Topping from the Bottom

Topping from the Bottom (Full Version)

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gentlypleze -> Topping from the Bottom (7/16/2006 2:54:39 PM)
I have a question for the Dominants. What do you perceive as topping from the bottom? I'm new to this lifestyle, and only have a little experience, but it's a great fear of mine. Where does it cross over, from sharing your thoughts and feelings, to "topping from the bottom"?

MistressStchWich -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/16/2006 3:08:35 PM)
Much of the time it is all in the delivery for me. If a sub/slave begins to show confidence and its body language or tone of voice or choice of words projects equality to the Top, attempting to manipulate the situation, or voicing a preference or concern in a manner that is authoritative toward a Top, this- in *My dictionary* - is topping from the bottom. A bottom should always be perceived as humble and submissive and show deference to a Top. Perhaps petitioning for an open discussion period with your Top in which you explain your concerns and seek His/Her definition (with various examples of what They mean by Their responses) it will be easier for you to know when something you might need or want to share with Him/Her could be misinterpretted as topping. While certain behaviors are universally considered topping from the bottom, each Top has Their own dictionary. It is great to seek input; but in the end, only your Top can answer that question for you. Good luck and I hope you will enjoy years of service to your Top.

Estring -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/16/2006 3:22:05 PM)
I would agree that how you do it makes all the difference. A Master should set the parameters of how and when you should voice your opinions. If you follow these, then you needn't worry. Keeping focused on his needs and not yours will also help to insure you never cross the line.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/16/2006 3:46:01 PM)
To me the issue is whether the sub is being manipulative. That is definitely topping from the bottom. Sharing your thoughts and feelings, of course, is not topping from the bottom, and in fact it's essential to a workable d/s relationship. Ask yourself whether you're saying something or asking something just in order to get an honest response, or whether there is a covert or manipulative purpose to what you're saying. If there's a covert purpose, you're probably topping from the bottom. What Estring said is very true too. If the sub voices his or her thoughts and feelings within the parameters set by the dom, there's no topping from the bottom. But if he or she speaks without permission, interrupts, brings up issues that have already been resolved, and so on, that's not remaining within the dom's parameters.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/16/2006 3:52:54 PM)
Perhaps an example might help. If a submissive asked in the scene, "Please, Ma'am, hit me harder," I would, especially if we were new partners, 'casue I tend to take it slow and light with unfamiliar people. But, if the same submissive said, "Is that all you got?" the scene would stop immediately and he/she would be sent packing. It's all in how it's asked and/or presented, usually. Does that help? Master Fire

LadyHugs -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/16/2006 4:18:41 PM)
Dear gentlypleze, Ladies and Gentlemen; In my mind's eye, Topping from the bottom is micro-management by the submissive over the Top/Dominant. Being a novice, I would want feed back as to get onto the same page communication wise. I also promote feed back as far as pain goes as well, as each person has a different pain threshhold. So, until there is an language and boundaries are found there will be a bit of awkward communication exchanges. That said, my mind's eye sees micro-management by a submissive/bottom by, never being satisfied by the Dominant/Top; to the point you as a bottom directs how much, how little, how hard, how soft every stroke of the flogger, etc; as well as to what you will do and won't do to an extreme beyond personal safety and preference boundries but, as far as to control the dominant's every response as to rob the dominant of the authority and power as to be in that role. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

Emperor1956 -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/16/2006 4:47:38 PM)
quote: What do you perceive as topping from the bottom? I'm new to this lifestyle, and only have a little experience, but it's a great fear of mine. Where does it cross over, from sharing your thoughts and feelings, to "topping from the bottom"? I'm going to go in a bit different direction with gentlypleze's question. I think that LadyHugs, LaM and Estring have given good answers, and I'm sure many others will weigh in. My thoughts are on why the OP added the highlighted words (above)? Why should a novice submissive fear "topping from the bottom"? My answer does not place the Dominant community in a very good light. We have made "topping from the bottom" an evil, and blown it all out of proportion (indeed, it is often the justification to send a submissive packing). A novice exploring his or her submission is learning, and people learning make mistakes. Indeed, ideally, they learn from their mistakes. I would not expect a novice bicycle rider to understand the mechanics of balance, pedal strokes and braking without some experience on the bike; why would I (or any thinking Top) assume that a novice submissive understands the effect of micromanagement (I do love that analogy) on his/her Top? Yes, repeated manipulation is something that must be addressed (in any relationship, not just a power-oriented relationship). But the idea of novice subs trembling that any questioning or direction to their (often equally novice) Doms troubles me. Topping from the bottom, whatever your definition in your relationship, is negative; falling off the bike is negative. But neither is grounds for stripping the chain off the vehicle and abandoning ship. Two other related thoughts: Directly to MasterFireMaam, who said quote: If a submissive asked in the scene, "Please, Ma'am, hit me harder," I would, especially if we were new partners, 'casue I tend to take it slow and light with unfamiliar people. But, if the same submissive said, "Is that all you got?" the scene would stop immediately and he/she would be sent packing. It's all in how it's asked and/or presented, usually. I have a very different view, here. Perhaps this is a bratty sub, and her/his "Is this all you got" is an intentional play/trigger for the Dominant? I've known very experienced submissives to "talk back" in a loving, playful manner to Me, giving Me no feeling that I was being topped or manipulated. It is all, again, based on what a given couple's parameters are. And finally, not to hijack this thread, but maybe as fodder for another, all of us in the scene know about "topping from the bottom". Why then don't we refer to a Top/Dominant who refuses to take control when offered, who is manipulative in his/her relationship with the sub/bottom, who fails to "step up" as needed for His/Her charges as "bottoming from the Top"? I've never heard it used, but I like it. E.

sissyanniep -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/16/2006 9:23:26 PM)
......

wandering4u -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 3:48:14 AM)
It all depends on what is acceptable within the relationship. I expect some feedback from a sub but there are clearly defined times for "play" and "non-play" related comments. It is the manipulation by the bottom that is key. If she is trying to govern my behavior then it becomes an issue.

Focus50 -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 4:12:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gentlypleze I have a question for the Dominants. What do you perceive as topping from the bottom? I'm new to this lifestyle, and only have a little experience, but it's a great fear of mine. Where does it cross over, from sharing your thoughts and feelings, to "topping from the bottom"? I perceive it as a dominant who's unable to exert the required level of control over his/her particular submissive. I often say D/s (or M/s) relationships are about control and for that dynamic to work properly, the Dom/me needs to have control of the sub. But it's not enough for the two to just agree the dom's boss, the dom has to also measure up and prove themself capable of taking and holding that control. And when they don't or can't, subs instinctively push the boundaries (mostly without realising it) and start acting bratty. The thing is, in D/s, someone needs to be in charge and it starts with the dom/me. A child who habitually throws tantrums etc does so because its become a tried and true method of getting their way. Therefore, the child actually has a measure of control over the parent. And so it is with "topping from the bottom" - the sub has also discovered the dom/me is unable to take full control. By taking control, the sub is also out of control and the discovery of this new found power and freedom usually ensures the sub becomes miserable as a consequence. And the dom/me isn't feeling any better because they now have the "brat from hell" on their hands. Conclusion: topping from the bottom is entirely the fault of the top, and shouldn't be a fear of your own. And when I say "fault", I don't necessarily mean the dom/me is deliberately not fulfilling his/her responsibilities, it may just mean they're in over their head; that maybe they're simply not well matched to the particular submissive. If your dom/me can't control you, you can't stop yourself being a disrespectful brat because it's the dom/me who's obligated to keep you in line. You serve your Dom/me by need, choice and respect - that's you submitting. The Dom/me commands and expects your service and respect through their own level of dominance and power of self - they're dominating. It "crosses over" when their control wanes.... Focus.

CrappyDom -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 7:34:06 AM)
If you are new, you SHOULD be topping from the bottom. You don't know what you want, you don't know how things feel, there is a great deal you don't know. Pick up a copy of The Bottoming Book and read it twice. The thing is, when you are new you don't know enough to pick competent enough partners to allow you to not speak up when and where you feel the need.

JessieMe -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 7:36:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom The thing is, when you are new you don't know enough to pick competent enough partners to allow you to not speak up when and where you feel the need. [sm=applause.gif][sm=banana.gif]

LeatherBentOne -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 7:52:38 AM)
When my sub asks for what she wants, she is almost always denied but if she asks for what she needs, her needs are met. In her asking for what she wants, I feel she is trying to top me. But it's my responsibility to give her what she needs. I find this necessary with this particular sub because she is new and has a tendency to be greedy for pleasure over her Domme's. This I never tolerate, so Im conditioning her to recognise that good behavior means reward, while asking for what she wants rather than what she needs and any/all attempts to manipulate me I consider topping from the bottom. I find she is asking less and realising when she is trying to manipulate, all of which I reward her for as she is learning and growing in the interim. A sub must be trained in a consistent manner and if one wishes a sub to break bad habits, a Domme must enforce the good ones with rewards. In my book, its a win/win situation because although her wants are denied at that moment, I love to catch her off balance when I deliver them ~ in my time, for my pleasure, not hers. LeatherBentOne

LokisBrat -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 10:05:08 AM)
Feedback and communication are great benefits in "building" a pleasurable experience for both. However, they must be done in an acceptable manner. Presentation is the key to turning this situation into gaining helpful and useful information, versus viewing this as trying to manipulate the situation. Example: If I am doing something to Brat that is creating issues, I can tell in her manner and voice that the situation needs to be adjusted. If she is simply whining, then it is adjusted still, but maybe not in the way she was expecting. LOKI

justheather -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 10:32:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom If you are new, you SHOULD be topping from the bottom. You don't know what you want, you don't know how things feel, there is a great deal you don't know. Pick up a copy of The Bottoming Book and read it twice. The thing is, when you are new you don't know enough to pick competent enough partners to allow you to not speak up when and where you feel the need. I agree that there can be some struggle in finding the right way to communicate concerns and needs within the context of a power-exchange dynamic. I also believe that concerns and needs can be communicated in a manner that is not consistent with "topping from the bottom". As with a lot of the subtler aspects of D/s, a submissive who asks herself (and honestly answers) about her motives for doing or saying something before she does or says it can feel secure in approaching her dom about what might be a touchy subject, knowing that if he takes it as "topping" it might very well be his issue and not hers. Now, if you are talking about just play, then I think that the onus there lies with the sub in that case, to make sure she does a good job communicating with a potential partner about her questions and concerns before she enters into a situation where she is "bottoming". The lines in that case are a lot more clear: negotiations occur, play begins and she is bottoming, play ends and she is no longer bottoming. I think I understand the spirit of the advice you are giving, and I agree that an inexperienced submissive needs a lot of room to grow and learn. Im just not sure that has to take on the incarnation of "topping".

CrappyDom -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 3:26:34 PM)
Heather, I am sure someone as experienced as yourself could run an entire scene from the bottom without an inexperienced top even catching on. That is a compliment on several levels, at least to me. That said, you already "get" it but a newbie doesn't and what "not topping from the bottom" gets turned into is "do whatever idiotic thing I come up with slut" and so I wrote it as I did hoping to break through the BS crap that goes on.

KnightofMists -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 4:18:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LeatherBentOne , so Im conditioning her to recognise that good behavior means reward, LeatherBentOne and as long as she wants the reward you will recieve the good behavior. Once the reward looses it appeal so does the external motivated reasons for the good behavior.

heartfeltsub -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 4:32:59 PM)
Very good point, i would think a better thing to teach is the self-gratification of a job well done regardless of external reward. But is that something that can be taught after a certain age.

justheather -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 4:53:09 PM)
I will take your word that it's a compliment. :-) Thank you.

KnightofMists -> RE: Topping from the Bottom (7/17/2006 5:41:00 PM)
quote: I have a question for the Dominants. What do you perceive as topping from the bottom? I'm new to this lifestyle, and only have a little experience, but it's a great fear of mine. Where does it cross over, from sharing your thoughts and feelings, to "topping from the bottom"? Let me start by going after the Term “Topping from the Bottom” The phrase implies some basic definition into the label Top and Bottom. In essence, when people use this phrase they are indicating that TOP is not only the giver of the action within a scene, but they are also in control of the scene as well. It also indicates that to bottom is to receive the action of play and give up control of what shall occur. These definitions actually cause many people a lot of problems in that it is combining two concepts and interpreting them as one. Being able to look at these concepts separately will allow you to better answer your own question. Consider first that TOP is only the giver of action (behavior) within play. While the bottom is only the receiver of action (behavior) within play and that this action (behavior) is not inherently Dominant or submissive in nature. As an example. Oral sex! Both Dominant and submissives alike perform the act, therefore the act itself doesn’t define Dominance or submission some other construct does. Therefore, what is the other construct that determines Dominance or submission? The answer is Motivation! It is the individual’s motivation of performing the action or behavior that will dictate Dominance/submission. Specifically it is the motivation of having or giving up of control in the choices of the actions that will occur. The below diagram is to help you understand how this works. Top (Giver) \| \| \| Dominate----------------------------------- Submit < Motivation(control) axis \| \| \| Bottom (receiver) ^ Action(Behavior) axis To answer your question! Understanding as a bottom you are only receiver of the action of the Top. The appropriate phrase instead of “Topping from the Bottom” would be “Dominating from the bottom”! Now you express a fear of this. This fear is largely because you don’t want to be perceived by the Top as Dominating or attempting to control what shall occur within the play. This therefore becomes a perception and communication issue of your motivations. Each individual will perceive and understand things differently. It will only be thru discussion with your Top that you will learn how he perceives your motivations. Understanding his perceptions will also show you how to express things in a manner that will perceive as submission in nature. MasterFireMaam stated: quote: "Please, Ma'am, hit me harder," I would, especially if we were the same submissive said, "Is that all you got?" the scene would stop immediately In this example she expresses how she would perceive a specific phrase. For me personally neither phrase would be unacceptable to me. In fact, in play my girls are able to be completely free in what they say and what they do. I can assure you that a great majority of Tops would do exactly what MasterFireMaam does if they played my girls… they would stop the scene because they would perceive their actions as dominating. Remember I said that no action/behavior is inherently Dominant. Well because of ths, Play will start and finish when I state it is done. What occurs in play will be decide by me and me alone. The fact is that I know the intrinsic motivation of submission that exists within my girls heart and soul. They also know the intrinsic motivation of my dominance that exists within me. It is therefore to understand that no action or behavior of my girl is to be perceived as Dominating or attempts to be dominating. In fact, their responses are the Effects to my Causes! My point is that you can only fine the line of sharing thoughts and feelings of the play as compared to ”dominating from the bottom” from the Top that you are playing with. For me…. It is impossible for my girls to “dominate from the bottom” They can say anything.. do anything… it really doesn’t matter to me. I will play and do what I want regardless of what they say. I will observe and watch for the triggers that show me that they are enjoying the play and I will watch for triggers that indicate harm is endanger of occurring. My girls have never been harmed… but they have often been pushed to the limits of their endurance.

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