamaD -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 1:17:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Surely less irresponsible than always going for the easiest crimes to prosecute ? There can never be proper justice given by the courts in cases like these. No punishment horrible enough to fit the crime, even if we allowed cruel & unusual punishments. Nothing that can undo any of the suffering the family endured. The horrific nature of the murders will motivate the prosecution to put forth the absolute best case that it can, and seek the absolute highest charge & sentence that the jurisdiction will allow. No. I don't think it irresponsible to not charge the defendant(s) with a crime that cannot be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, and risk these bastards going free. Ideally, the hate crime designation would come into play in the sentencing phase, and not be a part of the actual murder charge. Prosecutors could first prove the actual crime during trial, then use racial bias as reason to argue for a stiffer sentence, such as the death penalty where available. Looks like they have this guy and who ever helped him dead to rights. And as I said earlier that will provide the maximum sentence allowed in DC. Since it will add nothing why muddy the waters. If the hate crime isn't part of the trial how can they be sentenced for a crime they haven't been convicted of. Hate crime isn't a special circumstance, it is a special law providing some people with more protection than others.

mnottertail -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 1:17:47 PM)
people are not responsible for your ignorance of widely reported realities you know. https://www.google.com/search?q=most+conservative+prime+minister+in+english+history&rlz=1C1KMZB_enUS510US510&oq=most+conservative+prime+minister+in+english+history&aqs=chrome..69i57.10625j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=rick+perry+signs+hate+crime+legislation I bet that even made dailycaller.

HunterCA -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 1:21:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: HunterCA So, you really don't have any links? Who signed hate crimess into Texan law ? (do you need a reminder as to why it came about ?) Was it: A) Me B) Gandhi C) Obama D) Rick Perry I'll take E) Ann Richards http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/elections/ref/ref101100hate.htm The discussion of hate-crime legislation may have left voters more confused than enlightened. Gore, referring to a black man who was dragged to his death by three white men, said, "You know James Byrd was singled out because of his race, in Texas. And other Americans have been singled out because of their race or, or ethnicity. And that's why I think that we can embody our values by passing a hate crimes law." Bush said, "We got one in Texas, and guess what? The three men who murdered James Byrd, guess what's going to happen to them? They're going to be put to death... It's going to be hard to punish them any worse after they get put to death....We're happy with our laws on our books." Then-Governor Ann Richards (D) signed Texas's hate-crimes law in 1993. I would have guessed that. But PS is blowing smoke on this and should be able to admit it.

JVoV -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 1:38:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Looks like they have this guy and who ever helped him dead to rights. And as I said earlier that will provide the maximum sentence allowed in DC. Since it will add nothing why muddy the waters. If the hate crime isn't part of the trial how can they be sentenced for a crime they haven't been convicted of. Hate crime isn't a special circumstance, it is a special law providing some people with more protection than others. Then it should be a separate charge, or a different process for the jury to decide.

BamaD -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 1:45:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: HunterCA So, you really don't have any links? Who signed hate crimess into Texan law ? (do you need a reminder as to why it came about ?) Was it: A) Me B) Gandhi C) Obama D) Rick Perry I'll take E) Ann Richards http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/elections/ref/ref101100hate.htm The discussion of hate-crime legislation may have left voters more confused than enlightened. Gore, referring to a black man who was dragged to his death by three white men, said, "You know James Byrd was singled out because of his race, in Texas. And other Americans have been singled out because of their race or, or ethnicity. And that's why I think that we can embody our values by passing a hate crimes law." Bush said, "We got one in Texas, and guess what? The three men who murdered James Byrd, guess what's going to happen to them? They're going to be put to death... It's going to be hard to punish them any worse after they get put to death....We're happy with our laws on our books." Then-Governor Ann Richards (D) signed Texas's hate-crimes law in 1993. What is your point, 5 years means nothing when facing the death penalty. It was enacted in 2001, that would mean Rick Perry. Your post confirms that Texas didn't have one during the 2000 debates and the full name is the James Byrd hate crimes act. This also gives a clue as to why he signed it. It was driven by the need to "do something.

JVoV -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 2:07:05 PM)
quote: It's going to be hard to punish them any worse after they get put to death.... Dubbya. The James Byrd hate crimes act, catchy name and all, updated the law to name specific biases and to conform to the Supreme Court ruling that the jury must decide whether a hate crime or not. (Apprendi v New Jersey, 2000)

Politesub53 -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 4:13:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HunterCA quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: HunterCA So, you really don't have any links? Who signed hate crimess into Texan law ? (do you need a reminder as to why it came about ?) Was it: A) Me B) Gandhi C) Obama D) Rick Perry Show me a link. Fuck you, stop trolling, get of your fat arse and look for yourself. Alternatively google Texas hate Crime law. [8\|]

Lucylastic -> RE: Was This A Hate Crime? (5/27/2015 4:23:43 PM)
http://www.texasmonthly.com/daily-post/texas-theres-no-such-thing-transgender-hate-crime Handy dandy lil link to do with the "progress"

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