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ORIGINAL: MariaB

This is an interesting topic...thank you Aperturel. I'm about to head off to work so only have a few minutes but just wanted to say...

Masculinity or a parents own truth of masculinity is our set beliefs that we instil in our children in their formative years. Its like automatic programming that is hard wired into our young sons brain. I don't know if you have heard of the "Fridge Door Syndrome"? This is when parents subconsciously programme their children into believing that only achievement is rewarded with proudness. Instilling masculinity is in the same category as this.

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

Awareness, sometimes you remind me of a screaming chimpanzee that leaps around his territory trying to intimidate others. You really are king of the apes.

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ORIGINAL: crazyml

Well... it's a good trailer.

It certainly raises a number of serious issues, many of which are very well documented. I can't make any kind of call as to how well it will actually treat those issues, doubtless Awareness has some special insight that enables him to draw the conclusion that it's somehow anti-male, unless he's doing the hysterical knee-jerk thing.

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ORIGINAL: crazyml

As a very lucky father of two superb teenage boys, I'm glad that both of them have the courage and strength to express themselves effectively, and that they're both self confident and mature enough to know that slipping into pathetic sexism and whining about the imaginary threat that feminism represents is a sign of deep seated weakness.

I guess it is going to be hard for those young boys, and men, who depend so much on the privilege that sexism confers on them to be successful to face a world that has moved on from those old days where strength and aggression were valuable traits to become one where skills of empathy, collaboration and communication are far more important.

But hey.

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ORIGINAL: ApertureLash

I'm going to say something that's possibly controversial here - I do believe that the feminist movement can be oppressive to women sometimes. I've spoken to a few women who have got so caught up in feminism that when they can't manage something typically "male" they feel like they've failed somehow (a divorced friend getting upset when she couldn't put up shelves, knowing her ex could have done it pretty easily), or as in the case of a woman I know who wants to be a stay at home mum, but feels judged by all her friends who're constantly pushing her to go back to work. To the point where it makes her cry because she feels like she's not good enough because she's not competing to be as good as the men around her.

I've been called a sexist misogynist prick for saying that in the past, but contextually, I do believe in women getting equal pay for equal work, equal rights under the law etc. I just worry a bit that feminism sometimes focuses so hard on telling women that they can be as good as any man, that the message that you don't have to compete on equal terms with men if you don't want to be might get lost in the fervour.

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I would love to think we're headed to a brave new world that is more accepting of real human emotion and in which it is an advantage. I saw an article the other day which I didn't have time to read, which was talking about how there wasn't enough angry people to sustain business the way it is, as you need angry, aggressive people to pursue business interests. The "old world" mentality of might-is-right, macho dog-eat-dog seems to be alive and well in the boardroom.

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Makes me think back to a study that was done years ago. Psychologists went to fortune 500 companies to do psychological profiles of board members and CEO's. They found that almost every one of them was clinically psychopathic, and made arguments for why this is a good thing.

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But then, recent studies have shown that businesses are starting to value suppliers in which there is a clear and demonstrable culture of trust and reward for the staff, rather than accountability and micromanagement. This seems to be because in these post-google days, people are starting to realise that employees want to work. They like working. And giving them an environment in which they can enjoy doing so results in lower costs and higher productivity than one in which you badger, threaten and intimidate people into productivity.

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I guess my point is, I see some reason for hoping that you're right - that we're moving towards a world that can appreciate and not just handle people as employees with feelings and needs, but recognise the benefits of empathy and the negative impact of having a selfish sphincter in charge of your most valuable assets, your people. I just hope that we can find ways to help the emotionally retarded to connect with their own emotional needs, rather than just sidelining them.

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ORIGINAL: ApertureLash

I'm going to say something that's possibly controversial here - I do believe that the feminist movement can be oppressive to women sometimes. I've spoken to a few women who have got so caught up in feminism that when they can't manage something typically "male" they feel like they've failed somehow (a divorced friend getting upset when she couldn't put up shelves, knowing her ex could have done it pretty easily), or as in the case of a woman I know who wants to be a stay at home mum, but feels judged by all her friends who're constantly pushing her to go back to work. To the point where it makes her cry because she feels like she's not good enough because she's not competing to be as good as the men around her.

I've been called a sexist misogynist prick for saying that in the past, but contextually, I do believe in women getting equal pay for equal work, equal rights under the law etc. I just worry a bit that feminism sometimes focuses so hard on telling women that they can be as good as any man, that the message that you don't have to compete on equal terms with men if you don't want to be might get lost in the fervour.

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ORIGINAL: MariaB


I hate hearing a woman saying, "I can do anything a man can". I know that men and women function in a similar way but there are differences. There have been many scientific studies that prove that the female brain works differently to the male brain and that's why we are better at some things and worse at others. Unfortunately this sort of discussion tends to evoke high emotions which is a shame.

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

Awareness, sometimes you remind me of a screaming chimpanzee that leaps around his territory trying to intimidate others. You really are king of the apes.

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ORIGINAL: crazyml
doubtless Awareness has some special insight that enables him to draw the conclusion that it's somehow anti-male

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that they're both self confident and mature enough to know that slipping into pathetic sexism and whining about the imaginary threat that feminism represents is a sign of deep seated weakness.

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

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ORIGINAL: crazyml
doubtless Awareness has some special insight that enables him to draw the conclusion that it's somehow anti-male

Yes, it's called testosterone, a pretty damn good model of the world and being utterly unconcerned with flattering women's pretensions.

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The feminist model of conventional masculinity as inherently toxic AND a consequence of cultural conditioning has no evidence base whatsoever.

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Masculinity is implicitly biological and when you try and raise a biological boy as a girl, he suicides.

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The feminist model of masculinity as a disease which must be cured is stunningly offensive. Any man who supports it has serious psychological issues. Self-hate is never a good thing.

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that they're both self confident and mature enough to know that slipping into pathetic sexism and whining about the imaginary threat that feminism represents is a sign of deep seated weakness.

We'll see how you feel when one of your boys is jailed for rape because he's been falsely accused and the burden of proof that feminists are advocating for ("a woman's word should be good enough") has put him there.

Your blinkered lack of understanding about how the world works is inevitably going to impact them. I suspect you've raised them to emulate your weakness - and that's never going to work in the real world.

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

Maria your fear of masculinity is your own problem. I'm never going to support a bunch of idiocy designed to defang men and turn them into acquiescent stooges like nerdboy here.

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Seeing as how you're a woman, you haven't the faintest fucking clue about the masculine experience. So you'll have to forgive me if I regard your bleatings as more irrelevance from the gender who can't shut the fuck up about how terrible their life is.

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I'm also terribly amused that a discussion about masculinity has very quickly turned into women talking about themselves. Ye Gods, does your self-obsession never end?

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ORIGINAL: crazyml

I've been called a sexist misogynist prick for saying very similar things, myself.

But there are a number of things at play here.

Firstly, the whole point of feminism (and I'm sure there'll be a mens rights activist along at some point to contradict me) is that women have a right to compete on equal terms with men - Not that they can do everything a man can, but if they can do a job as well as a man they should not be prevented from doing it simply because they are a woman.

"I can do anything a man can" misses the point - The goal of gender equality isn't that - The goal is to enable people, regardless of their sex to say "I can do anything I can... and I won't be prevented from doing that thing on the basis of my gender".

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ORIGINAL: crazyml

I also agree that there's a shit-ton of evidence that demonstrates that there are real differences between men and women, that do lead to significant differences in physical ability and basic attitudes to things like risk and conflict.

The biggest problem, for both genders, is that in evolutionary terms we've not made a ton of progress since the bronze age, while the environment within which we exist has changed fundamentally - Neither Men or women are particularly optimised for modern life whether that's in terms of the social (we're still basically pack animals) within which we exist, or the food we eat (we're not really that well evolved to be carnivores).

I was brought up by a full-on banner waving, protesting, bra-burning Feminist. Who gave up her career to bring up her children. She struggled at times with the conflict that choice presented - But her whole point was that it should be a choice, not predetermined "destiny".

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ORIGINAL: MariaB


I was a stay at home mum with my youngest and I did feel under pressure to go out to work so I could financially contribute fairly to the nest. Looking back, there wasn't any outside pressure but my own guilt... and my own guilt made me wrongly believe that there was outside pressure. I used to get upset and defensive when people asked me what I did for a living; its like being torn between the devil and the deep blue sea...I loved being with my child but at the same time I felt guilty and wrongly believed people were judging me.

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

Women do put pressure on themselves to be strong and independent but then many of us have come from or experienced broken homes. Unlike our ancestors where marriage was for life (happy or not), we live in an age where we can't afford to be "just" the happy housewife. We saw our mother struggle when the shit hit the fan; we have witnessed our female friends suffer when their relationships broke up...We have to be strong or so we believe.

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

I hate hearing a woman saying, "I can do anything a man can". I know that men and women function in a similar way but there are differences. There have been many scientific studies that prove that the female brain works differently to the male brain and that's why we are better at some things and worse at others. Unfortunately this sort of discussion tends to evoke high emotions which is a shame.

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ORIGINAL: Moderator3

Well, after a mod warning, this went too far.

Edit: I thought it was a loss, but found I could let it stand with the first posts, once I was able to read more carefully, just killing off the end.

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ApertureLash
Are you certain it wasn't outside forces making you feel guilty? I mean, where did this idea in your head that you are somehow failing in your duty because you're staying at home instead of helping to earn a crust come from in the first place?

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ApetureLash

I'd say women put pressure on each other to stay strong and independent too. Again, people often let their empathy run backwards. Sometimes we see another person lacking something we find desirable, and want to encourage that person to go get that thing - but what if a woman doesn't really want to be strong? What if she wants to revel in her femininity and her vulnerability, at the same time as letting her man's masculinity be the strength in her life?

I find it fascinating that over the last 50 years, sexual studies of women have shown an increase in the number of women fantasising about being raped. To the point where it's now (according to some recent studies, don't shoot me if you disagree) the most common sexual fantasy among women. 60% of women admit to it (and that's just those willing to admit to it).

I do wonder if the rise in extreme submissive fantasies like rape fantasies is tied to the successes of the feminist movement. That is to say, as women have felt stronger and more empowered, their sexuality has become more and more submissive (in extremely general terms)...?

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ApetureLash

Our brains (as I was saying earlier) can be somewhat similar, but generally speaking women have more connections in the brain between hemespheres than men do. Your emotional centres are connected directly to your logic centres in ways ours aren't. Crazyml was talking about how we've not adapted biologically to modern life, and this seems to be true - women seem to have brains adapted to being able to access their emotional core at all times. This gives women an empathetic edge. Men can't think logically and emotionally at the same time - we don't (most of us don't) have the physical connections in our brains between the logic and emotional centres of our brains. This means we can focus in a way you can't, but it also means we have to take time to think about it when you lot say "what do you feel about that?"

We just don't know right away. We have to literally stop what we're doing, put down our logical train of thought, reconfigure our brains to think emotionally, and stop to mull over what we feel. You lot tend to know right away - you're constantly in touch with what you're feeling. We're not physically capable of that. We're biologically emotionally screened off so that we can focus in ways women generally can't.

It's a hunter/gatherer thing. We can focus on our task better if we're not distracted by feeling things. Especially if we have need to kill.

Women seem to be much better wired up to cope with the emotional demands of children, men wired up to cope with the logical demands of providing. Our brains haven't caught up with the modern way of living.

We can also switch our brains off in ways you can't. We have a "nothing box". If you fancy a laugh, do a search on youtube for "nothing box" - the guy knows what he's talking about, but he's hilarious too.

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ORIGINAL: ApertureLash

Our brains (as I was saying earlier) can be somewhat similar, but generally speaking women have more connections in the brain between hemespheres than men do. Your emotional centres are connected directly to your logic centres in ways ours aren't. Crazyml was talking about how we've not adapted biologically to modern life, and this seems to be true - women seem to have brains adapted to being able to access their emotional core at all times. This gives women an empathetic edge. Men can't think logically and emotionally at the same time - we don't (most of us don't) have the physical connections in our brains between the logic and emotional centres of our brains. This means we can focus in a way you can't, but it also means we have to take time to think about it when you lot say "what do you feel about that?"

We just don't know right away. We have to literally stop what we're doing, put down our logical train of thought, reconfigure our brains to think emotionally, and stop to mull over what we feel. You lot tend to know right away - you're constantly in touch with what you're feeling. We're not physically capable of that. We're biologically emotionally screened off so that we can focus in ways women generally can't.

It's a hunter/gatherer thing. We can focus on our task better if we're not distracted by feeling things. Especially if we have need to kill.

Women seem to be much better wired up to cope with the emotional demands of children, men wired up to cope with the logical demands of providing. Our brains haven't caught up with the modern way of living.

We can also switch our brains off in ways you can't. We have a "nothing box". If you fancy a laugh, do a search on youtube for "nothing box" - the guy knows what he's talking about, but he's hilarious too.