RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC

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BamaD -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 11:38:50 AM)
If there were strong laws requiring the same background checks at gun shows as when buying a weapons at your neighborhood dealer....would that be taking away freedom? There is, the fuss and misdirection is about private sales. If I sell to you, in many states, there is no background check. If it happens to be at a gun show the law covering private sales governs the situation. Dealers have to do checks at gun shows just like they do in their stores.

BamaD -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 11:40:57 AM)
If there were strong laws allowing the prosecution of a gun owner for negligence if a child or innocent is killed or wounded by the careless storage of a weapon... would that be " taking away a freedom" Again already covered by criminal negligence. But some people want "safe storage" rules so tight that you might as well not have one.

lovmuffin -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 11:41:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HunterCA quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: It never ends. This is why these threads are so important...we are hoping to talk some sense into the Bama's and lovemuffin's of this world...and in the doing receive some of the torture we enjoy...[:D]... you know banging head against the wall and such. Butch What sense ? As soon as one of you guys comes up with something sensible, I'm all ears. Stop banging your head, you might make more sense 😎 People may not believe it but I've said for years if the left ever came up with something that would work in the real world is get behind it. But, minding that every law created necessarily takes away liberty, I've never seen a liberal law work. Good point, it's pretty much the same thing with just about every issue.

BamaD -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 11:44:22 AM)
If there were strong laws governing the possession of weapons by those deemed mentally incompetent... and laws requiring a mental examination and certification before allowed to possess weapons?... would that be taking away freedoms. Yes, while mental health records( if they are any threat) should be included in the background check there are many shrinks who think that wanting a firearm means you are unstable and shouldn't have one. Even more open minded ones would be afraid of making a mistake so no one would pass the exam.

BamaD -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 11:49:33 AM)
There is no federal law or penalty specially for the accidental killing or maiming of a child by a gun owner... There is no such law in Missouri... there needs to be don't you think? If there were direct penalties for killing your son or daughter or neighbors child through negligence then i believe owners would be more careful and aware. Do we need a special law if the kid gets into you garage and drinks antifreeze? Or another if he drinks kerosene? No we have laws covering criminal negligence that cover all forms, otherwise we would need a separate law for each possible form of carelessness.

BamaD -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 11:52:30 AM)
I hear you and Bama and others say they are for reasonable laws on gun ownership but never have I heard either of you join into a discussion of laws that would work for you... All I ever here is why others suggestions would not work. Yes we have but since they are all aimed at criminals and not legitimate owners you see them as refusing to do anything.

lovmuffin -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 11:53:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic where is the proof for that? Dont be silly, you got to arm yourself to stop yourself getting shot. Who on earth thinks that you can just walk about freely, either in the shops, at school or at church....... Yeah I know Lucy I know. [;)] There is no proof, he has never shown a link, or factual evidence. Its all bullshit. [image]http://www.lucylasticslair.com/sarcasm.gif[/image] Its hard not being able to arm myself against terrorists who blow things up. Its been so tough for me without a gun to make me feel brave I'll just wring my hands and pretend that theres nothing to be done. We can nuke the mooozelems, we can build a fence across the border for the illegals, we can blame the blacks...for everything we cant blame the liberals on. And its a tragedy, but theres nothing to be done[image]http://www.lucylasticslair.com/sarcasm.gif[/image] No one with a brain the size of a pea ant would suggest a gun might be helpful in a terrorist bomb type of situation. I haven't seen anyone suggest nor have I suggested blacks are to blame or any of your other straw an bullshit. What I did suggest is armed resistance against mass murdering idiots. Had one or two of these church folks been armed then the circumstances could have been mitigated.

Politesub53 -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 11:54:44 AM)
Shooting innocent church goers isnt carelessness though, is it. Its a crime. The fact that the killer sat in and talked with the congregation hardly equates to a sudden murdeous rage, so he will be hard pushed to plead insanity.

BamaD -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 11:56:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Why bring up strawman arguments... we are talking guns and guns only...If you think we need mental competency tests to drive cars I'd be all for it... but we are not discussing that. There is no federal law or penalty specially for the accidental killing or maiming of a child by a gun owner... There is no such law in Missouri... there needs to be don't you think? If there were direct penalties for killing your son or daughter or neighbors child through negligence then i believe owners would be more careful and aware. So you are against ANY and ALL gun owners needing a background check before owning a weapon... that is what you are saying... and you think this is responsible? You are not directly answering my questions...If I decide to sell a gun as an individual at a gun show, the sponsor of the show could very easily be required to set up a background check just as a dealer is required... It is not hard. The same with the private sale of a weapon... all that would be required is for the buyer to have to register his or her weapon to be legal... If it were a child with the permission of a parent than all that would be required is a training class for weapon use and safety. I think it is not the registration process that most or against but the time and cost involved.. Is taking a few weeks and a few dollars such a big sacrifice to endure to at least somewhat assure competent gun ownership? What I proposed will not of course stop the insane from killing as in this thread... but it would make it harder for them... It will not prevent the tragedies of accidental killings and injuries... but it could reduce the number...The proper storage of weapons will not keep them out of the hands of criminals... but it would make them harder to steal and perhaps slow down the proliferation of weapons among criminals. It is not so much the type of law... or the enforcement of a law... but the refusal for gun owners to even consider changing existing laws... mandating existing laws enforcement... or ... replacing old legislation with new to address an obvious problem with guns in America. I hear you and Bama and others say they are for reasonable laws on gun ownership but never have I heard either of you join into a discussion of laws that would work for you... All I ever here is why others suggestions would not work. Don't get me wrong here... unlike many I am for gun ownership... I am a gun owner myself... but I do see a problem and I am afraid if we, gun owners, do not demand responsible ownership with strong laws to guarantee this then we may face a backlash we will not like. Butch These last two posts of yours ignore the real problems here. Lack of respect for the law. Racism Drug use. Lack of respect for other people. Attacking the tool won't do a thing about the problem, it will just make people feel better. THIS ISN'T ABOUT GUNS Ps they violated gun laws that already exist, and the last I checked murder is illegal.

Lucylastic -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 11:58:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic where is the proof for that? Dont be silly, you got to arm yourself to stop yourself getting shot. Who on earth thinks that you can just walk about freely, either in the shops, at school or at church....... Yeah I know Lucy I know. [;)] There is no proof, he has never shown a link, or factual evidence. Its all bullshit. [image]http://www.lucylasticslair.com/sarcasm.gif[/image] Its hard not being able to arm myself against terrorists who blow things up. Its been so tough for me without a gun to make me feel brave I'll just wring my hands and pretend that theres nothing to be done. We can nuke the mooozelems, we can build a fence across the border for the illegals, we can blame the blacks...for everything we cant blame the liberals on. And its a tragedy, but theres nothing to be done[image]http://www.lucylasticslair.com/sarcasm.gif[/image] No one with a brain the size of a pea ant would suggest a gun might be helpful in a terrorist bomb type of situation. I haven't seen anyone suggest nor have I suggested blacks are to blame or any of your other straw an bullshit. What I did suggest is armed resistance against mass murdering idiots. Had one or two of these church folks been armed then the circumstances could have been mitigated. FFS can you not see the SARCASM animations?????? Or are you just having an unlucky day thinking?

Politesub53 -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 12:02:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin No one with a brain the size of a pea ant would suggest a gun might be helpful in a terrorist bomb type of situation. I haven't seen anyone suggest nor have I suggested blacks are to blame or any of your other straw an bullshit. What I did suggest is armed resistance against mass murdering idiots. Had one or two of these church folks been armed then the circumstances could have been mitigated. What planet are you on ? See the bolded part and think this through, it is absurd man.

NorthernGent -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 12:20:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin No one with a brain the size of a pea ant would suggest a gun might be helpful in a terrorist bomb type of situation. I haven't seen anyone suggest nor have I suggested blacks are to blame or any of your other straw an bullshit. What I did suggest is armed resistance against mass murdering idiots. Had one or two of these church folks been armed then the circumstances could have been mitigated. What planet are you on ? See the bolded part and think this through, it is absurd man. It's not, though, really is it. It's a fairly rational argument that being armed with a gun may deter people with criminal intent. Nothing absurd about that; fairly logical in fact. Now, it doesn't apply to England. Different country, different way of thinking, small, crowded island etc. But, it could just be a decent argument for the United States. A big, unwieldy country where in some places there aren't many people around to help you or enforce the law, and so a gun could be your sole means of protection in the face of a lunatic wandering 'round. For some reason the United States is a country that seems to spawn people (more people per head) who want to go out and cause a lot of damage - more than other countries I can think of in what is generally deemed to be the developed world - so perhaps it's a good thing they have guns because take the guns away and the weapon of choice could be a bomb, which would be far more destructive. Either way, it's not really a good argument to say that the actions of a few lunatics means the sensible vast majority should do without guns.

BamaD -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 12:39:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic where is the proof for that? Dont be silly, you got to arm yourself to stop yourself getting shot. Who on earth thinks that you can just walk about freely, either in the shops, at school or at church....... Yeah I know Lucy I know. [;)] There is no proof, he has never shown a link, or factual evidence. Its all bullshit. [image]http://www.lucylasticslair.com/sarcasm.gif[/image] Its hard not being able to arm myself against terrorists who blow things up. Its been so tough for me without a gun to make me feel brave I'll just wring my hands and pretend that theres nothing to be done. We can nuke the mooozelems, we can build a fence across the border for the illegals, we can blame the blacks...for everything we cant blame the liberals on. And its a tragedy, but theres nothing to be done[image]http://www.lucylasticslair.com/sarcasm.gif[/image] No one with a brain the size of a pea ant would suggest a gun might be helpful in a terrorist bomb type of situation. I haven't seen anyone suggest nor have I suggested blacks are to blame or any of your other straw an bullshit. What I did suggest is armed resistance against mass murdering idiots. Had one or two of these church folks been armed then the circumstances could have been mitigated. I understand he had to reload. That means there would have been time to fight back, had they been armed, and there is no way it would have been worse.

lovmuffin -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 12:42:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD If there were strong laws governing the possession of weapons by those deemed mentally incompetent... and laws requiring a mental examination and certification before allowed to possess weapons?... would that be taking away freedoms. Yes, while mental health records( if they are any threat) should be included in the background check there are many shrinks who think that wanting a firearm means you are unstable and shouldn't have one. Even more open minded ones would be afraid of making a mistake so no one would pass the exam. Many states have refused to require mental health records be included in the database. In this case Roof's pending drug felony which by law restricted him from buying a gun did not show up on the check (not that it would have stopped him from getting a gun anyway). The mental health issue is a double edge sword though. There are way too many people with mild issues who could get caught up in a broad sweeping net but otherwise are not a threat.

BamaD -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 12:48:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD If there were strong laws governing the possession of weapons by those deemed mentally incompetent... and laws requiring a mental examination and certification before allowed to possess weapons?... would that be taking away freedoms. Yes, while mental health records( if they are any threat) should be included in the background check there are many shrinks who think that wanting a firearm means you are unstable and shouldn't have one. Even more open minded ones would be afraid of making a mistake so no one would pass the exam. Many states have refused to require mental health records be included in the database. In this case Roof's pending drug felony which by law restricted him from buying a gun did not show up on the check (not that it would have stopped him from getting a gun anyway). The mental health issue is a double edge sword though. There are way too many people with mild issues who could get caught up in a broad sweeping net but otherwise are not a threat. That is the reason I qualified it as those who present a threat. I don't think that all mental health records should be included by any means, at that point you are treading on mental health issues. If he passed a background check this re-enforces my argument about keeping the background database updated and tightened up. Under current law there is no way he could have gotten the weapon legally.

lovmuffin -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 12:51:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic where is the proof for that? Dont be silly, you got to arm yourself to stop yourself getting shot. Who on earth thinks that you can just walk about freely, either in the shops, at school or at church....... Yeah I know Lucy I know. [;)] There is no proof, he has never shown a link, or factual evidence. Its all bullshit. [image]http://www.lucylasticslair.com/sarcasm.gif[/image] Its hard not being able to arm myself against terrorists who blow things up. Its been so tough for me without a gun to make me feel brave I'll just wring my hands and pretend that theres nothing to be done. We can nuke the mooozelems, we can build a fence across the border for the illegals, we can blame the blacks...for everything we cant blame the liberals on. And its a tragedy, but theres nothing to be done[image]http://www.lucylasticslair.com/sarcasm.gif[/image] No one with a brain the size of a pea ant would suggest a gun might be helpful in a terrorist bomb type of situation. I haven't seen anyone suggest nor have I suggested blacks are to blame or any of your other straw an bullshit. What I did suggest is armed resistance against mass murdering idiots. Had one or two of these church folks been armed then the circumstances could have been mitigated. FFS can you not see the SARCASM animations?????? Or are you just having an unlucky day thinking? But but but Lucy, I took it as sarcasm directed at me but ok then, never mind except for the armed resistance part😎

lovmuffin -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 12:58:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin No one with a brain the size of a pea ant would suggest a gun might be helpful in a terrorist bomb type of situation. I haven't seen anyone suggest nor have I suggested blacks are to blame or any of your other straw an bullshit. What I did suggest is armed resistance against mass murdering idiots. Had one or two of these church folks been armed then the circumstances could have been mitigated. What planet are you on ? See the bolded part and think this through, it is absurd man. I'm on earth, I think you're the one on another planet and you're the one who needs to think it through, what ever it is you're thinking. Maybe you could have made your post with something more specific. What is so absurd ? I know that over on your side of the pond most street cops don't even carry guns. There is a reason they do so over here. I'm sure you think that's absurd too.

lovmuffin -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 1:06:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD If there were strong laws governing the possession of weapons by those deemed mentally incompetent... and laws requiring a mental examination and certification before allowed to possess weapons?... would that be taking away freedoms. Yes, while mental health records( if they are any threat) should be included in the background check there are many shrinks who think that wanting a firearm means you are unstable and shouldn't have one. Even more open minded ones would be afraid of making a mistake so no one would pass the exam. Many states have refused to require mental health records be included in the database. In this case Roof's pending drug felony which by law restricted him from buying a gun did not show up on the check (not that it would have stopped him from getting a gun anyway). The mental health issue is a double edge sword though. There are way too many people with mild issues who could get caught up in a broad sweeping net but otherwise are not a threat. That is the reason I qualified it as those who present a threat. I don't think that all mental health records should be included by any means, at that point you are treading on mental health issues. If he passed a background check this re-enforces my argument about keeping the background database updated and tightened up. Under current law there is no way he could have gotten the weapon legally. Yes, just reiterating adding to your excellent point so even certain liberals here might be able pick up on it.

lovmuffin -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 1:08:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin No one with a brain the size of a pea ant would suggest a gun might be helpful in a terrorist bomb type of situation. I haven't seen anyone suggest nor have I suggested blacks are to blame or any of your other straw an bullshit. What I did suggest is armed resistance against mass murdering idiots. Had one or two of these church folks been armed then the circumstances could have been mitigated. What planet are you on ? See the bolded part and think this through, it is absurd man. It's not, though, really is it. It's a fairly rational argument that being armed with a gun may deter people with criminal intent. Nothing absurd about that; fairly logical in fact. Now, it doesn't apply to England. Different country, different way of thinking, small, crowded island etc. But, it could just be a decent argument for the United States. A big, unwieldy country where in some places there aren't many people around to help you or enforce the law, and so a gun could be your sole means of protection in the face of a lunatic wandering 'round. For some reason the United States is a country that seems to spawn people (more people per head) who want to go out and cause a lot of damage - more than other countries I can think of in what is generally deemed to be the developed world - so perhaps it's a good thing they have guns because take the guns away and the weapon of choice could be a bomb, which would be far more destructive. Either way, it's not really a good argument to say that the actions of a few lunatics means the sensible vast majority should do without guns. That was so well said that I'm feeling horrible for being so snarky back at him😎

Sanity -> RE: Unidentified Man attacks Black Church in SC (6/21/2015 2:04:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity A few snippets from a USA Today article about the crime. What exactly do you want to change about the culture described? quote: "You took something really precious away from me, I will never talk to her again, never hold her again, but I forgive you," said the daughter of one of the victims, Ethel Lance. "You hurt me, you hurt a lot of people but God forgive you and I forgive you..." She said her sister "taught me me that we are the family that love built, we have no room for hate, so we have to forgive..." Yeah, no. Obviously these people aren't really black. [image]http://www.weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2015-06-21-at-9.10.45-AM.png[/image] K. Good post. K Too bad the hotlink failed Heres the link: http://www.weaselzippers.us/227045-charleston-tells-professional-race-agitator-gohomederay/

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