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joether -> RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake (7/7/2015 11:47:08 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KenDckey
http://www.progressive.org/zinn070309.html
Yes
The funny part is, it was liberal whom wanted a new government for the colonies. "modern day' conservatives would be that era's Tories. Free from the King's rules and laws that were stifling things in the colonies, would be a very liberal viewpoint. Of course I forget that you have never looked up either word in the dictionary and only have the "FOX 'news'" versions of the words. That places 'conservative' in the best possible light, and 'liberal' in quite the opposite. You should try studying words in politically neutral terms before arguing stuff....
quote:
ORIGINAL: KenDckey
http://louderwithcrowder.com/liberals-now-say-american-revolution-a-bad-thing-15-reasons-theyre-wrong/
No
1. And yet, there are plenty of instances in which after those people got here, they were attacked, and even killed if they did not convert. Or at least acknowledge that certain religios people should hold more sway over things than ordinary Americans. Its an ugly truth not many like to acknowledge. But sermons were used on the lead up to the American Civil War, that painted the federal government as a tyrannical overlord spreading tyranny Southward! Why would those holy men lie?
2. Actually the type of government was not really well define in the 18th century. That there had been other democratic republics in existence undermine's this author's understanding of history. Never heard of Pirates? Many pirates would elect someone to be the captain whom would rule the ship. That is the 'definition' of a 'democratic republic government'. Until the captain behaved in some other mannerism soon after that. Likewise, you should have a look at the Iroquois Confederation.
If you were to ask most Americans what a 'Democratic Republic' is, they'd fail the question. Some of those Americans would also state we had a Constitutional Republic, since they are conservatives whom had the DNC.
3. An without the US Government, would we have those rights?
Yeah, we have such 'high human right' standards. The Bush administration is known to have violated the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments with regards to the subject matter of 'enemy combatants'. That conservatives tried and still try to use the argument "The Ends Justify The Means' when this topic is up in any discussion. That not bring it up, or dodging it when it does, shows a deep level of intellectual dishonesty.
Third, the concept that the author uses, 'endowed with certain unalienable rights by their [our] Creator', comes from the Declaration of Independence....NOT....the US Constitution.
4. The author has a very simplistic understanding to the nature of tyranny. In the founding father's day, the belief that only the government could become tyrannical. In modern America, its understood that is not the only entity. Very wealth individuals, multi-national corporations, large religious groups.....AND....government could behave in tyrannical ways. That any of these, groups of these, or all of them could work towards a viewpoint that is counter to the United States of America. That conservatives do not acknowledge this, should a deep lack of understanding. Since they are supporting the entities whom wish to bring such tyranny down upon Americans even right now!
5. How many of you could rattle off everything, or mostly everything on the Bill of Rights? Most Americans couldn't get 2/5 concepts in the 1st amendment. The gun nuts seem to forget there is a whole sentence before "...The right to bear arms shall not be infringed." in the second amendment. Or that if your in a court case for a damage worth more than $20, you can require a trial by jury (as per the 7th amendment). This author believes there are only ten amendments at current.
Unfortunately there are seventeen more. Americans know LESS about those amendments then the ones in the Bill of Rights. And they are younger amendments than the ones in the Bill of Rights!
Is the United States a free nation? There is a thread idea right there. An I suspect this author would be at heavy odds with most of those in that thread!
6. An where did the founding fathers get those ideas for the nation's concept originally? Just 'thought them up at the pub, right?" Even after the nation was formed, it got ideas for things through events and people in the world. Or are you going to say no country of the world outlawed Alcohol before 1919 (as per the 18th amendment)?
7. That there are millionaires has nothing to do with the nation being free. There were millionaires in Nazi Germany (1930-1940s). The Soviet Union (USSR) had millionaires. So does China. Saddam Hussein was a multi-millionaire. So is that guy in North Korea....
There are also very poor people in America. That for every homeless person, we have enough food to feed twenty and house another 36; yet allow that person neither.
There is nothing forcing these rich people in America to help the less fortunate out of tyrannical financial bondage on their own. In fact, many of them are doing all sorts of things to lessen the government's ability to obtain money from them, or help the poor in the nation. I did mention very wealthy people as one source of tyrannical power, didn't I?
8. If this was true, all those maids that work in hotels located in cities should be multi-millionaires. Reality is, those maids are....STILL....maids, working minimal wage, doing 50+ hours and in some cases living on government programs for survival.
There are many people that work really hard and gain very little. An then there are people that don't work at all, and have many millions. We have people that worked their whole life, but towards retirement some horrible event takes place that wipes that all out. The aftermath is the individual has nothing to show for it.
Yes every one in 100,000 individuals might become very rich or wealth. What happens to the other 99,999? The author seems to ignore reality....
9. Actually the nation was founded on several things from several sources. The Holy Bible was one of them, but was neither the most important nor the least. The author ignores all the unscrupulous and evil people that existed and still exist in the nation. If this is not true, explain why all the laws were created? Why regulations created to prevent the financial sector from taking advantage of ignorant people?
Placing the United States, then or now, as the prime example of freedom and rights, is either showing ignorance or arrogance. Plenty of nations had good standards. Throughout the nation's history, there are plenty of moments when things were not so 'virtuous' as the author claims (Jim Crow, McCarthism, Torturing Enemy Combatants, etc). Correcting those things took time, many lives. Some of it still lives on, only under a different name or concept (i.e. the milita man movement of the 1990's is the modern era Tea Party).
10. An where did the ideas for some of those things originate? To place a man on the moon required the knowledge that the earth (and its moon indirectly) orbit the sun. Or was Copernicus a US Citizen between 1473-1543? Each technology is built upon from the idea of something else discovered. There are discoveries made that would not have an application to them for years or decades later.
Many nations invented stuff that most Americans would be surprised at. That this nation invented things too, should not be ignored. To bad we can not keep up with discoveries and inventions today. We can thank the GOP/TP for slipping away from 'innovation' as the prime means to make a profit. Or have you all forgotten which political/religious party prevented us from studying Stem Cell Research? Or finding a cure for Ebola? Or am I mistaken that that political party has been against science? Since many forum threads place conservatives, libertarians, Republicans and Tea Party as primary opposition to the Theory of Evolution (used in medicine), and the Theory of Climate Change (used in biology, physics, and chemistry)?
11. Like numbers 7 & 8 above, this is a by product of events, NOT, which came before the events. Many movies today are actually filmed in other nations. How many places is HBO's 'Game of Thrones' filmed in America? How about the TV shows 'Supernatural' and others?
You can blame it all on taxes or other laws requiring to pay people money; or it could just be film producers wish to set their location elsewhere from the United States of America. And it has nothing to do with the politics and laws of the nation.
Many Anima movies were never made in the USA either! I still like Robotech, Appleseed, and many others.
12. Yeah, because when I think of 'The American Revolution' and all the important things to come after it, I arrive at sports teams....
While my Patriots can beat down most other football teams, lets not forget its a company trying to make a profit. That baseball from the 1950's has changed much over the years. The rules are mostly the same, but the background infrastructure is totally different! Or are you going to tell me NASCAR drivers make $60K a year?
If only we paid our teachers better, imagine the reality: "Ok kids, we are studying the ruins in the ancient world this month, everyone have their plane ticket and luggage? We'll be on location rather than some stiffling boring class room!"
13. What a bunch of bullshit!
That the author thinks that other nations do not have access to technology, equipment, or resources. If what the author states is 'true', than Iran should not be anywhere near nuclear weapons ability, anymore than the United States was in 1834!
Cities in America are like cities elsewhere. They have many problems, limited resources, and people that demand all sorts of things.
14. It sounds nice, but right now, there is a whole segment of Americans that wish to disallow anyone to immigrant to the nation. That people immigrant to other nations from the United States for all sorts of reasons is not being honestly explained here.
The hard reality is that for a certain portion of those whom immigrant to the United States, life remains hard and horrible for them. Maybe for the same reasons. Maybe fore new ones. An we have the Republican/Tea Party that goes out of its way to help make those people's lives a living hell....
15. Actually there were moments in which those in the colonies pushed out the King's rule peacefully before the Revolution. A piece of history not well known, but you can find it with the right search criteria. If America is known from freedom, why is it the Irish allowed gay marriage before a recent US Supreme Court case? After all, I would think that 'freedom loving Texas' would be on the 'bandwagon' of allowing gay marriage (and it was a hold out state).
To say that the revolution gave us freedoms, is also a bit naive at best, or just ignorant at worst. Were women considered 'as free' as the men in the late 18th century? How about those black slaves? Each nationality of immigrant whom was the 'butt of jokes and hindrances'? Are people allowed to vote without showing their ID card?
quote:
ORIGINAL: KenDckey
What do you think?
I think it was a high price to pay, but the payoff allowed others in the world to gain their freedom from their monarchs. The job isn't done throughout the world. But we started it.
I think if this author's piece was made as a result of a 4th grade teacher's history assignment; it might get a passing grade. Unfortunately you are on a forum with people that hold college degrees; the requirement of understanding is much higher. Therefore this piece deserves nothing but a 'Z' grade (meaning the author should repeat the 4th grade).
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