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LipstickLeuger -> Founding Fathers (6/1/2015 5:56:52 PM)

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/04/35-founding-father-quotes-conservative-christians-will-hate/




Interesting, discuss...........




HunterCA -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/1/2015 6:39:21 PM)

I wonder why the left always assumes the right will hate? I, actually, find hate more exercised toward us by the left.




CreativeDominant -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/1/2015 6:51:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LipstickLeuger

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/04/35-founding-father-quotes-conservative-christians-will-haete

Interesting, discuss...........
I'm a conservative Christian. I have no problem dealing with those quotes... believing them. As a matter of fact, the people I see having problems with it ARE those more fundamental in their religious practice. But that's certainly not every Christian.




Real0ne -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 1:15:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LipstickLeuger

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/04/35-founding-father-quotes-conservative-christians-will-hate/




Interesting, discuss...........


quote:

“We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.”

State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights.


its all a ruse.

I recall several years ago, a case, when a couple from the ME made the mistake of believing the constitution was real, by exercising their reserved right of "freedom of their religion", by following through with age old religion traditions, and they were both imprisoned in the land of the free. Their daughter committed audultery in which the punishment was death by stoning. The parents stoned their daughter.

My, yours or anyone elses opinions on the tradition are irellevant, either those grandiose noble words in the constitution are true or they are not.

The state imposed the state religion upon them.

How about that?

Of course ALL people can also be said to have 'equal liberty' even if they are all confined in prison, can they not?

The government we have in the US is a near perfect carbon copy of English law at that time. England had bishops on staff sitting and ruling concurrently with the king, hence the foundation of the core law could be said to christian "in substance' though they carry no specific christian title.

http://www.heritage.org/research/lecture/2011/06/did-america-have-a-christian-founding

people seem to be suggesting that because a 'title' is stripped or non-existent neither does the the substance exist.










Kirata -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 2:18:17 AM)


There is of course the detail that freedom of religion is freedom of conscience, not conduct; freedom to believe as you will, not to act as you will.

K.




DaddySatyr -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 3:39:36 AM)


I'm no conservative, but I am a Christian. Nothing in those quotes invoked any hate in me but I did find one that speaks to the seeming leftist hate of any religion:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Founding Father George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792

2. “Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”



"I was in hopes that enlightened and liberal policy ..." Today's "enlightened liberals" seem hell-bent (pun intended) on destroying any remnant of religion (except, of course, that of Islam, the religion as peaceful as the left's ideological politicking).



Michael




bounty44 -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 4:39:20 AM)

in a slightly different direction:

quote:

The separation of church and state is one of the cornerstones of America’s foundation. Conservative Christian fundamentalists have sought to crush this cornerstone in the hopes of establishing Christianity as the state religion, an action that would threaten the rest of the foundation that makes up the Constitution.


...the entire premise of the piece simply isn't true. there is no one I know who wants to make Christianity the state religion and I have never read anything in conservative Christian press to that effect either.

id put forth that the article is an effort to quash mere Christian expression in the public square under the guise of the liberal misunderstanding of the "separation of church and state."




CreativeDominant -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 4:58:05 AM)

And then, theres this one (bold parts are my doing):

8. “I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802

Hmmm...seems to me that if a baker says "I will not do a gay wedding cake...my religion does not support gay marriage", he is exercising his right to "the free exercise thereof". And there's not supposed to be a law against that, is there?




DaddySatyr -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 5:01:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

id put forth that the article is an effort to quash mere Christian expression in the public square under the guise of the liberal misunderstanding of the "separation of church and state."



I LOVE that oft misused phrase! When someone tells me that something "violates the separation of church and state", I ask: "So, separation of church and state is a law ?" and I am frequently told: "Yes".

"In those exact words?"

"Yes"

Hmmmm ...

quote:


"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ..."



The very amendment the people have misrepresented to argue that "religion has no place in our society" seems to protect my right to scream it from the rooftops!



Michael




bounty44 -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 5:02:43 AM)

quote:

These are hardly the words of men who allegedly believed that America should be a Christian nation governed by the Bible as conservatives constantly claim.


and by contrast, which the author conveniently left out:

“It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.” – George Washington

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.” – George Washington

"True religion affords to government its surest support. – George Washington

"The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament. – Samuel Adams

Congress printed a Bible for America and said: “The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.” –

United States Congress 1782 Congress passed this resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.” – United States Congress 1782

"The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity. – John Adams

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. – John Adams Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – John Adams

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. – John Jay -

Let the children…be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. – Benjamin Rush

"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion… – Benjamin Rush

"The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial -

“We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.” – James Madison

“Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government” – James Madison

“Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.” – James Madison -

and from folks later than the "founding"

“I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.” – Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Harvard Speech, 1829.

Education is useless without the Bible. The Bible was America’s basic text book in all fields. God’s Word, contained in the Bible, has furnished all necessary rules to direct our conduct. – Noah Webster -

“[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.” – Andrew Jackson

"In regards to this great Book [the Bible], I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it. – Abraham Lincoln

I am busily engaged in study of the Bible. – Abraham Lincoln -

http://www.usachristianministries.com/us-history-quotes-about-god-and-the-bible/

quotes and sentiments like that could go on for pages and pages...

if anyone is interested:

david barton does a thorough job of it in his "The Myth of Separation: What Is the Correct Relationship Between Church and State?"




DaddySatyr -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 5:08:23 AM)


For the love of God, would you please stop giving the other side of the story that God-haters wish to omit?

You're really fucking up a beautiful steam-rolling of 80% of the population, ye know.



Michael




bounty44 -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 6:05:44 AM)

laughs...

speaking of god haters---I posted this awhile ago but it seems appropriate again:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUJE9YfsbNQ

or

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/09/05/jerusalem_and_god_get_booed_at_dem_convention.html

that aside for a moment, there is some insight here as to one reason why (though i think the desire to control and rule is the greatest one) leftists support big government----they cannot for the life of them believe that people will help others out of the love of god in their hearts.




mnottertail -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 7:22:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

These are hardly the words of men who allegedly believed that America should be a Christian nation governed by the Bible as conservatives constantly claim.


and by contrast, which the author conveniently left out:

“It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.” – George Washington

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.” – George Washington

"True religion affords to government its surest support. – George Washington

"The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament. – Samuel Adams

Congress printed a Bible for America and said: “The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.” –

United States Congress 1782 Congress passed this resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.” – United States Congress 1782

"The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity. – John Adams

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. – John Adams Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – John Adams

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. – John Jay -

Let the children…be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. – Benjamin Rush

"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion… – Benjamin Rush

"The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial -

“We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.” – James Madison

“Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government” – James Madison

“Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.” – James Madison -

and from folks later than the "founding"

“I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.” – Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Harvard Speech, 1829.

Education is useless without the Bible. The Bible was America’s basic text book in all fields. God’s Word, contained in the Bible, has furnished all necessary rules to direct our conduct. – Noah Webster -

“[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.” – Andrew Jackson

"In regards to this great Book [the Bible], I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it. – Abraham Lincoln

I am busily engaged in study of the Bible. – Abraham Lincoln -

http://www.usachristianministries.com/us-history-quotes-about-god-and-the-bible/

quotes and sentiments like that could go on for pages and pages...

if anyone is interested:

david barton does a thorough job of it in his "The Myth of Separation: What Is the Correct Relationship Between Church and State?"




He conveniently (poor choice of words, but did not bother with it because it has no bearing on this) left it out, because these guys personal beliefs were not the nation of United States.




Kirata -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 7:36:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

I posted this awhile ago but it seems appropriate again:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUJE9YfsbNQ

This one's better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM

K.





HunterCA -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 7:59:45 AM)

I went away for one nights sleep and look what you've all done. Your hate is despicable. BTW Kirata, I'm bookmarking that Bob Hope YouTube




DaddySatyr -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 11:28:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

I went away for one nights sleep and look what you've all done. Your hate is despicable. BTW Kirata, I'm bookmarking that Bob Hope YouTube



Maybe you'll learn your lesson about requiring more than three hours of sleep, every twenty-four. That'll teach you.



Michael




Aylee -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 1:43:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

I wonder why the left always assumes the right will hate? I, actually, find hate more exercised toward us by the left.


I am still trying to wrap my head around getting emotionally involved with a quote. I understand things "speaking to you" or "making you think," but to have a negative visceral reaction? Nah. I really just do not see it happening.




Sanity -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 1:53:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

I wonder why the left always assumes the right will hate? I, actually, find hate more exercised toward us by the left.


Theyre projecting their own mindsets onto those around them




Arturas -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 2:26:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LipstickLeuger

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/04/35-founding-father-quotes-conservative-christians-will-hate/




Interesting, discuss...........


The quotations are not contrary to any belief held by any Christian I know. The author's preface is a personal view of Christian religion unsupported by any of the quotations. This preface is so:

The separation of church and state is one of the cornerstones of America’s foundation. Conservative Christian fundamentalists have sought to crush this cornerstone in the hopes of establishing Christianity as the state religion, an action that would threaten the rest of the foundation that makes up the Constitution. These conservatives contend that the Founding Fathers dreamed of making America a Christian state at the expense of those who practice other religions or none at all.

I know of no American Christian Religion that has attempted to "crush" the cornerstone of seperation of church and state". In fact, the pilgrims came here to practice their religion without control by government. In fact, the "Christian Religion" supports this seperation as this prevents the Government from interferring with the practice of Christian and any other religion.

No Conservatives think the Founding Fathers were trying to make America a "Christian state'.

I suppose if some uninformed persons thought this position were true then they might actively lobby against the Constitutional protection the Church enjoys from Government influence and instead lobby for control of the Church by the Government thereby making the Church a State Religion focused on leading those seeking God's word to instead focus on social reengineering using the Church.




cloudboy -> RE: Founding Fathers (6/2/2015 2:27:17 PM)


Here's my favorite:


20. “When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it’s a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
~Founding Father Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780





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