RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion

RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

Owner59 -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 7:44:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 This hate filled "Christian" has every right to her views..... http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/watch_indiana_woman_s_facebook_video_meltdown_rant_over_marriage_goes_viral Just not the right to impose them on me. If there was a god.....She would put me in the same room with this entertaining freak. omg i had tears, I saw her last night...Ive never wanted to cuddle someone so bad....n then close the buckles on her wraparaound jacket [sm=applause.gif] You should write books....if you aren` already.....

mnottertail -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 7:44:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail If religious freedom is what everyone wants, I am all in!!!! Remember, Odins followers loved to slaughter christians. I expect all of the apologists for this other asswipe will support this freedom? Plundering is a tenant of my religion. Religious freedom now! You go right ahead, but don't forget that for many shooting looters is a tenant of theirs. Ah, but you are from the south; experts in losing and surrendering.

Owner59 -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 7:46:43 AM)
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Real0ne -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 8:13:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 This hate filled "Christian" has every right to her views..... http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/watch_indiana_woman_s_facebook_video_meltdown_rant_over_marriage_goes_viral Just not the right to impose them on me. If there was a god.....She would put me in the same room with this entertaining freak. The thing that puzzles me is that I cant tell who is the bigger drama queen?

Real0ne -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 8:17:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813. Instead of learning about American law they learned 'The American Dream'

Real0ne -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 8:23:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01 Thomas Jefferson (of course was famous for coining the phrase "Separation of Church and State") spoke (or wrote) about religious freedom often. I think Thomas Jefferson foresaw "Religious Liberties" laws for businesses when he said this: [b]“Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the “wall of separation between church and state,” therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. We have solved … the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.” I definitely think he would consider granting businesses "religious freedom" a law establishing a religion. Note he says "freedom of religion affects every INDIVIDUAL" (not business) And then there is this: *State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights.* How prophetic. My own opinion. well pretty much like I explained in your 14th amendment thread, the state comes in through the back door and creates a situation where they can claim an 'interest'. Any benefit received from the state has strings attached. Once the programs are in place and the ground work all laid out they can by contract and equity law impose anything they want upon you. you should see how impossible it is to get a jury trial in a small claims case in my state. they put the bar so high the average person is completely disconnected from the system. Oh and that jefferson quote will really piss the atheists off because they think they are special and have no religion because they dont understand the elements of religion lol Yes the state has created a religion and impose on everyone through their programs, ohaha care comes to mind. That one is the biggest ass kicker of them all. time to move out LOL Oh yeh, and the main 'vehicle' used is commerce. the 'commingling' of commerce with everything, since everything can have a price put on it even a human life, since they need their slaves to pay off that 18 trillion national debt they used to fund their imperialist terrorism on against sovereign nations. The one thing the brits did right is the separation of church and state in their court system, at least for a short time in history, unlike the united states who have chosen to violate the religious rights of people nationwide at the end of a barrel of a gun because people in this country dont understand the elements of what an established religion is.

Zonie63 -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 8:24:30 AM)
FR Wow, that video was really something. Total meltdown. "They're ISLAAAAMIC!" I can admire one's passions and convictions in one's religious beliefs, but the thing that always gives them away is how inconsistent they are in practicing their beliefs. They cherry-pick which sins they're going to get upset about, while turning the blind eye to sins like greed, wrath, envy, and pride. If they had any sense of integrity at all, their beliefs would dictate that they should be 1000x more angry at Wall Street and their sins. That's why they have no credibility on this or any other issue.

Real0ne -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 8:28:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 FR Wow, that video was really something. Total meltdown. "They're ISLAAAAMIC!" I can admire one's passions and convictions in one's religious beliefs, but the thing that always gives them away is how inconsistent they are in practicing their beliefs. They cherry-pick which sins they're going to get upset about, while turning the blind eye to sins like greed, wrath, envy, and pride. If they had any sense of integrity at all, their beliefs would dictate that they should be 1000x more angry at Wall Street and their sins. That's why they have no credibility on this or any other issue. yeh just like the government, but fortunately one woman is not in a position to make it into law and enforce it at the end of a barrel of a gun and UNCONSTITUTIONALLY violate the kliens religious beliefs in support of the gays religious beliefs by establishing a religion. Apparently some people feel that is just. At least till that federal gun is pointed at their heads.

Zonie63 -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 8:55:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 FR Wow, that video was really something. Total meltdown. "They're ISLAAAAMIC!" I can admire one's passions and convictions in one's religious beliefs, but the thing that always gives them away is how inconsistent they are in practicing their beliefs. They cherry-pick which sins they're going to get upset about, while turning the blind eye to sins like greed, wrath, envy, and pride. If they had any sense of integrity at all, their beliefs would dictate that they should be 1000x more angry at Wall Street and their sins. That's why they have no credibility on this or any other issue. yeh just like the government, but fortunately one woman is not in a position to make it into law and enforce it at the end of a barrel of a gun and UNCONSTITUTIONALLY violate the kliens religious beliefs in support of the gays religious beliefs by establishing a religion. Apparently some people feel that is just. At least till that federal gun is pointed at their heads. What "religious beliefs" are being addressed here? If no one can cite any exact words in the Bible which specifically say "Thou shalt not bake a cake for a gay marriage," then they don't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to citing their "religious beliefs." There is no such belief in their Scriptures, so they're just making it up out of thin air.

Real0ne -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 9:03:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 FR Wow, that video was really something. Total meltdown. "They're ISLAAAAMIC!" I can admire one's passions and convictions in one's religious beliefs, but the thing that always gives them away is how inconsistent they are in practicing their beliefs. They cherry-pick which sins they're going to get upset about, while turning the blind eye to sins like greed, wrath, envy, and pride. If they had any sense of integrity at all, their beliefs would dictate that they should be 1000x more angry at Wall Street and their sins. That's why they have no credibility on this or any other issue. yeh just like the government, but fortunately one woman is not in a position to make it into law and enforce it at the end of a barrel of a gun and UNCONSTITUTIONALLY violate the kliens religious beliefs in support of the gays religious beliefs by establishing a religion. Apparently some people feel that is just. At least till that federal gun is pointed at their heads. What "religious beliefs" are being addressed here? If no one can cite any exact words in the Bible which specifically say "Thou shalt not bake a cake for a gay marriage," then they don't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to citing their "religious beliefs." There is no such belief in their Scriptures, so they're just making it up out of thin air. The kliens religion requires they do not get involved or participate in supporting gay activities The gay religion demands that they do participate. The government has enforced the gay religion over the kliens religion. Hence the government just established a religious precedent in law. the governments decision VIOLATED the kliens right to EXERCISE THEIR RELIGION by establishing the gay religion as the law of the land as a consequence of their decision. quote: The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting Its very simple.

Zonie63 -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 9:30:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne The kliens religion requires they do not get involved or participate in supporting gay activities But is that what their religious laws actually say? If their religion requires that they dissociate themselves from all sinful activities (being gay is not the only "sin" there is you know), then by all rights, they should drop out of society entirely and not participate in commerce or politics at all. quote: The gay religion demands that they do participate. There is no "gay religion" that I'm aware of. Some Christian denominations seem more accepting of gays than others, though. quote: The government has enforced the gay religion over the kliens religion. Hence the government just established a religious precedent in law. the governments decision VIOLATED the kliens right to EXERCISE THEIR RELIGION by establishing the gay religion as the law of the land. Its very simple. The government's role is not to establish a religion, but to enforce the Constitution which applies to all.

eulero83 -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 9:53:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail If religious freedom is what everyone wants, I am all in!!!! Remember, Odins followers loved to slaughter christians. I expect all of the apologists for this other asswipe will support this freedom? Plundering is a tenant of my religion. Religious freedom now! You go right ahead, but don't forget that for many shooting looters is a tenant of theirs. I thought you were christian

BamaD -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 9:57:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail If religious freedom is what everyone wants, I am all in!!!! Remember, Odins followers loved to slaughter christians. I expect all of the apologists for this other asswipe will support this freedom? Plundering is a tenant of my religion. Religious freedom now! You go right ahead, but don't forget that for many shooting looters is a tenant of theirs. I thought you were christian A I didn't say me. B When you research thou shalt no kill you find that it says thou shalt not murder. Big difference.

Real0ne -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 10:05:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne The kliens religion requires they do not get involved or participate in supporting gay activities But is that what their religious laws actually say? If their religion requires that they dissociate themselves from all sinful activities (being gay is not the only "sin" there is you know), then by all rights, they should drop out of society entirely and not participate in commerce or politics at all. quote: The gay religion demands that they do participate. There is no "gay religion" that I'm aware of. Some Christian denominations seem more accepting of gays than others, though. quote: The government has enforced the gay religion over the kliens religion. Hence the government just established a religious precedent in law. the governments decision VIOLATED the kliens right to EXERCISE THEIR RELIGION by establishing the gay religion as the law of the land. Its very simple. The government's role is not to establish a religion, but to enforce the Constitution which applies to all. Sure there is a gay religion, just like atheism is a religion. If you elect to make law supporting the 'moral' beliefs of a gay person (religious standing) and impose it over the 'moral' beliefs of a christian (religious standing) you would be establishing the gay persons 'moral' beliefs (as the law of the land through legal precedent) while dismissing the christians 'moral' beliefs, hence enforcing the gay persons right to exercise their religious beliefs and simultaneously violating the christians right to exercise their religious beliefs. This falls precisely within the religion v religion argument. It drives to the substance of matter, not the over generalized characterization you posted in rebuttal to my use of 'gay religion' merely as an easy and brief 'figure of speech' to describe the situation. Religion is a fundamentally the moral set of beliefs that one uses to govern ones self.

Aylee -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 11:02:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01 Thomas Jefferson (of course was famous for coining the phrase "Separation of Church and State") spoke (or wrote) about religious freedom often. I think Thomas Jefferson foresaw "Religious Liberties" laws for businesses when he said this: [b]“Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the “wall of separation between church and state,” therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. We have solved … the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.” I definitely think he would consider granting businesses "religious freedom" a law establishing a religion. Note he says "freedom of religion affects every INDIVIDUAL" (not business) And then there is this: *State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights.* How prophetic. My own opinion. I thought that we were not supposed to like anything slave owners did or said. Certainly not hold them up as a model. P.S. Businesses are treated by the law as individuals because otherwise they could not contract or be safe from things like searches and seizures without a warrant or be held accountable for things. Think of what REAL corporate warfare would look like.

mnottertail -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 11:22:14 AM)
Oh, really? Have you seen corporations go to jail then?

Zonie63 -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 11:48:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Sure there is a gay religion, just like atheism is a religion. Atheism is not a religion. There are gays who are atheists, and gays who are religious. Of those who are religious, they're not necessarily all of the same religion. quote: If you elect to make law supporting the 'moral' beliefs of a gay person (religious standing) and impose it over the 'moral' beliefs of a christian (religious standing) you would be establishing the gay persons 'moral' beliefs (as the law of the land through legal precedent) while dismissing the christians 'moral' beliefs, hence enforcing the gay persons right to exercise their religious beliefs and simultaneously violating the christians right to exercise their religious beliefs. This falls precisely within the religion v religion argument. The only trouble is that the religion vs. religion argument seems to imply that Freedom of Religion is the only right citizens have in this society. All of these rights have to operate in harmony and balance with each other for society to operate efficiently. This issue has also brought up property rights, the right to do commerce, the right of citizens to not be discriminated against. Even if it's a religion vs. religion issue, I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you're trying to make it. What if a Mormon-owned business decided that they wanted to refuse service to Baptists? Should they be allowed to do that? Even prior to the court's decision, it has been perfectly legal to be gay. It's perfectly legal to have gay relationships. This means that, in the eyes of the law, they are citizens with equal rights and privileges as any other citizen in society. It doesn't even matter what a person's religion is or what their moral beliefs are. The law is the law, and we all have to face up to it sooner or later. Even if there was a gay religion, it would still be just as legal as any other religion, and the same principle would apply. quote: Religion is a fundamentally the moral set of beliefs that one uses to govern ones self. Perhaps, although I think that cuts to the very heart of the matter here. Exactly what religious beliefs are being violated here? You say that the Christians' right to exercise their religious beliefs is being violated. Setting aside the Constitution and secular law for the moment, looking at it solely as a theological matter and within the framework of Christian beliefs, what do the Scriptures actually say on this matter, and what are a Christian's obligations as a member of a secular society where the law requires that all citizens be treated fairly and equally? In another forum I visit occasionally, the question was raised as to what Jesus would do if He was working at a bakery and a gay couple came in wanting a cake for their wedding. He'd probably bake them the cake, but it would taste as bland as a communion wafer.

BamaD -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 2:02:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne The kliens religion requires they do not get involved or participate in supporting gay activities But is that what their religious laws actually say? If their religion requires that they dissociate themselves from all sinful activities (being gay is not the only "sin" there is you know), then by all rights, they should drop out of society entirely and not participate in commerce or politics at all. quote: The gay religion demands that they do participate. There is no "gay religion" that I'm aware of. Some Christian denominations seem more accepting of gays than others, though. quote: The government has enforced the gay religion over the kliens religion. Hence the government just established a religious precedent in law. the governments decision VIOLATED the kliens right to EXERCISE THEIR RELIGION by establishing the gay religion as the law of the land. Its very simple. The government's role is not to establish a religion, but to enforce the Constitution which applies to all. And when the government establishes what is and is not (a nonviolent) expression of that religion they are establishing a religion, you forget that the same part of the 1st also prohibits the free exercise thereof.

PeonForHer -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 2:06:33 PM)
quote: The one thing the brits did right is the separation of church and state in their court system, at least for a short time in history, unlike the united states who have chosen to violate the religious rights of people nationwide at the end of a barrel of a gun because people in this country dont understand the elements of what an established religion is. I'm glowing with pride at that compliment, RO. However ... you forgot to mention our natural sense of rhythm?

Owner59 -> RE: Jefferson on Freedom of Religion (7/2/2015 7:32:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 FR Wow, that video was really something. Total meltdown. "They're ISLAAAAMIC!" I can admire one's passions and convictions in one's religious beliefs, but the thing that always gives them away is how inconsistent they are in practicing their beliefs. They cherry-pick which sins they're going to get upset about, while turning the blind eye to sins like greed, wrath, envy, and pride. If they had any sense of integrity at all, their beliefs would dictate that they should be 1000x more angry at Wall Street and their sins. That's why they have no credibility on this or any other issue. The god of Abraham and Jacob is the same god of Mohamed. And not for nothing,Jesus didn`t have anything to say about homosexuals. I`m sure they existed.

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875