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RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/5/2015 12:52:10 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Omg! That quintessentially American icon - Disney World - is acting in an un-American way! Seems like not even Disney's Mum-and-apple-pie-as-American-as you-can-get image is going to be allowed to stand between the company and a cheap dollar. If they have to dump American workers and import foreigners to do their jobs then so be it.

As Lucy said that's capitalism in all its finery folks. Gotta love it!


Pretty typical of a rabid leftist to try to claim that one such company or incident is an indictment of all capitalism, American values etc

Havent seen you chime in on the "Marxism at work" thread yet though, where we see the devastating results when an entire country is ravaged by your preferred (though serially failed) alternative to capitalism


Capitalism at its core (which is also its fatal flaw) is all about greed. To try to be ignorant of such with your rant serves to show just how intellectually dishonest you can be on a topic.....

This country nearly suffered a second grand economic depression in 2007-2009. The leading and trailing indicators were showing it as a very likely possibility. The problem with capitalism is 'The Ends justify the Means' when there is not a rule or judge to keep things honest and fair. I enjoy each time you try to push 'Marxism' as evil, but, completely ignore how evil capitalism as a basic economic system can be the same, on the same group of people. What makes a good economic system is one that enjoys long and strong bull markets, with very short and mild bear markets. No one economic principle to date (and there are many of them) has successfully created this process to work each and every time.




(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/5/2015 12:56:51 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Omg! That quintessentially American icon - Disney World - is acting in an un-American way! Seems like not even Disney's Mum-and-apple-pie-as-American-as you-can-get image is going to be allowed to stand between the company and a cheap dollar. If they have to dump American workers and import foreigners to do their jobs then so be it.

As Lucy said that's capitalism in all its finery folks. Gotta love it!


Pretty typical of a rabid leftist to try to claim that one such company or incident is an indictment of all capitalism, American values etc

Havent seen you chime in on the "Marxism at work" thread yet though, where we see the devastating results when an entire country is ravaged by your preferred (though serially failed) alternative to capitalism


Capitalism at its core (which is also its fatal flaw) is all about greed. To try to be ignorant of such with your rant serves to show just how intellectually dishonest you can be on a topic.....

This country nearly suffered a second grand economic depression in 2007-2009. The leading and trailing indicators were showing it as a very likely possibility. The problem with capitalism is 'The Ends justify the Means' when there is not a rule or judge to keep things honest and fair. I enjoy each time you try to push 'Marxism' as evil, but, completely ignore how evil capitalism as a basic economic system can be the same, on the same group of people. What makes a good economic system is one that enjoys long and strong bull markets, with very short and mild bear markets. No one economic principle to date (and there are many of them) has successfully created this process to work each and every time.







What BS. So, a kid graduates from high school and figures out he wants to marry and have kids and the best way he/she can support them is to go to college and get a technical degree. And you define this as greed. BS, in your mind only. Capitalism is a free market where everyone can make the best decision for themselves, their family and their community. You just don't like the idea of people being freely able to make decisions without direction from big government.

< Message edited by HunterCA -- 6/5/2015 12:57:28 PM >

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/5/2015 1:07:53 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

H1B visas are only supposed to be for where an employer can't find an American worker. They do that shit to programmers in the Silicon Valley as well. Now, to me, a union should be looking into that.


Most programmers are not union. I have trained indian H1Bs that dont know the first thing about programming many times over the years, on the way out the door.


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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/5/2015 8:41:04 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		H1B workers are not supposed to replace American workers -- and its rare I've ever read such a story. Usually Americans companies just ship this kind of shit overseas as Chainsaw Al Dunlop did with Sunbeam.

It doesn't surprise me that Ken lives in fear of immigration and would flag such a story. Like him, I don't like what the mouse did, but the greater story is how Immigration has propelled the USA economically for over 150 years.

I might add that H1B workers are temporary workers, and not immigrants.

Last Point: any employer hiring H1B works must post a notice of its intention to do so in a conspicuous place so that existing employees can see what the employer is doing and if they want to file a complaint with the US Department of Labor. None of the workers in this story reported seeing such a notice or of making any efforts to complain to the DOL.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 6/5/2015 8:42:12 PM >

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/5/2015 8:47:02 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

H1B workers are not supposed to replace American workers -- and its rare I've ever read such a story. Usually Americans companies just ship this kind of shit overseas as Chainsaw Al Dunlop did with Sunbeam.

It doesn't surprise me that Ken lives in fear of immigration and would flag such a story. Like him, I don't like what the mouse did, but the greater story is how Immigration has propelled the USA economically for over 150 years.

I might add that H1B workers are temporary workers, and not immigrants.

Last Point: any employer hiring H1B works must post a notice of its intention to do so in a conspicuous place so that existing employees can see what the employer is doing and if they want to file a complaint with the US Department of Labor. None of the workers in this story reported seeing such a notice or of making any efforts to complain to the DOL.

Not sure how you'd ship Disney World over seas. If you've never seen this before you've not been around Silicon Valley much. They started shipping programming over seas. It turned into an expensive fiasco. So they started bringing the over seas programmers here. I think most of that sort of thing settled down now in the Silicon Valley. If you were going to illigaly replace your workers, why would you be bothered by it being illigal to not post your intent?

Oh, and edited to point out just how many of our temporary workers ever do go home? I think there's millions and millions of them still hanging out.


< Message edited by HunterCA -- 6/5/2015 8:48:23 PM >

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/6/2015 11:15:32 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Actually you're incorrect. I was just out at a food packing plant during picking season. There was a long line of people applying for jobs there. I asked my buddy who they were and my buddy told me it was the usual welfare queens and kings. Welfare requires them to get a job every now and then, I don't know how frequently, in order to stay eligible. They work for a week, collect their check and go back on welfare. It's not that they won't take the jobs. It's that they're more comfortable on welfare.

Its not the same type of work.. working in a food packing plant would be a much better job than working long hours on a farm picking veggies/fruit in 100 degree heat with no toilet and very little water to drink, and getting paid by the pound, not a set amount per hour.. doing that kind of farm work you might not even earn minimum wage and be killing yourself getting heat stroke.. working in a food packing plant would likely be air conditioned, you would have toilets, water and you probably get paid much more for wages..

So they work for a week just to qualify for welfare and then they dont want the job anymore? you just proved the point!.. if it wasnt welfare forcing them to take a job for 1 week then they wouldnt even do that.. If they wanted the job then they would stick with it for as long as the job was there.. and in the vid I posted, there was an American that didnt want a job picking grapes cuz he wanted to be on assistance instead..

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(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/7/2015 12:52:29 AM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Actually you're incorrect. I was just out at a food packing plant during picking season. There was a long line of people applying for jobs there. I asked my buddy who they were and my buddy told me it was the usual welfare queens and kings. Welfare requires them to get a job every now and then, I don't know how frequently, in order to stay eligible. They work for a week, collect their check and go back on welfare. It's not that they won't take the jobs. It's that they're more comfortable on welfare.

Its not the same type of work.. working in a food packing plant would be a much better job than working long hours on a farm picking veggies/fruit in 100 degree heat with no toilet and very little water to drink, and getting paid by the pound, not a set amount per hour.. doing that kind of farm work you might not even earn minimum wage and be killing yourself getting heat stroke.. working in a food packing plant would likely be air conditioned, you would have toilets, water and you probably get paid much more for wages..

So they work for a week just to qualify for welfare and then they dont want the job anymore? you just proved the point!.. if it wasnt welfare forcing them to take a job for 1 week then they wouldnt even do that.. If they wanted the job then they would stick with it for as long as the job was there.. and in the vid I posted, there was an American that didnt want a job picking grapes cuz he wanted to be on assistance instead..



If you're point was that they won't take the work because they'd prefer to be lazy and stay at home, then I agree. They would take the work, however, if welfare wasn't an option. Which is not what the people promoting legalizing illigal immigration say. They say Americans won't take the work,period.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/7/2015 1:34:28 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		We have a similar discussion here in Australia with those on the Right complaining loudly about 'lazy dole bludgers' who decline to take up paid jobs. One problem with this argument is that there are roughly 5-6 unemployed persons for every job vacancy.

151,60 current job vacancies in Feb 2015
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/mf/6354.0

768,000 unemployed (Mar 2015)
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/mf/6202.0
So even if every job vacancy was filled immediately by people from the dole queues, there would remain a surplus of c610,000 unemployed with zero remaining job vacancies.

Another problem with this argument is that it ignores the fact that many of those job vacancies require particular hard-to-find skill sets, particular ranges of experience or qualifications, skill sets, experience and qualifications that the unemployed simply don't possess. So even if they wanted the jobs, they wouldn't qualify for them. And another problem is that many of the vacancies are located in regions far away from where the unemployed live.

Of course these facts don't stop the Right from preaching its simplistic message of further marginalising the already marginalised. From their perspective all unemployed people are gaming the system irrespective of the facts. However these facts demonstrate that the Right's preaching has an ideological rather than factual basis. The Right hates the idea of welfare, of giving a helping hand to those in need. The facts above tell us more about the Right's selfishness, greed and love of bullying the powerless than anything else.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/7/2015 1:40:33 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/7/2015 1:20:58 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Omg! That quintessentially American icon - Disney World - is acting in an un-American way! Seems like not even Disney's Mum-and-apple-pie-as-American-as you-can-get image is going to be allowed to stand between the company and a cheap dollar. If they have to dump American workers and import foreigners to do their jobs then so be it.

As Lucy said that's capitalism in all its finery folks. Gotta love it!

You see, that's just it...Disney IS acting American. America is ALL about money, greed and maximized profits. I've been trying to tell you, [they] want their slaves back. Can't have them, so.....

Here Disney et al...are just doing the next best thing when they can't export a job to Chinese slaves...import the closest people. Oh...and train them before you get the hell out of my office.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/7/2015 1:26:19 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Omg! That quintessentially American icon - Disney World - is acting in an un-American way! Seems like not even Disney's Mum-and-apple-pie-as-American-as you-can-get image is going to be allowed to stand between the company and a cheap dollar. If they have to dump American workers and import foreigners to do their jobs then so be it.

As Lucy said that's capitalism in all its finery folks. Gotta love it!

You see, that's just it...Disney IS acting American. America is ALL about money, greed and maximized profits. I've been trying to tell you, [they] want their slaves back. Can't have them, so.....

Here Disney et al...are just doing the next best thing when they can't export a job to Chinese slaves...import the closest people. Oh...and train them before you get the hell out of my office.



What a sad depressing world view. You know they have drugs for that now.

< Message edited by HunterCA -- 6/7/2015 1:27:11 PM >

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/8/2015 11:08:40 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, its called rightwing nuze.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/8/2015 11:45:41 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Actually you're incorrect. I was just out at a food packing plant during picking season. There was a long line of people applying for jobs there. I asked my buddy who they were and my buddy told me it was the usual welfare queens and kings. Welfare requires them to get a job every now and then, I don't know how frequently, in order to stay eligible. They work for a week, collect their check and go back on welfare. It's not that they won't take the jobs. It's that they're more comfortable on welfare.

Its not the same type of work.. working in a food packing plant would be a much better job than working long hours on a farm picking veggies/fruit in 100 degree heat with no toilet and very little water to drink, and getting paid by the pound, not a set amount per hour.. doing that kind of farm work you might not even earn minimum wage and be killing yourself getting heat stroke.. working in a food packing plant would likely be air conditioned, you would have toilets, water and you probably get paid much more for wages..

So they work for a week just to qualify for welfare and then they dont want the job anymore? you just proved the point!.. if it wasnt welfare forcing them to take a job for 1 week then they wouldnt even do that.. If they wanted the job then they would stick with it for as long as the job was there.. and in the vid I posted, there was an American that didnt want a job picking grapes cuz he wanted to be on assistance instead..



If you're point was that they won't take the work because they'd prefer to be lazy and stay at home, then I agree. They would take the work, however, if welfare wasn't an option. Which is not what the people promoting legalizing illigal immigration say. They say Americans won't take the work,period.

but the reality is that welfare is an option (that isnt gonna change) and so its part of the equation, whether they "say" that or not.. there are other options as well, such as moving back to mommy and daddy's and sponge off them.. again, that option is part of the equation whether they "say" it or not.. all the various options contribute to Americans not wanting those jobs, and when a business or farm needs workers, he/she will take those that show up to apply and work hard at that job (and stick it out past the first day/week)..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/18/2015 4:00:43 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Omg! That quintessentially American icon - Disney World - is acting in an un-American way! Seems like not even Disney's Mum-and-apple-pie-as-American-as you-can-get image is going to be allowed to stand between the company and a cheap dollar. If they have to dump American workers and import foreigners to do their jobs then so be it.

As Lucy said that's capitalism in all its finery folks. Gotta love it!

You see, that's just it...Disney IS acting American. America is ALL about money, greed and maximized profits. I've been trying to tell you, [they] want their slaves back. Can't have them, so.....

Here Disney et al...are just doing the next best thing when they can't export a job to Chinese slaves...import the closest people. Oh...and train them before you get the hell out of my office.



What a sad depressing world view. You know they have drugs for that now.

Well when you see what's going on right in front of your eyes and the result is a race to the bottom of the labor pay scales, then one is forced eventuality to be honest with oneself.

While 'wanting their slaves back' is an expression that although can't really come true, US businesses will always seek the next best thing. Slaves had jobs...didn't do them much good.

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/18/2015 4:14:35 PM   
ThatDaveGuy69


Posts: 978
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		Disney did not actually hire the H1B's and therefore did not have to post notice.
The hired a firm to take over various aspects of their IT operations and that company brought in the H1B's
There's no way Disney officials did not know this would happen.

The reason we have companies abusing the H1B system is that IT workers do not have any sort of lobby/representation is DC. If we did there would be no H1B program. This is the very essence of why unions still matter - the power of the CEO/boardroom must be balanced.

As for Capitalism in general, we are seeing the ultimate goal: extreme, concentrated wealth, dirt-cheap labor, and a bought-and-paid-for electorate. Capitalism in and of itself is not evil so long as there are strong, enforced regulations to keep it honest. If the housing bubble wasn't proof enough that strong regulation is needed then you're simply ignoring reality.


< Message edited by ThatDaveGuy69 -- 6/18/2015 4:15:14 PM >

_____________________________

He said I'd blown a seal. I said fix the damn thing and leave my private life out of this!
What happens in the event horizon STAYS in the Event Horizon!
I have zero tolerance for Zero Tolerance

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/18/2015 6:27:17 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

Disney did not actually hire the H1B's and therefore did not have to post notice.
The hired a firm to take over various aspects of their IT operations and that company brought in the H1B's
There's no way Disney officials did not know this would happen.

The reason we have companies abusing the H1B system is that IT workers do not have any sort of lobby/representation is DC. If we did there would be no H1B program. This is the very essence of why unions still matter - the power of the CEO/boardroom must be balanced.

As for Capitalism in general, we are seeing the ultimate goal: extreme, concentrated wealth, dirt-cheap labor, and a bought-and-paid-for electorate. Capitalism in and of itself is not evil so long as there are strong, enforced regulations to keep it honest. If the housing bubble wasn't proof enough that strong regulation is needed then you're simply ignoring reality.


Up to the last paragraph I was with you. The housing bubble was because of leftist regulation. It had nothing to do with the free market.

(in reply to ThatDaveGuy69)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/18/2015 6:33:58 PM   
ThatDaveGuy69


Posts: 978
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		"The housing bubble was because of leftist regulation. It had nothing to do with the free market. "

Oh DO explain how REGULATION allowed a top ratings firm to call junk mortgages AAA?
Perhaps you really meant a LACK of regulation? Because that's what we had - and still have now.



_____________________________

He said I'd blown a seal. I said fix the damn thing and leave my private life out of this!
What happens in the event horizon STAYS in the Event Horizon!
I have zero tolerance for Zero Tolerance

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/18/2015 6:38:57 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

"The housing bubble was because of leftist regulation. It had nothing to do with the free market. "

Oh DO explain how REGULATION allowed a top ratings firm to call junk mortgages AAA?
Perhaps you really meant a LACK of regulation? Because that's what we had - and still have now.



No, it was regulation. It's been discussed here over and over so I won't go into it now. You should have seen discussions of it. Well, Clinton did repeal Glass-steagall and allow the banks to merge.

(in reply to ThatDaveGuy69)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/18/2015 6:40:21 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

... The reason we have companies abusing the H1B system is that IT workers do not have any sort of lobby/representation is DC. If we did there would be no H1B program. This is the very essence of why unions still matter - the power of the CEO/boardroom must be balanced. ...


I want to make sure I have this right - because I think lobbyists are one of the first things that need to be eradicated: You're calling for more lobbyists. Do I have that right?



Michael

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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(in reply to ThatDaveGuy69)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/18/2015 6:43:19 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

... The reason we have companies abusing the H1B system is that IT workers do not have any sort of lobby/representation is DC. If we did there would be no H1B program. This is the very essence of why unions still matter - the power of the CEO/boardroom must be balanced. ...


I want to make sure I have this right - because I think lobbyists are one of the first things that need to be eradicated: You're calling for more lobbyists. Do I have that right?



Michael

What I assumed he meant, but he seems able to speak for himself, is that IT guys don't have Union representation so have no voice in the big game. God knows unions buy enough politicians now, just look at the recent trade vote.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Disney World H1B employees - 6/18/2015 6:49:39 PM   
ThatDaveGuy69


Posts: 978
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		I hate the idea of lobbyists.

But... My profession has no representation. I don't know of any other such group.
Auto workers, truck drivers, nurses, doctors, farmers, etc. all have one or more groups/associations working on their behalf. IT workers have nothing. And it is
precisely because of this lack of representation that the H1B program got through Congress in the 1st place. Oh sure, there are provisions that are supposed
to keep crap like the Disney mess from happening. But the rules are skirted/ignored and no one is enforcing them.

Rather than MORE lobbyists, maybe we could trade some out :D



_____________________________

He said I'd blown a seal. I said fix the damn thing and leave my private life out of this!
What happens in the event horizon STAYS in the Event Horizon!
I have zero tolerance for Zero Tolerance

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 40
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