What is Democracy?

What is Democracy? (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 11:14:11 AM)
But the right of 50.1% to stomp on the rights of the losing 49.9%. This is in contrast to the anarchists who do advocate in the court system and maintaining law and order but not through british model of statism with a sovereign state over lord. Where are the rights of the individual man woman child in a democracy? Who [in real life not some theory or idealistically professed ideology] determines which rights the state has authority to rule on in the first place, AND how they are executed/promulgated from start to law? The 51 constitutions since I am referring to the US, I expect immediately comes to peoples minds. So thats the democratic part, now for the republican form of government part. The legislature can and in 99.999% of all laws passed does vote for you. Therefore we can conclude the democracy [OF the [P]/[p]eople BY the [P]/[p]eople and FOR the [P]/[p]eople,] is the legislature? T? F? So how do the 49% or how does the 'single' person who disagrees protect his rights in a system based on the "MOB" rules [under the king sovereign {-state-} model]? [8D] I hope we can skip all the ideology everyone is already more than familiar with and jump straight into the 'as presently practiced in real life' to avoid pages of red herrings.

NorthernGent -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 11:29:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne But the right of 50.1% to stomp on the rights of the losing 49.9%. No, the cornerstones of democracy are: A redistribution of power and an informed, engaged people. So, there's bigger fish to fry than whether or not democracy is mob rule, because in practice power hasn't been redistributed, nor is the public particularly engaged. Edited to add: and this particularly applies to the United States because unless you have a shit load of money then politics is inaccessible. At least under the 'British system' more people have access to politics.

BamaD -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 11:50:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne But the right of 50.1% to stomp on the rights of the losing 49.9%. No, the cornerstones of democracy are: A redistribution of power and an informed, engaged people. So, there's bigger fish to fry than whether or not democracy is mob rule, because in practice power hasn't been redistributed, nor is the public particularly engaged. Edited to add: and this particularly applies to the United States because unless you have a shit load of money then politics is inaccessible. At least under the 'British system' more people have access to politics. Both are republics. Pure democracy is, as someone else had in their tag line, two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

RottenJohnny -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 11:52:32 AM)
FR A better question may be, "What is freedom?"

NorthernGent -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 11:57:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne But the right of 50.1% to stomp on the rights of the losing 49.9%. No, the cornerstones of democracy are: A redistribution of power and an informed, engaged people. So, there's bigger fish to fry than whether or not democracy is mob rule, because in practice power hasn't been redistributed, nor is the public particularly engaged. Edited to add: and this particularly applies to the United States because unless you have a shit load of money then politics is inaccessible. At least under the 'British system' more people have access to politics. Both are republics. Pure democracy is, as someone else had in their tag line, two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. These are all nice words, BamaD, but you tell me: the United States a republic and how many of you actually have a genuine say in the process? I'm not advocating democracy here or anything like that, or saying that when you consider the whole package the United States is any less free than anyone else. What I'm saying is that something has gone badly wrong at some point (and I mean across the Western world), or perhaps it was all a pipe dream anyway. In terms of the principles of democracy and what was anticipated by Enlightenment thinkers, there is nothing anywhere in the world that has lived up to the expectation. A better question is: are human beings suited to democracy (or a republic whatever you want to call it)? And, the point I was making to Real0ne is this: no use quibbling over democracy/republic when to all intents and purposes neither of these things actually exist.

Real0ne -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 1:04:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny FR A better question may be, "What is freedom?" what he said^^^^^^^^ quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I'm not advocating democracy here or anything like that, or saying that when you consider the whole package the United States is any less free than anyone else. A better question may be, "What is freedom?" ah.... the Achilles heel! I have proposed that on several forums and without fail is quickly swept under the carpet or post frenzies occur to gain as much mileage as possible between the last viewed post and that question. good point, if you know or believe you know please post it for us

NorthernGent -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 1:17:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny FR A better question may be, "What is freedom?" what he said^^^^^^^^ quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I'm not advocating democracy here or anything like that, or saying that when you consider the whole package the United States is any less free than anyone else. A better question may be, "What is freedom?" ah.... the Achilles heel! I have proposed that on several forums and without fail is quickly swept under the carpet or post frenzies occur to gain as much mileage as possible between the last viewed post and that question. good point, if you know or believe you know please post it for us I don't think anyone can answer with any certainty what freedom actually is. But, I think it's fair to say that freedom should at least encompass a balance of power and an engaged populace. And so, given that there isn't a balance of power, and never has been, and that there isn't an engaged populace (in your country maybe 55% bother at the general election and in my country say 60%); and that people who went before us laid it on a plate for us and did all of the hard work and not a great deal has come to fruition - then it seems to me that the more pressing question is: "are human beings suited to democracy/republicanism or is it no more than a pipe dream?"

Real0ne -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 1:22:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne But the right of 50.1% to stomp on the rights of the losing 49.9%. No, the cornerstones of democracy are: A redistribution of power and an informed, engaged people. So, there's bigger fish to fry than whether or not democracy is mob rule, because in practice power hasn't been redistributed, nor is the public particularly engaged. Edited to add: and this particularly applies to the United States because unless you have a shit load of money then politics is inaccessible. At least under the 'British system' more people have access to politics. Both are republics. Pure democracy is, as someone else had in their tag line, two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. These are all nice words, BamaD, but you tell me: the United States a republic and how many of you actually have a genuine say in the process? I'm not advocating democracy here or anything like that, or saying that when you consider the whole package the United States is any less free than anyone else. What I'm saying is that something has gone badly wrong at some point (and I mean across the Western world), or perhaps it was all a pipe dream anyway. In terms of the principles of democracy and what was anticipated by Enlightenment thinkers, there is nothing anywhere in the world that has lived up to the expectation. A better question is: are human beings suited to democracy (or a republic whatever you want to call it)? And, the point I was making to Real0ne is this: no use quibbling over democracy/republic when to all intents and purposes neither of these things actually exist. Oh democracy exists. any time you have a vote and winner take all that is democracy by definition. However you make the point who's democracy and how is the average american joe part of the process. I believe we elect mini kings once every few years from our various territories to think and vote for us in our represented government, which is the republic part of government model after the roman model of the senate etc. The thing that bothers me of course is they do not need me in that process and can do it without any citizens outside themselves. It appears that is the way its done.

Real0ne -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 1:34:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I don't think anyone can answer with any certainty what freedom actually is. I can [sm=evil.gif] and from your law books no less! [keep in mind the US like yourselves is a common law country] created on the same basis, but that citizen gig complicate matters by putting yet another layer of complexity in direct participation in government. From your own law books :) [image]http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y410/mypbemotes/blacks/freedomfranchisecorp%20et%20al/FREEDOMETYMOLOGICALENGLISHDICTIONARYenfranchise1689A_zps91a649c7.jpg[/image] this definition is from the same time period of the creation of the US. freedom = franchise. When I hear bush talk about attacking our freedom my mind automatically converts it to its original meaning. 'franchise', the citizen/gubmint franchise and the incorporation of man into a body politic.

eulero83 -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 1:35:34 PM)
FR democracy is a political system where the governament recieve it's power from the citizens that elect representatives to take the decisions, a republic is a form of governament where the head of state changes after a specific term. Voting by majority is not synonym to democracy.

Real0ne -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 1:45:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent No, the cornerstones of democracy are: A redistribution of power and an informed, engaged people. yes and there is the rub. [pretending for a moment the average joe on the street were to be the actual voting democracy] How about this for informed?: quote: Pursuant to Section 7(d) of the National Construction Safety Team Act, I hereby find that the disclosure of the information described below, received by the National Institute of Standards and Technology ("NIST"), in connection with its investigation of the technical causes of the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and World Trade Center Building 7 on September 11,2001, might jeopardize public safety. Therefore, NIST shall not release the following information: All input and results files of the ANSYS 16-story collapse initiation model with detailed connection models that were used to analyze the structural response to thermal loads, break element source code, ANSYS script files for the break elements, custom executable ANSYS file, and all Excel spreadsheets and other supporting calculations used to develop floor connection failure modes and capacities. All input files with connection material properties and all results files of the LS-DYNA 47-story global collapse model that were used to simulate sequential structural failures leading to collapse, and all Excel spreadsheets and other supporting calculations used to develop floor connection failure modes and capacities. Patrick Gallagher- Director National Institute of Standards and Technology (2009) http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1wy6i8/nist_hid_their_wtc7_computer_simulation_data/ So the assumed defects of world trade 7, which for those who do not know was a 47 story building that collapsed straight down on September 11th with no material damage from the incident earlier that day will forever go unknown to the engineering community to correct and insure it will never happen again since that information is classified as 'secret' and harmful to the public. Since you are not from the US, would you consider these conditions fully informed which would enable the common joe to also be engaged 'constructively' in the workings of government? Is that the sort of thing you are referring when you say the western governments departed from the beliefs of the people? I do not see the gubmints decision to withhold critical design information from the public or the engineering communities as being informative on any level.

Real0ne -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 1:48:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent And, the point I was making to Real0ne is this: no use quibbling over democracy/republic when to all intents and purposes neither of these things actually exist. and there is the top shelf rubs of all rubs! Which begs the the question of course why do so many americans believe it does exist, much worse that they actually are living 'it'. Some form of mass delusion maybe?

NorthernGent -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 1:50:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne The thing that bothers me of course is they do not need me in that process and can do it without any citizens outside themselves. It appears that is the way its done. People get the government they deserve. Of course they do need you, just like our government needs us, in order to operate the way they do. Let's be honest here, and this is doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination: not many people give the first fuck what the government do, its mechanics, its consequences nor its motives. Providing we all get a kebab, or for yourselves probably a pizza, most of us are as happy as pigs in shit. And, I'm fairly confident that human beings aren't ready for a democracy or a republic. There's no reason to think we are. We had it laid on a plate for us by earlier generations and a good chunk of people simply aren't interested.

RottenJohnny -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 2:02:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne A better question may be, "What is freedom?"... ...if you know or believe you know please post it for us It's admittedly a personal, limited definition and certainly open to debate but I see it as the ability to create an absence of outside influence on one's life and to live within that space without the desire to influence others.

NorthernGent -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 2:04:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Since you are not from the US, would you consider these conditions fully informed which would enable the common joe to also be engaged 'constructively' in the workings of government? Don't know much about it, Real0ne, so not much use in giving an opinion. What I can say is that from a rational point of view the political and social costs of such an action make it not worth it for a government, and I doubt very much they had any hand in what happened in New York. Probably the most telling point is that they don't need to do this to control people. There are far, far more easier ways of controlling people with much less risk than being complicit in a bombing and the murder of 3,000 people.

Real0ne -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 2:12:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne The thing that bothers me of course is they do not need me in that process and can do it without any citizens outside themselves. It appears that is the way its done. People get the government they deserve. Of course they do need you, just like our government needs us, in order to operate the way they do. Let's be honest here, and this is doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination: not many people give the first fuck what the government do, its mechanics, its consequences nor its motives. Providing we all get a kebab, or for yourselves probably a pizza, most of us are as happy as pigs in shit. And, I'm fairly confident that human beings aren't ready for a democracy or a republic. There's no reason to think we are. We had it laid on a plate for us by earlier generations and a good chunk of people simply aren't interested. well here in the US the indians, and today the rest of us have this thing called a democratic republic jammed down our throats as an immutable perpetual contract. Iraq and Afghanistan are soon to experience UKofA style democracy as well. I would argue that people [meaning the average joe] are most certainly *interested* however its become a bottomless dung sink hole thats impossible for the average joe to understand much less navigate to effect any kind of real change. The laws and government under our so called democracy, as they stand here in america today, appear to me to be completely out of reach, unless every citizen were to become a nation of attorneys and devote their whole lives to the operation of government. The democracy appears to be the legislature and congress.

Real0ne -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 2:17:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Since you are not from the US, would you consider these conditions fully informed which would enable the common joe to also be engaged 'constructively' in the workings of government? Don't know much about it, Real0ne, so not much use in giving an opinion. What I can say is that from a rational point of view the political and social costs of such an action make it not worth it for a government, and I doubt very much they had any hand in what happened in New York. Probably the most telling point is that they don't need to do this to control people. There are far, far more easier ways of controlling people with much less risk than being complicit in a bombing and the murder of 3,000 people. Thats a side note, but the issue is the government withholding vital design information from the community that tasked and commissioned them to provide. to summarize it in a word, the government has elected to keep vital construction information from the public that would prevent any other building past present or future from collapsing in in a similar manner which is directly on point with your statement of fully informed. I do not classify withholding vital information from the people fully informing the people.

Real0ne -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 2:21:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne A better question may be, "What is freedom?"... ...if you know or believe you know please post it for us It's admittedly a personal, limited definition and certainly open to debate but I see it as the ability to create an absence of outside influence on one's life and to live within that space without the desire to influence others. Most law and its use is debatable. Yes, a point I agree with. We think of freedom as freedom from, the gubmint thinks of freedom as freedom 'to'. Hence the freedom franchise

RottenJohnny -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/17/2015 2:53:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne A better question may be, "What is freedom?"... ...if you know or believe you know please post it for us It's admittedly a personal, limited definition and certainly open to debate but I see it as the ability to create an absence of outside influence on one's life and to live within that space without the desire to influence others. Yes, a point I agree with. We think of freedom as freedom from, the gubmint thinks of freedom as freedom 'to'. Shouldn't it include both? Perhaps I should restate this as, "the ability to create an absence of outside influence on one's life and to live within that space as one sees fit without the desire to influence others.

Real0ne -> RE: What is Democracy? (7/18/2015 2:15:20 AM)
thats reversed from the way the state views it. the state only 'recognizes' individual rights as being legitimate if they are approved through the state.

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