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How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 11:05:28 AM   
shigglyboom


Posts: 110
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I'm wondering - among the masters here, how important is fear play to you? (By this I'm referring not to a sub's anticipation or dread of what's coming, but actual fear.) What about it does or doesn't appeal? Do you find the majority of subs you encounter want this, tolerate it, or count it among their hard limits? How does this not erode a foundation of trust?

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts.

shig
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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 11:10:36 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		To me fear is not really important. Respect and obedience are what I want. I just can't see a relationship based on fear as being successful in the long run.
I have known some in the past who enjoyed being afraid in their relationships, but they always seemed to be having problems in said relationships. I don't think that is a coincidence.

< Message edited by Estring -- 7/16/2006 11:13:13 AM >

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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 11:14:23 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Ruling by fear is no mastery at all.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Estring)
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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 11:47:36 AM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline 		As above, love, trust, willingness, etc etc.

But fear has its place with certain submissives. Fear is a powerful intoxicant and is very useful in play. So fear's importance depends upon the fear drive or enjoyment derived thereof by the sub as well as the kind of dynamic shared with the Dom/me. It is an excellent supplement or spice in the relationship but a poor substitute for the fundamentals.

(in reply to IronBear)
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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 12:19:26 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I don't know what you mean by "fear play."  Do you mean ruling by fear?  If so, I believe that is wrong and damaging and borders on the line of abusive.  If you are talking about edgey kind of play, ie; holding a knife to one's juggulars or sliding it into a mouth, then it is exhillerating for some and down right horrifying for others.  It really depends on the person, I think.  I personally love it, but not everyone does.  What I run into with such activity is that I trust Master so much now, that nothing he does really scares me.  It creates a rush, but not fear.  He could be sliding the tip of his bowie knife across my throat and I will go limp, filled with peace in my trust for him, and arch my head back to expose more neck...

Now....if he dangled a SPIDER in front of me....well that's a whole 'nother ball game!  

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 7/16/2006 12:20:02 PM >

(in reply to shigglyboom)
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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 12:41:27 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline 		you've never heard of fear play?

It is play that is conducted by arrousing the submissive through the use of fear. Some people are able to channel fear to react (somewhat) realistically to fictitious situations. this could be knifeplay, interrogations, or mock abduction/rape to name a few of  thousands. It can also take subtler forms such as the way the Dom/me looks or glares at the sub during the course of play, or the change in tone of voice. Channeling this fear has effects (n some) like channeling the effects of subspace, although I would assume radically different sensations all together.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 12:54:06 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		How important is chocolate?    Fear is just as delicious...

That doesn't mean you have to resort to abuse, or use it in an abusive manner.

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 1:18:54 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Frankly the only fear I would accept and is one I'd never use deliberately is the fear a slave may have that I'll release her and I do not use head games... Boring but I'd rather rule by force of will alone with a support of caring and kindness bundled in. In my book this is different from pushing the envelope where there is an element of fear and by doing so builds up the trust that the slave will be protected by me as long as I am able to do something. If said slave enjoys fear from being in the edge there are plenty of areas I can take her where death is only a step away but is way outside BDSM contexts and is founded in real life experiences.. (Diving in areas inhabited with White Pointers may be a mild example) Fear can keep you alive in extraordinary circumstances and the adrenaline rush is accordingly extraordinory. 

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 1:42:55 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

you've never heard of fear play?

It is play that is conducted by arrousing the submissive through the use of fear. Some people are able to channel fear to react (somewhat) realistically to fictitious situations. this could be knifeplay, interrogations, or mock abduction/rape to name a few of  thousands. It can also take subtler forms such as the way the Dom/me looks or glares at the sub during the course of play, or the change in tone of voice. Channeling this fear has effects (n some) like channeling the effects of subspace, although I would assume radically different sensations all together.


Then we are not talking about real fear. That is the same as the feelings some get riding a rollercoaster or seeing a scary movie. You will always know in the back of your mind that you are not in any real danger. And again, in any relationship, if you actually feared for your life from your Dom's actions, I don't see how that would be a sustainable relationship. That sounds more like an abusive one.  

_____________________________

Boycott Whales!

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 2:31:04 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline 		Correct.

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 4:56:31 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with all the above comments that Mastery through fear is not real mastery.  It also doesn't work in any long term sustainable relationship.

That said, I do question this dialog about "real fear":  Pulpsmack and Estring said
quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

you've never heard of fear play?

It is play that is conducted by arrousing the submissive through the use of fear. Some people are able to channel fear to react (somewhat) realistically to fictitious situations. this could be knifeplay, interrogations, or mock abduction/rape to name a few of  thousands. It can also take subtler forms such as the way the Dom/me looks or glares at the sub during the course of play, or the change in tone of voice. Channeling this fear has effects (n some) like channeling the effects of subspace, although I would assume radically different sensations all together.



ESTRING:  Then we are not talking about real fear. That is the same as the feelings some get riding a rollercoaster or seeing a scary movie. You will always know in the back of your mind that you are not in any real danger. And again, in any relationship, if you actually feared for your life from your Dom's actions, I don't see how that would be a sustainable relationship. That sounds more like an abusive one.  


If you've ever encountered someone with a phobia, you know that without regard to the rationality of the situation, the fear is real, and can have real, serious consequences.  I don't care how much she loves, adores and trusts Me, and how certain she is that she will never suffer any real harm, putting a severely claustrophobic submissive in a coffin and nailing it shut may still produce devastating physiological and emotional effects.  It is not an issue of trust at that level, but one of a bone-deep phobic response.

E

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 5:34:01 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Greetings Emperor,

I abso-bloody-lutely agree with your comments about phobias.. I'm both claustrophobic and arachnophobic in the former case there are those who saw the wreckage done when some clown locked me in a closet. I wont let anyone tie or cuff me as long as I am conscious either..


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 6:05:30 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Fear can be so hot...

But using fear to control someone is pathetic.

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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 6:08:51 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		If you've ever encountered someone with a phobia, you know that without regard to the rationality of the situation, the fear is real, and can have real, serious consequences.  I don't care how much she loves, adores and trusts Me, and how certain she is that she will never suffer any real harm, putting a severely claustrophobic submissive in a coffin and nailing it shut may still produce devastating physiological and emotional effects.  It is not an issue of trust at that level, but one of a bone-deep phobic response.

E

And that's exactly my point. You will have a poor relationship if that is what it is based on.

_____________________________

Boycott Whales!

(in reply to Emperor1956)
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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 7:50:25 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Let me give a better response.

Fear as a word covers a lot of territory.  Abusers keep women under control by fear.  Passive aggressive has a lot to do with control by fear.  None of that is good or healthy fear.

I try to remove all of that fear from my relationships although I still at times struggle with a bit of passive aggressive behavior and other issues.

Fear as fun is a whole different kettle of monkeys.  I love getting inside someones mind and playing them.  However, it is a dangerious game to play and depending on what you are playing with requires a top who knows what he is doing, knows how to and has dealt with serious fuckups AND a bottom who knows that mistakes happen and if they do they are not anybodies fault.

Of course nobody remember that at the time but hopefull they quickly get back to that place.

Fear can be as simple a mindfuck as branding someone with a frozen poker, a foreign pecker, or a long choking.  It is walking the edge between doing harm and not, violating trust and not, or some other dark thing.


(in reply to shigglyboom)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 7:56:45 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline 		Those that I have discussed/considered fear play with had nothing to do with phobias. One might say something like "I get off at feeling a knife on my skin, and I am pretty much ok with everything else I can think of except being locked in a closet." I might inquire out of curiosity and hear some inconceivable childhood story of hers. Naturally she never sees the inside of  box or closet. To me this is about growth and trust. It is (hopefully) about returning her in a better condition than when she started, which is not possible if you don't respect her trust and her natural fears. 

The same could be said about panic and safe words. Surely, playing the overly sadistic asshole, you might force the panicked sub (now calling the safeword) through the session, but how is that going to play out afterwards? Is that sub ever going to trust you again? Is your city/ lifestlye community so large that reputations are slow/impossible to form? Such conduct is a great way to put you on the blacklist for good. Then again, if you are merely restrained from performing such horrifying acts by the negative consequences that might occur, you don't get what D/s is about in the first place.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 7/16/2006 7:59:48 PM >

(in reply to Estring)
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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 8:59:42 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Fast Reply

If you are one of those people who get a woody when sadistically trying to control someone with shit in their pants fear and who has absolure disregard if you destroy that person in the course of your fear control, I maybe ableto give you addresses oforganizations or people who may give you a professional start. Yopu'll need to move overseas and renounce your US citizenship and live in the shadows But that would be little loss compared to the pleasure and power you will feel when you smell the stench of some one crapping in their pants when they see you enter a room....

< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/16/2006 9:01:10 PM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to shigglyboom)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 9:14:03 PM   
gypsyssoul


Posts: 127
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Balti., Maryland, living in Summerville SC
Status: offline
:: goes out on a limb .. and answers ... her opinion ..
 
fear is a big emotion for many ..
and in a controlled trusted

environment
 ... can be alot of fun ..
that feeling in the pit of your stomach ..
yummy
or else scary movies and roller coasters ... would go out of business ...
that thrill ... that edge ...
if that is what you speak of ....
 
:: goes back to her corner ... to read more


< Message edited by gypsyssoul -- 7/16/2006 9:22:11 PM >

_____________________________

~~"I have always sought this other side, but like a flame I dare not touch, For like forbidden fruits of wild .. just one taste would be to much"...
~~ blessed be

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RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 9:30:55 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		Pulpsmack (who did NOT endorse this behavior): 
quote:

The same could be said about panic and safe words. Surely, playing the overly sadistic asshole, you might force the panicked sub (now calling the safeword) through the session, but how is that going to play out afterwards?


Not if you have a shred of integrity.  This is the sort of breach that only a morally and mentally deficient scumbag would commit.

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: How important is fear? - 7/16/2006 10:05:21 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Shig,

I think you need to rephrase your question and clarify if you are talking ruling with fear as a way of control or playing with fear as another form of BDSM play.

(in reply to shigglyboom)
Profile   Post #: 20
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