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RE: King v Burwell - 6/25/2015 6:34:31 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2377
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


'In this instance, the context and structure of the Act compel us to depart from what would otherwise be the most natural reading of the pertinent statutory phrase'...

SCALIA: 'WORDS NO LONGER HAVE MEANING'...


I'm sorry... Scalia is a political hack... Not a competent legal mind. His opinions are full of right-wing hyper-partisan ideology, as opposed to legal precedent and resulting conclusions.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: King v Burwell - 6/25/2015 6:56:43 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Too bad on the court ruling. If the ACA had been shot down perhaps we could have had health care legislation instead of a mandatory insurance tax with no change to the health care system.

Well no. The investor class is already looking into targeted windfalls. After all, this is a mandate...the repub wet dream of 1992-3.

Getting it yet kinkroids ?

This is a for-profit country and it's going to get a whole lot worse, before it gets better. In fact...[it] isn't ever going to get any better. We've hit the ceiling on life expectancy, infant mortality is getting worse, medical bankruptcies will in time...top a million per year and imagine of you will...WITH insurance !!

A friend recently went to the ER with an anxiety episode and is diabetic. One blood test, a short visit by the ER Dr., one x-ray and 4 hours later, he's ok.

$16,500.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: King v Burwell - 6/25/2015 7:26:40 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2377
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i assume merctech is referring to the penalty people have to pay for not having insurance Einstein. and no I don't want to hear about exemptions from the mandate. that's beside the point.

that said, as to notions of "the republicans don't (or didn't) have an alternative"---there were some then, and there are some now. to state otherwise is either disingenuous, ridiculously partisan, or a little lazy.

but more importantly, the very idea that the government needs to be involved in healthcare (at least to the extent they are) is something a large part of the country doesn't even buy into as a starter. so an appropriate reply for many of us to "the republicans don't have an alternative" (apart from that they do) is:

so what?? its not in their job description. from the libertarian/conservative perspective, the solutions to problems like this don't belong in governments hands.

to wit---allow more medical schools to exist, which leads to more doctors, which would likely create competition (lowering prices) and increasing access.

as it is---doctors loathe Obamacare, are leaving their practices at a rate higher than in the past and there will be less medical school graduates to fill the positions than usual since the whole fiasco started.

but its really not essentially about healthcare, or even access to healthcare, its primarily about liberal government growth.



1) The only Republican alternative to the ACA that I have seen is to let the Insurance companies charge what they want, and give people a tax credit to help pay for it. (Remember Meidcare Part D?) If there is a better Republican plan, please point me to a link. Republicans have talked for years about supporting competition across state lines. They don't REALLY support that. They are too beholden to the Insurance lobby.

2) I appreciate your medical school idea... But no one is keeping medical schools from existing. And a Doctor shortage is not the main problem

3) Doctors leaving their practices have to do with them being reimbursed at lower rates. (Which would happen with or without the ACA).

The Healthcare system is complicated. The Payers created the Fee for Service model, which, once they obtained significant volume, started to collude with the providers to create a "candy store". Hospitals and specialists could charge what they want (I have worked for 3 large ones). Payers didn't mind paying for it, as long as they could pass along the cost to their customers. The costs kept spiraling upward, until it reached a breaking point. Obviously in the individual market. The already HUGE GAP between qualifying for Medicare, and affording individual market health insurance widened even farther.

Any policy that actually fell in that gap (and was close to affordable) was junk (HUGE deductibles, and co-pays).

Something had to be done. Was ACA the right answer? In the short-term, I would say, YES.


It is a delicate balance, which requires the payers to play along. It requires:

1) A Healthy mixed risk pool for the payers (enough healthy people paying, to subsidize the non-healthy)
2) A mandate to support the risk pool (Originally a Heritage Foundation idea)

The problem now is, the payers (having had several years of data to review) are threatening not to play along. If they determine that their rates are not matching their risk and their desired profit margin, the whole thing falls apart. (AND, in that case, ACO's (see below) will grow even faster.


Would it have been better if some free-market principles had taken over? SURE (Although not all free-market principles apply to healthcare, as it is NOT a pure free-market).


The MAIN issue in fixing healthcare in the US is to create an incentive to STOP the candy store.

If both parties had fought the insurance lobbies and all of the "states rightists" and actually LET insurance companies compete across state lines, that would have helped. The payers needed some downward pressure, so they, in turn could pressure the providers.

Well, guess what, the ACA (whatever you think of it) has provided that pressure. (It gave the free market a kick start). And now in healthcare, we have the emergence in a big way of the ACO and the CIN. ACO's are still coded as Fee for Service but are actually revenue-sharing mechanisms among PCP's, Specialists, and Hospitals. A subscriber pays a monthly fee to the ACO, and that revenue is shared among the participants based on many factors, many including quality of care according to various performance measures. Payers (Ins companies) HATE ACO's because it bypasses them. (Although many ACO's use a payer to broker and handle the claims (via ICD-9/10).

CIN's are mechanisms for ACO's or other healthcare consortiums to show exactly how their members are doing against quality measures. This can serve two purposes:

1) If the consortium is NOT an ACO, the consortium can still negotiate as a BLOC with payers (payer hate this)
2) If the consortium IS an ACO, the CIN enables the group to measure outcomes of the individual members.

The bottom line is, providers are going to have to realize that there will be a new norm for case-by-case reimbursement. This would happen with or without the ACA. Medicare/Medicaid was going to lower reimbursement no matter what. Now payers are lowering reimbursement. The way to make it up is a subscription service (an ACO) where they can make it up on volume.

The ACA will become less relevant over the years, because the whole Fee for Service market is already expiring. Providers have found a way to make up on volume, what they have lost on rates.

Republicans have been talking about free-market principles. The ACA kick-started just that! (And loosened the grip that payer had on the market)


Lastly, the evil "liberal government growth" will become irrelevant, as the private free-market finds more effective ways to deliver health-care at a fair profit.

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: King v Burwell - 6/25/2015 7:48:54 PM   
Wayward5oul


Posts: 3314
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

A friend recently went to the ER with an anxiety episode and is diabetic. One blood test, a short visit by the ER Dr., one x-ray and 4 hours later, he's ok.

$16,500.


I had two outpatient surgeries this year and neither of those cost that much.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: King v Burwell - 6/25/2015 8:17:32 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


'In this instance, the context and structure of the Act compel us to depart from what would otherwise be the most natural reading of the pertinent statutory phrase'...

SCALIA: 'WORDS NO LONGER HAVE MEANING'...


I'm sorry... Scalia is a political hack... Not a competent legal mind. His opinions are full of right-wing hyper-partisan ideology, as opposed to legal precedent and resulting conclusions.


Thats alright, no need to be sorry - I am sure he would say similar things about you if he knew you





< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/25/2015 8:18:11 PM >


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: King v Burwell - 6/25/2015 8:36:46 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

A friend recently went to the ER with an anxiety episode and is diabetic. One blood test, a short visit by the ER Dr., one x-ray and 4 hours later, he's ok.

$16,500.


I had two outpatient surgeries this year and neither of those cost that much.


I've had two separate ER episodes, both back in the 80's...heart.

Each day was less than 24 hours and $3000. I think ER now, is the sink hole of profits because it's just easier (rationalized) billing and profits.

(in reply to Wayward5oul)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: King v Burwell - 6/25/2015 8:57:20 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2377
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


'In this instance, the context and structure of the Act compel us to depart from what would otherwise be the most natural reading of the pertinent statutory phrase'...

SCALIA: 'WORDS NO LONGER HAVE MEANING'...


I'm sorry... Scalia is a political hack... Not a competent legal mind. His opinions are full of right-wing hyper-partisan ideology, as opposed to legal precedent and resulting conclusions.


Thats alright, no need to be sorry - I am sure he would say similar things about you if he knew you






He would say that I am a political hack, not a competent legal mind, and that my opinions are full of right-wing hyper partisan ideology?

Yes. That's me :)

<just kidding... I know you said "similar things" :)>

< Message edited by MasterJaguar01 -- 6/25/2015 8:58:08 PM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 4:21:10 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
i assume merctech is referring to the penalty people have to pay for not having insurance Einstein. and no I don't want to hear about exemptions from the mandate. that's beside the point.


merctech is referring to some bullshit some conservative personality babbled out. Not having enough ability to research for the correct information, he accepted it. Anyone with decent researching skills could take just five minutes to understand how the law handles the subject matter. merctech nor you, have these sort of skills. And I know this, because I informed the both of you a few months ago on this very topic!

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
that said, as to notions of "the republicans don't (or didn't) have an alternative"---there were some then, and there are some now. to state otherwise is either disingenuous, ridiculously partisan, or a little lazy.


Yes, just like they have a 'a full and complete flat tax' alternative to the Income Tax on the legal books. Only problem is the definition of the phrase 'full and complete'. Since the most well defined flat tax I've read was so full of holes my spaghetti strainer could hold more water! An when I plugged the numbers together for ten different instances of people filing their taxes, each of them were well above the 5-15% the politicians were trying to sell. Mr. Cain's flat tax from 2008 was not a mere 18% but 49%!

Have you seen their healthcare ideas? Its much like their flat tax ideas. A few tons of total bullshit for every molecule of fact or truth. Getting another healthcare system is much like getting a new job when you lose the old one. That you have one lined up when you resign from the current one. Rather than telling your manager is a dickhead, and realize how dumb that was two seconds after your fired without an alternative job lined up. The wise move would be to have a healthcare system that is ready to go without any confusion or hickups. Do you know of a plan that I dont from the GOP/TP?

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
but more importantly, the very idea that the government needs to be involved in healthcare (at least to the extent they are) is something a large part of the country doesn't even buy into as a starter. so an appropriate reply for many of us to "the republicans don't have an alternative" (apart from that they do) is:


The government is involved in every industry in America. From Defense to agriculture. That the US Government buys everything from wooden toothpicks to nuclear carrier fleets, should imply at the least, they are involved with every industry operating in the United States. Since healthcare is an important element in our lives, it makes rational sense for the government to be involved in that industry as well.

Right now, if the polls and understandings of Americans is accurate....

...Most in the nation either want the ACA 'as is' or 'improved'. A small minority wants to remove it. Your welcome to believe a total fantasy that most Americans hate the ACA. Since with your healthcare plan you can see a therapist to help with that schizophrenia your suffering from!

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
so what?? its not in their job description. from the libertarian/conservative perspective, the solutions to problems like this don't belong in governments hands.


Unfortunately for you, moderates and liberals live in this nation as well. And they are the ones that voted in the Democrats whom pushed this bill through Congress and the White House in 2010. Your group was in the minority.

Regulating healthcare, like any other industry is the job of the government. Its in the US Constitution too under the commerce clause. Granted they didnt have as many industries as we do now; but gave the initial building blocks to understand it. Or are conservatives and libertarians against the US Constitution now?

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
to wit---allow more medical schools to exist, which leads to more doctors, which would likely create competition (lowering prices) and increasing access.


This right here shows how little you understand the problems that this nation has as it concerns doctors. Making more doctors is not like helping high school students get their diplomas. It takes years of training. Where do you think many of them get the money for it? The US Government. Want to know how many of them are in 'hellish' levels of debt right now? Future doctors are expected to have higher levels of debt. An this is all just to become a medical doctor. Just because you have an MD does not automatically mean you have a job either. It's said that it takes about a month for every $10K the job pays. Medical Doctors make around $240K-$260K....starting.

A greater inflow of doctors might sound like a way to increase competition; but that would lower their salaries. Even taking into effect the dozens of programs by the US Government to help them succeed financially, they would have their pay reduced. Programs I might add that the GOP/TP have been trying to reduce for years now.

Other industrialize nations do not have this problem. The United States can not go to any of these models for one simple reason: We have ignorant conservatives and libertarians fucking things up without knowing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
as it is---doctors loathe Obamacare, are leaving their practices at a rate higher than in the past and there will be less medical school graduates to fill the positions than usual since the whole fiasco started.


Actually most doctors like the Affordable Care Act. The like it because it allows a greater level of care over a greater number of people. People are able to get diagnosis for deadly diseases early on, so it cuts costly treatments. Helps people access medical drugs and equipment at a far more efficient rate than before. That it allows the one segment in our society to not be forgotten: the poor. Most medical doctors really do give a shit about other people's health. They dislike watching those fall through the cracks. The organization 'Doctors without Borders' did a segment inside the United States once. They were appalled by the level of medical treatment people could get before the ACA.

Thanks to the ACA, doctors can see patients not in the ER, but in their office on a day visit. This has substantially freed up ER operations to handle actual emergency situations. That drugs can be more efficiently monitored in patients now, than before.

You really do not know what your talking about here. Nor with the ACA which you still continue to show ignorance on what is within it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
but its really not essentially about healthcare, or even access to healthcare, its primarily about liberal government growth.


Your against 'free government growth'? Because that is the basis of the word 'liberal'. It comes from the Latin word 'Liberalis' which means 'freedom'. No, you would rather things be like communistic USSR, right?

The ACA does a number of things. One of them is setting up the logistics engine to help define health care plans for Americans. Broken down into four basic categories so the people and the courts understand how any one policy is ordered in relationship to all others. That you try to dumb it down into petty political terms, shows this simply idea is ALSO, beyond your ability to understand.

Ironically enough, the idea to set up just four categories (i.e. bronze, silver, gold, and platinum) are not a liberal idea, but a conservative one. Like the origin's meaning to the word 'liberal' you might consider that not everything in the ACA comes from liberal viewpoints and policy.

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 4:29:34 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Too bad on the court ruling. If the ACA had been shot down perhaps we could have had health care legislation instead of a mandatory insurance tax with no change to the health care system.


Wouldn't that be nice. Why is the IRS involved in healthcare again?


If you actually read the ACA, you would know the answer to that question. Which means, logically, you didn't read the ACA, did you?

I've stated the answer to that question on at least seven different threads. Two of which you have posted on. So you would have read the answer. In fact you would have read it. Since you once asked the question. To which I gave the answer (the facts minus the political stuff). Did you learn anything?

No of course not....


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 4:36:19 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
A friend recently went to the ER with an anxiety episode and is diabetic. One blood test, a short visit by the ER Dr., one x-ray and 4 hours later, he's ok.

$16,500.


I had two outpatient surgeries this year and neither of those cost that much.


Before I had Mass Health: $800 for a visit to the ER. Same issue, after obtaining Mass Health: $0.

Mass Health for those that are not aware, was the model to which the President created his original document. That it helps 98% of US Citizens whom have been living in the state for at least 3 months. Which in comparison to red states, is 'wikked awesome'!

For a few years before the ACA, I often wondered how the poor and the middle class handle medical problems without a system like Mass Health in place. The level of suffering was very depressing. Not that conservatives or libertarians gave a shit.

They are still on their 'holy' quest to find the moral justification to be a selfish asshole!

(in reply to Wayward5oul)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 5:42:01 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Too bad on the court ruling. If the ACA had been shot down perhaps we could have had health care legislation instead of a mandatory insurance tax with no change to the health care system.

I doubt it. While the rest of the developed world addressed it, the US has been debating this since Truman, with only Johnson and Obama moving it forward at all.

Ultimately, it will have to be replaced with single payer. But the rabid right isn't going to allow that until we reach the crisis first, and probably then some.

This, at least, slows the downward cycle of unaffordable health care sinking people, families, and small businesses.

Ironically, it's the plan the Republicans proposed in response to HilaryCare. Such a fucked up political time we live in.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 6:47:35 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
'In this instance, the context and structure of the Act compel us to depart from what would otherwise be the most natural reading of the pertinent statutory phrase'...
SCALIA: 'WORDS NO LONGER HAVE MEANING'...


A FB conversation I was in:
    Me:
      What SCOTUS ruled today was what they believed the law *intended*. And, imo, that's proper.

      I had this understanding from the get-go. I did wonder about it when the Gruber video came out where he said the wording was intentional, and that people wouldn't qualify for subsidies off the Federal exchanges.

      Now, if they keep with the *intent* of a law being the interpretation, we'll be in much better shape, as a nation, in a short while.


    Other Person:
      The only time "intent" should matter is when it matches the words in the law. Intent shouldn't be a cover for poorly worded legislation. Words have meaning and if the meaning doesn't match the supposed
      Intent, or
      Constitutional muster, then that law must be ruled null and void and new, properly written to match intent legislation, must be written, passed in the house and senate, them resulted for executive signature.

      A derelict decision by SCOTUS, such as this, cannot stand,
      Otherwise all laws are void, as the words written in them have no meaning and less value than the pulp they are written on.


    Me:
      But, what you're opening up is that when something is worded, and a phrase or word changes in accepted meaning years/decades/centuries later, you're changing the Constitution outside the only way the Constitution can be changed.

      Do you think the Framers actually intended to give the Federal Government the authority to dictate any potential action that might impact commerce from within one state to within another? That certainly isn't what was intended, but, as the words can be defined, it's what can pass as Constitutional authority.

      But, if we accept intent as helping to define the meaning of a law, the "Interstate Commerce Clause" authorizes a whole lot less than what it's claim to authorize today. The 14th Amendment would no longer allow infants born in the US to illegal aliens to have birthright US Citizenship. The preamble's spelling out of the intent of the US Constitution would no longer take on the idea that the Government is supposed to *provide* the General Welfare, and, as we can read in the Federalist Papers, the Federal Government would, once again, be focused on things that effect the US as a whole, or among States, but all the happenings within a State would revert back to the authority of the State governments.

      The way I see it, the further away each level of government is from the individual, the less it should have less impact on the individual. So, local government should have the most direct impact, County government should deal more with County-wide issues and between/among multiple localities, State government dealing with State-wide issues and between/among multiple Counties, and, finally, the Federal Government dealing with issues of the US, as a whole, and between/among States.


If laws were truly interpreted as to intent, things would be different; much different.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 6:51:50 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Too bad on the court ruling. If the ACA had been shot down perhaps we could have had health care legislation instead of a mandatory insurance tax with no change to the health care system.


Truth!

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Too bad on the court ruling. If the ACA had been shot down perhaps we could have had health care legislation instead of a mandatory insurance tax with no change to the health care system.

The level of ignorance you display here as it concerns the ACA is stunning....
You are NOT an old school conservative....
There is no such thing as a "....mandatory insurance tax..." found anywhere in the text of the ACA. Where did you get that information from? FOX 'news'?


Gee, Joether, perhaps you forgot that the penalty for not having insurance (the "mandatory insurance" part) is only Constitutional under the Federal Government's authority to tax us (making it a "tax").



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 6:55:13 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
A friend recently went to the ER with an anxiety episode and is diabetic. One blood test, a short visit by the ER Dr., one x-ray and 4 hours later, he's ok.
$16,500.


Until he got the bill! Yikes!!


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 6:58:13 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Ironically, it's the plan the Republicans proposed in response to HilaryCare. Such a fucked up political time we live in.


It's not the same. It's similar, but there are many more positive incentives for employers to cover their employees, and for those not covered by employers, to purchase it themselves.

That's the biggest difference between the two plans, though not the only one.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 7:12:22 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
'In this instance, the context and structure of the Act compel us to depart from what would otherwise be the most natural reading of the pertinent statutory phrase'...
SCALIA: 'WORDS NO LONGER HAVE MEANING'...


A FB conversation I was in:
    Me:
      What SCOTUS ruled today was what they believed the law *intended*. And, imo, that's proper.

      I had this understanding from the get-go. I did wonder about it when the Gruber video came out where he said the wording was intentional, and that people wouldn't qualify for subsidies off the Federal exchanges.

      Now, if they keep with the *intent* of a law being the interpretation, we'll be in much better shape, as a nation, in a short while.


    Other Person:
      The only time "intent" should matter is when it matches the words in the law. Intent shouldn't be a cover for poorly worded legislation. Words have meaning and if the meaning doesn't match the supposed
      Intent, or
      Constitutional muster, then that law must be ruled null and void and new, properly written to match intent legislation, must be written, passed in the house and senate, them resulted for executive signature.

      A derelict decision by SCOTUS, such as this, cannot stand,
      Otherwise all laws are void, as the words written in them have no meaning and less value than the pulp they are written on.


    Me:
      But, what you're opening up is that when something is worded, and a phrase or word changes in accepted meaning years/decades/centuries later, you're changing the Constitution outside the only way the Constitution can be changed.

      Do you think the Framers actually intended to give the Federal Government the authority to dictate any potential action that might impact commerce from within one state to within another? That certainly isn't what was intended, but, as the words can be defined, it's what can pass as Constitutional authority.

      But, if we accept intent as helping to define the meaning of a law, the "Interstate Commerce Clause" authorizes a whole lot less than what it's claim to authorize today. The 14th Amendment would no longer allow infants born in the US to illegal aliens to have birthright US Citizenship. The preamble's spelling out of the intent of the US Constitution would no longer take on the idea that the Government is supposed to *provide* the General Welfare, and, as we can read in the Federalist Papers, the Federal Government would, once again, be focused on things that effect the US as a whole, or among States, but all the happenings within a State would revert back to the authority of the State governments.

      The way I see it, the further away each level of government is from the individual, the less it should have less impact on the individual. So, local government should have the most direct impact, County government should deal more with County-wide issues and between/among multiple localities, State government dealing with State-wide issues and between/among multiple Counties, and, finally, the Federal Government dealing with issues of the US, as a whole, and between/among States.


If laws were truly interpreted as to intent, things would be different; much different.


The intent of the law was to deny people in states that didnt set up exchanges federal subsidies, as a form of punishment for failing to embrace Obamacare

Voters in those states were supposed to vote Democrat, out of anger and frustration

But the plan was backfiring due to so many states failing to set up exchanges, a lot of voter anger at the Democrats, and several exchanges failing

The political hacks we have for justices had to re-write the law and change the intent in order to make the ruling that they did, and thus save the Democrats' skin

(They should have read it THEN passed it)



_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 8:12:12 AM   
bounty44


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Joined: 11/1/2014
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on the whole, I tend to ignore the things you write in reply to me because I have so respect for your ability to think or argue (and your pompous condescension as well)...but just an illustration:


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
to wit---allow more medical schools to exist, which leads to more doctors, which would likely create competition (lowering prices) and increasing access.


This right here shows how little you understand the problems that this nation has as it concerns doctors. Making more doctors is not like helping high school students get their diplomas. It takes years of training. Where do you think many of them get the money for it? The US Government. Want to know how many of them are in 'hellish' levels of debt right now? Future doctors are expected to have higher levels of debt. An this is all just to become a medical doctor. Just because you have an MD does not automatically mean you have a job either. It's said that it takes about a month for every $10K the job pays. Medical Doctors make around $240K-$260K....starting.

A greater inflow of doctors might sound like a way to increase competition; but that would lower their salaries. Even taking into effect the dozens of programs by the US Government to help them succeed financially, they would have their pay reduced. Programs I might add that the GOP/TP have been trying to reduce for years now.

Other industrialize nations do not have this problem. The United States can not go to any of these models for one simple reason: We have ignorant conservatives and libertarians fucking things up without knowing it.



no duh Sherlock that "making more doctors is not like helping high school students get their diplomas." how many years it takes doctors to get their diplomas is inconsequential to my point of that it would be good if there were more doctors.

and yes, it probably would lower salaries, and costs as well, which is the whole point (as well as more access) and one reason why the governing bodies regulate and control medical schools to the extent they do. that set-up is one of the things that drives medical school costs and debt also.

I understand we have too few doctors given the demand, that they are swamped with paperwork and debt, they are discouraged for a variety of reasons (primarily government intrusion into their work), and that people go to doctors when they don't need to because insurance pays for it and consumers are removed from the actual cost, which sets up a bad market. does that sound like I have an "understanding of the problems the nation has concerning doctors" brainiac?

other "industrialized nations do not have this problem" because they more or less have socialized medicine, which creates its own set of problems. your blindness to that speaks more to your interest in your political ideology as opposed to any actual concern for people's health.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 6/26/2015 8:32:27 AM >

(in reply to joether)
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RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 8:21:34 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Ja, you are going to find that most of your fucked up shit is 'republicans' and 'conservatives' legislating from the bench.

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(in reply to bounty44)
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RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 10:59:04 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
1) The only Republican alternative to the ACA that I have seen is to let the Insurance companies charge what they want, and give people a tax credit to help pay for it. (Remember Meidcare Part D?) If there is a better Republican plan, please point me to a link. Republicans have talked for years about supporting competition across state lines. They don't REALLY support that. They are too beholden to the Insurance lobby.


You're right, unless...

http://rsc.flores.house.gov/solutions/rsc-betterway.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/GOPHealthPlan_061709.pdf

http://freebeacon.com/issues/republican-congressmen-introduce-new-health-care-reform-proposal/

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-05/a-republican-alternative-to-obamacare-that-s-worth-discussing

http://www.redstate.com/2014/04/02/yes-theres-republican-health-care-plan-bobby-jindals-plan/

Some of those links are different articles about the same plan, so it's not like there are 5 different plans.

quote:

2) I appreciate your medical school idea... But no one is keeping medical schools from existing. And a Doctor shortage is not the main problem


The AMA controls the number of medical schools by being the only accrediting body (a government sponsored monopoly). The number of Dr.'s in the US is kept low to maintain high pay.

quote:

The Healthcare system is complicated rigged (fixed it for you). The Payers created the Fee for Service model, which, once they obtained significant volume, started to collude with the providers to create a "candy store". Hospitals and specialists could charge what they want (I have worked for 3 large ones). Payers didn't mind paying for it, as long as they could pass along the cost to their customers. The costs kept spiraling upward, until it reached a breaking point. Obviously in the individual market.


I've been railing for years that the first step to lowering costs would be to separate the payers from the providers. When one company owns both the payee and the payer, it's merely a shell game where the consumer loses.

Obamacare dictates that 80% of premiums an insurance company charges goes directly towards paying for care. If an insurer doesn't spend at least 80%, the difference is refunded the policy holders. It works to the company's benefit to jack fees up. If an insurer collects $1M, it has to spend $800K to hospitals, leaving $200k to pay for administrative expenses (which there certainly are expenses to be paid). If hospitals double their costs, they'll get $1.6M from the insurers, who will pass that on to the policyholders, along with the administrative costs. But, if $200k paid the administrative costs last year, those costs aren't going to double, even though, technically, the insurer can collect double the premiums as last year. So, that 20% share goes from $200k to $400k while administrative costs don't double. Even under Obamacare, companies can game the system to protect and increase profits.

Non-profit hospitals (hospitals that aren't affiliated with a religion would be "non-prophet" hospitals) are also required to pay out some percentage of their annual charges in charity care. Increasing prices allows for charity care to be charged out at a higher rate, requiring less (relatively) to be given away to meet the requirements.

quote:

Something had to be done. Was ACA the right answer? In the short-term, I would say, YES.


The problem with just doing something is that it usually ends up making things worse. Obamacare is likely going to go down in history as making things worse.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: King v Burwell - 6/26/2015 12:01:13 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
Republicans Fear Victory for Health Care Could Pave Way for Education, Environment
BY ANDY BOROWITZ

The Supreme Court’s decision to preserve Obamacare subsidies has drawn sharp rebukes from Republican Presidential hopefuls, who warn that the victory for health care might eventually pave the way for similar advances in education and the environment.

“The Supreme Court has decided, apparently, that every American should have access to quality health care,” said Senator Ted Cruz (R-Texas). “What if it decided to say the same thing about education? I don’t mean to be an alarmist but, after today, I believe that anything is possible.”


Senator Rand Paul (R-Kentucky) also blasted the Court, telling reporters that “a government that protects health care is one small, dangerous step away from protecting the environment.”

“The nightmare that I have long feared is now suddenly upon us,” Paul said. “Mark my words, we are on a slippery slope toward clean air and water.”

On the campaign trail in Iowa, the former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee raised another doomsday scenario, telling his audience, “If the Court thinks people should be allowed to see a doctor when they want, they probably also think that people should be able to marry anyone they want. My friends, that is not what God intended when He created America.”

Speaking from New York, candidate Donald Trump offered his own scathing critique of the Supreme Court. “You look at them in their robes, and you say, ‘Those robes look freaking cheap,’ ” he said. “When I’m President, we’re getting more expensive robes.”

heeee..yes of course its satire

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(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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