Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (Full Version)

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DerangedUnit -> Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 12:52:15 PM)

Creating this as an offshoot so i can try to go more in depth in responce to chatteparfaitt:

Lets start off with the definition of manipulation just to get a view of my jumping off point.

Manipulation- Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage.

Then is it manipulation if it is for someone elses good?

In society we consider it polite lot to tell someone to fuck off because we are in a bad mood, but is it manipulation if in a relationship we dont tell someone to fuck off just because we are in a bad mood.

All interaction with others has a reaction. Every word we say whether intended or not manipulates the responce.

For example, a parent tells a child to clean their room. The child screams and throws a fit, the parent screams back or grabs the child and locks them in the room until its clean.

Now what if the parent told the child to clean their room and the child fist pumped the air and said "lets do it!" They made a game of putting toys away, the parent smiles at how cute their kid is...


Which is the better responce?

Everyone has a choice over how events turn out. Is it more manipulative to turn them towards the best reaction, or to make everyone miserable because 'you dont want to clean your room'


What counts as manipulation? What is a desired behavior modification? What is simply not trying to ruin someone elses day?

In my own life i want to be happy and i want those around me to be happy so i do certain things to make it easier. I have a cold right now and had a frustrating weekend, that doesnt change how i behave. I dont complain, i dont argue, i dont mope around. The second he comes in the door i yell "daddys home!" And run up and give him a hug. Its not that i dont feel like shit its that after i do that we joke and tell stories like usual and he tries to give me kisses and i hide my sick face and i feel better, and he doesnt feel bad that im sick.


He wants me happy, i want him happy. I see people in relationships trying to tell their partner about how horrible their work day was, and you just see the life drain from their eyes. Then they wonder why they argue and fight all the time. Or the typical "i dont want to do anything" dom, where they think they look tough if they can shoot down any idea you have or keep being depressed despite everyone around them having a good time.

I think those people have a confused idea about what being honest with your partner is.

If you are negative all the time, those around you wil be negative as well. Its a self fullfilling prophecy and something i consider incredibly selfish.

The term "man cave" was coined for a reason, its because people dont want to hear about everything that goes wrong in their partners day. They want to come home, relax, and have fun.

....im trying to consolidate all this and close it up but my head doesnt want to work with me today :P so in closing i dont think making people happy is manipulation, i think making people unhappy just to be stubborn is manipulation.




MAINEiacMISTRESS -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 1:05:13 PM)

Ugh, I hate the term "man cave", because many of the things people put in one are things I MYSELF enjoy...like the 90" widescreen tv, video game consoles, surround sound speaker system (cranked up during game play so the neighbors can share in My tank warfare experience), etc etc. I guess most people still assume "the wife" will be busy doing housework and the cooking while the man is playing the recluse in his "man cave".

Anyway, back to topic..



NookieNotes -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 1:14:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit
Manipulation- Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage.


quote:

so in closing i dont think making people happy is manipulation, i think making people unhappy just to be stubborn is manipulation.


I think you're asking the wrong question.

Yes, it is manipulation, by the definition, because you are being shrewd:

shrewd
SHro͞od/
adjective
1. having or showing sharp powers of judgment; astute.

You may or may not be being devious. However, that does not matter, as the word "or" is there. The definition applies whether shrewdness OR deviousness is present.

To the second half of the definition, you said:

quote:

In my own life i want to be happy and i want those around me to be happy so i do certain things to make it easier.


Therefore, the shrewd behavior is used to your advantage.

So, yes, it is manipulative.

That said, I think the questions should be, "Is manipulation inherently wrong or bad?"

My answer would be, "No, absolutely not." Then again, my main kink is behavior modification, so I may be biased.

However, here's my take: I have a personal line in relationships that I do not cross. I interact as naturally as possible. If I get to a point where I begin to feel "shrewd," or aware of choosing my actions based on how it may benefit me in a situation, regardless of how it benefits others, I stop if I do not have consent to play in their head (a requirement for service), and say specifically, "What I'm about to say/do can is selfish, so heads up," or something to that effect.

It's rarely those words. I do, however, draw attention to my next words/actions, in the hopes that they may avoid or choose the potential manipulation.

This is how I am as honest as possible, because few people LIKE to be manipulated, even if it works out in their favor, as many people believe that manipulation is inherently wrong in all scenarios.

Again, I disagree. I wish more people used manipulation for good.

But I may have gone off-topic... I find the concept fascinating, and was thinking about it in reading the originating thread. *smiles*



DerangedUnit -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 1:15:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS

Ugh, I hate the term "man cave", because many of the things people put in one are things I MYSELF enjoy...like the 90" widescreen tv, video game consoles, surround sound speaker system (cranked up during game play so the neighbors can share in My tank warfare experience), etc etc. I guess most people still assume "the wife" will be busy doing housework and the cooking while the man is playing the recluse in his "man cave".

Anyway, back to topic..



All the video games in my owners cave are mine... the only thing he keeps in there is me. Women do housework!?!! I thought the eat bonbons while watching the young and the restless :P



DerangedUnit -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 1:23:17 PM)

I think you are right there. What gets be is that by that definition everything is manipulation. The very act of knowing what will happen if you behave a certain way makes it so... so aside from closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears you are manipulating everyone around you.

That is why I put vs. In the title I think, because where do other people draw that line..... everything is manipulation, what manipulation is good, what is bad... it seems that most people think its bad just if you admit to doing it. But I think telling people what you are doing negates it.... so many rules lol



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 1:35:02 PM)

Nope, I don't think I have a confused idea of what it means to be honest with my partner, and the type of manipulation you described in the other thread I personally consider highly dishonest.

And yes, it's way easier to pretend to be happy, to pretend to be nice, just to get by. Everyone living in the real world does that. But with those closest to you, you don't do that at the expense of skipping over ongoing issues. Never clearing the air means even small wounds will fester and never heal.

The OP was concerned enough to come on a public forum -- which in my mind means at some level she understood it was not a small issue.

Now, having said all that, I am one of those non-male persons who quickly tires of too much relationship talk (especially negative talk) and who thinks non-verbal communication (like looking happy when you loved one appears) is equally important.

But that's not *really* behavior modification, that's using your non-verbal skill set in the hopes of getting a positive result. Most of us desire a positive result, except those who think telling someone to fuck off is polite.



DerangedUnit -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 1:42:07 PM)

quote:

quote:

In my own life i want to be happy and i want those around me to be happy so i do certain things to make it easier.


Therefore, the shrewd behavior is used to your advantage.

So, yes, it is manipulative.


And in response to that part. Being happy is to everyones advantage, it's not a personal advantage.... It's a rule. As in my owners rules are 1.mine mine mine 2. Be happy 3. Hair as long as possible 4. No underwear

He doesn't want people around who arent happy, as a consequence neither do I. One came after the other. My personality changed to match his. If that makes sense



RemoteUser -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 1:55:21 PM)

In the simplest sense, any form of attempt to alter something to a desired end is manipulation, which by and large is not confined to behaviours. Behaviour modification is altering a person's reactions to tailor a desired effect, and can be nonsexual, i.e. encouraging someone to quit smoking.

The ethical considerations of either form of alteration resides firmly on what the alteration consists of, pertinent to those involved, making it wildly subjective.

In short, you can't choose a generic "good" or "bad" label on either process (and both are carried out differently, they might cross over according to Venn but they are independent ultimately). The results of said process are another story.

Remember also that happiness is subjective, and being happy isn't the same as being "good". you can't make a pedophile happy without pissing a lot of people off. Nor can you measure the worth of the effort by intent, because intent is not the same as result.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 2:01:45 PM)

But real live people are just not happy all the time. I consider myself a fairly positive upbeat person and "I'm* not happy all the time. That's an unrealistic expectation.

Of course, I've been with the same man for almost 18 years so....we're well past the honeymoon stage. Neither of us are happy all the time, but we do expect to be happy with each other, and to aggressively address issues that interfere with that.

If you're habit is to not tell your partner what's going on, it's only a matter of time before that becomes an issue that interferes with your mutual happiness.






DerangedUnit -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 2:05:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Nope, I don't think I have a confused idea of what it means to be honest with my partner, and the type of manipulation you described in the other thread I personally consider highly dishonest.

And yes, it's way easier to pretend to be happy, to pretend to be nice, just to get by. Everyone living in the real world does that. But with those closest to you, you don't do that at the expense of skipping over ongoing issues. Never clearing the air means even small wounds will fester and never heal.

The OP was concerned enough to come on a public forum -- which in my mind means at some level she understood it was not a small issue.

Now, having said all that, I am one of those non-male persons who quickly tires of too much relationship talk (especially negative talk) and who thinks non-verbal communication (like looking happy when you loved one appears) is equally important.

But that's not *really* behavior modification, that's using your non-verbal skill set in the hopes of getting a positive result. Most of us desire a positive result, except those who think telling someone to fuck off is polite.


Hmm I suppose I consider them the same thing, pretending to be happy and "smiling when someone comes in the door"

As for letting things fester I suppose it would depend on the circumstances. Im of the general opinion that action is better than talk. Id rather not talk and just do. Sometimes however that fails. One example was my owner complaining all the time about acid reflux. I told him it was all the tea he had been drinking and handed him water. He decided to not drink the water and to keep drinking tea... and complaining about acid. So I had to use my words "if you are unwilling to fix the problem than you are not allowed to complain about it around me" that is the only time in years I had to say something to fix it. Other things work themselves out without ever needing to be discussed. Like he steals all the covers, solved by separate cover piles. I dont like my nipples being played with so everytime he pinched my nipple I pinched his, it stopped. He said "stupid dogs drink out of the toilet" I took a gulp and spit it in his face, hasnt called me stupid again.

Point being just because you dont talk things out and explain your feelings doesnt mean you cant solve the problem and have fun while doing it. You shouldn't let things fester, you should solve them.




DerangedUnit -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 2:24:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

But real live people are just not happy all the time. I consider myself a fairly positive upbeat person and "I'm* not happy all the time. That's an unrealistic expectation.

Of course, I've been with the same man for almost 18 years so....we're well past the honeymoon stage. Neither of us are happy all the time, but we do expect to be happy with each other, and to aggressively address issues that interfere with that.

If you're habit is to not tell your partner what's going on, it's only a matter of time before that becomes an issue that interferes with your mutual happiness.






Ive been his slave for 2 years and platonic friend for around 8 before that. We have been angry at each other once in that time. I can be happy all the time as long as im around happy people, other peoples moods strongly affect me which is why im so against casual negativity.

We dont need to tell each other what is going on. For example, the neighbor is trying to trick me into sleeping with him. He told me hes friends with the guy I live with. I didnt habe to tell my owner because I knew he was lying. Hes bever spoken to him, I know that because the remote hasnt moved from where I left it next to the tv... he hasnt been back since I was gone, no chance for the neighbor to "become friends"

Now ive casually mentioned the creepy guy that knocks on my door and such but not to the extent that hes tried to fiddle with my lock to try to get in because if my owner knew that hed get into a fight. Hes already out on bail for assult so bad idea. Which leads into another example, we dont talk about his court case because it puts him in a bad mood. I dont need to know he either goes to jail or he doesn't. But when he comes home this is a place that is stress free.

We will both always have drama in our lives but our drama stays ours and doesn't affect the other party.



DesFIP -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 2:40:27 PM)

Expecting your partner to only share happy, happy, joy, joy is itself manipulation. It's saying "I don't care enough to support you when you need it". And that's wrong.

Sometimes life sucks. Today I discovered that my daughter was injured on vacation and is sitting in a hospital. Should I not mention that because it's depressing and will bring him down?




Kaliko -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 4:41:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

Hmm I suppose I consider them the same thing, pretending to be happy and "smiling when someone comes in the door"




I wouldn't want to pretend happiness as much as I would want to learn to shift my perspective to allow for more positivity. Pretending seems dishonest to me. But making an honest effort to pick up my mood and actually be happy? Sure. And maybe that takes a type of pretending to begin with. Don't they say that smiling, even if you don't feel like smiling, can help brighten your mood? We manipulate our bodies into thinking we're happier than we are. (See what I did there?)

I would never want to pretend to smile when he walks in the door. I must have had a mightily shitty day indeed if I can't muster up at least a weak but genuine thank-goodness-you're-here-I'm-so-glad-to-see-you smile. And if my day has been that bad then yes, I would talk to him about it. And if something is affecting me that much that I can't be genuinely happy to see him, then I'm sure he would want to know what's got me all spooled up. And often, he can help.








ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 7:16:42 PM)

I took the time to reread, and I think we are talking at cross purposes here.

I may not be happy all the time, but I still treat the people in my life with kindness and respect. Regardless of my mood or my pain level, I don't feel entitled to take it out on others.

Occasionally, it still happens, b/c I am human. But (like most mature adults) I understand it's inappropriate behavior, and am quick to apologize.

I sort of agree that to a certain extent, if you pretend to be happy long enough, you can gain some measure of happiness. I've had a life long issue with depression, and it does actually work for me. But I don't put up a pretense of happiness with those closest to me, that would be not trusting them with the whole me. And I'm into the trust thing big time.



DerangedUnit -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 8:56:12 PM)

Yes, i agree with that. I think we are just getting hung up on wording. In my first post i used the example of squats... no one "wants" to do squats, you dont do them because they make you happy right away. That doesnt mean you grumble through doing them, you can be in a good mood about something you dont want to do.

I think people are getting hung up on the phrase "pretend to be happy" when i originally used that example it was in the context of not wanting to do squats not someone is miserable and they should suck it up.

Most people ive come across have a sort of nuetral bitchiness. They arent happy or unhappy they are just naturally like that. The phrase was aimed at them. Your mood can be a self fulfilling prophecy, if they ever want to be able to feel happy they have to fake it until it reboots.

There are a number of people i have blocked on here for the sole reason that they never once had anything positive to say in months of posting. If i let those kinds of people in my mood would start slipping. My owner would notice, hed flip out and think something was actually wrong when no, other people are just in perpetual bad moods.

Most relationship problems ive seen it was because they both got stuck in that "resting bitch face" mode and it just turns into bickering, whining, and avoiding each other.

When i see someone say "its all his/her fault!" I think about how they can change their own behavior to get the responce they want instead of sitting around expecting someone else to change their behavior.

One of my biggest pet peeves are people that expect things to change without being willing to change their behavior(that and people who call themselves intelligent ugh)

"Pretending to be happy" i dont see as a trust issue because it works the same even if you tell them you are doing it. Even if you say "i feel like shit but im doing this anyway!" If you do it with a smile and an excited tone you and the other person will still feel better after time than if you mope around because 'you didnt really want to'

Whenever daddy asks me if i want to go to work with him, i respond by putting my shoes on and bouncing out the door. Even if i dont want to that second, i know that within 10 minutes ill be chipper again and joking with the guys.

I spent the weekend playing with dogs and kids, just like you dont tell a kid you dont really want to crawl around on your knees on the hardwood, and you always say "good girl go get the ball!", i dont think you should turn that off for other people, especially your partner. I see so many people(my mother is in that group) who expect their partner to me the one they share their misery with. Its like watching a competition for whose life sucks worse. Then they wonder why their partner wants to run off and play golf any chance they get.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 9:19:26 PM)

Yeah I think we've all seen couples like that, they both spew out discontent and misery on the other.

I think this is part n parcel of expecting someone else to make you happy. I'm here to tell you, they can't.

If you really want to be happy, then learn to be happy with YOURSELF. Learn whatever it is that makes you happy, and do it often. If you have inner happiness, no one can take that away from you. If you expect someone else to make you happy, you will be consistently disappointed.

Find simple things in life to make you happy. I have a whole list of very simple things that make me happy: a good book, a purring cat, a nice sunrise or sunset, a lovely bath, the most gorgeous blossoms on my hibiscus plant, a nice piece of red sockeye salmon, cuddling with Himself or my lamb (or both, yum).

Everyone has things in life that have to do, that they don't want to do. Like for me, it's dishes. I love to cook, hate to do the dishes. But it's part of it. Having a positive attitude and learning to take the good with the bad is not just emotionally healthy, in the long run it's physically healthy.







DerangedUnit -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/22/2015 9:32:35 PM)

I think we are back to completely misunderstanding each other :P im too feverish to try to piece this out right now.



NookieNotes -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/23/2015 2:53:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

I think you are right there. What gets be is that by that definition everything is manipulation.


Not everything. That's why I made clear that when I just behave naturally, I do not concern myself with consent. When I begin to think about a situation and how to make the most of it, I give fair warning... because I have studied this and those I engage with. It gives me unfair advantage, unless I say something.

quote:

The very act of knowing what will happen if you behave a certain way makes it so... so aside from closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears you are manipulating everyone around you.


Well, yes and no. Yes, in that babies are the biggest "manipulators" out there, but it's all by instinct. In that definition, dogs, cats, birds... everything manipulates, as it is input/output.

Shrewd and devious are the key factors. so the test (for me) would be:

1. Do you KNOW what you are doing and have given it conscious thought?

2. Are you using underhanded tactics to alter the outcome of a situation?

One or both of these factors need to be present to fulfill your posted definition of manipulation.

quote:

That is why I put vs. In the title I think, because where do other people draw that line..... everything is manipulation, what manipulation is good, what is bad... it seems that most people think its bad just if you admit to doing it. But I think telling people what you are doing negates it.... so many rules lol


So, as you see, I don't believe everything is manipulation. And telling people about it certainly DOES NOT negate it, in my experience.

In fact, with my Pet, I ask him regularly if I'm still allowed to play inside his mind. He and I discuss ways to add pleasure or create humiliation tension. Just because you know something does not mean it does not work. Sometimes, it works even better. Humans are funny that way.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

quote:

quote:

In my own life i want to be happy and i want those around me to be happy so i do certain things to make it easier.

Therefore, the shrewd behavior is used to your advantage.

So, yes, it is manipulative.


And in response to that part. Being happy is to everyones advantage, it's not a personal advantage.... It's a rule. As in my owners rules are 1.mine mine mine 2. Be happy 3. Hair as long as possible 4. No underwear

He doesn't want people around who arent happy, as a consequence neither do I. One came after the other. My personality changed to match his. If that makes sense


Yes, I agree. However, the definition does not make mention whether manipulation is to others' benefit or not, so that is irrelevant. Just whether it is to your benefit.

So, in my view, it still fits.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

In the simplest sense, any form of attempt to alter something to a desired end is manipulation, which by and large is not confined to behaviours.


If we go by the definition she posted, that is not the case. Only if there is conscious thought and/or deviousness.

I understand your point, too, and agree on the rest.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit
Hmm I suppose I consider them the same thing, pretending to be happy and "smiling when someone comes in the door"


I don't. For me, it's easy to smile when I see a loved one, even while telling them I am having an awful day.





FrankAr -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/23/2015 5:44:11 AM)

Greetings,

I personally think that manipulating someone is just as bad as testing them. If you want to manipulate, then leave the relationship, because you are giving yourself and unfair advantage. I think testing is the same thing. People want to test it each over, then go ahead and do it, but if it smacks you in the face, then do not grumble. Example could be a female testing her partner with a female friend coming onto him. She has planted the test, to see if at all he might cheat by saying something to the friend. But what if the male found out and then turned his back on the female for testing him, she can't do anything.

The male submissive does something to see if the Domme would punish him and go through with the wrong / punishment scenario. Would the Domme do something about it or would she let it slip.

Now what if the manipulation is for the better good. To manipulate the person into loosing weight. If you try to loose 5 kilos this week, I will take you out to dinner, and not hungry jacks or maccas......remember I am writing from aussie land. Is this bad to have a positive manipulation ?

I am actually all for letting the female talk to me about their days and get the bad aura off their shoulders, I like to absorb the negative thoughts and get her into a positive mood. I do this because I then can go to the gym and do weights and get the hatred out of the system, but then that is me. I can just go to the gym and do the treadmill for about 2 hours and get the frustration out of the system.

For every relationship there are always manipulation, modification, and positive / negativity. The one thing that will stand out is how the relationship copes with it all and how the strength can gather itself from all this. That is why some relationships last for years and decades, they communicate and talk and listen.

Frank Ar.



NookieNotes -> RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity (7/23/2015 6:03:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankAr
I personally think that manipulating someone is just as bad as testing them. If you want to manipulate, then leave the relationship, because you are giving yourself and unfair advantage. I think testing is the same thing. People want to test it each over, then go ahead and do it, but if it smacks you in the face, then do not grumble. Example could be a female testing her partner with a female friend coming onto him. She has planted the test, to see if at all he might cheat by saying something to the friend. But what if the male found out and then turned his back on the female for testing him, she can't do anything.


How are you defining testing?

Does testing have to be conscious?
Does testing have to be negative?
Is there no example you can think of in which testing someone is a good thing?
Do you believe that you do not, ever test people?

quote:

For every relationship there are always manipulation, modification, and positive / negativity. The one thing that will stand out is how the relationship copes with it all and how the strength can gather itself from all this. That is why some relationships last for years and decades, they communicate and talk and listen.


This I agree with.

So, if manipulation is in every relationship, and the bar is how the relationship handles it, is it inherently negative, as you suggested in your first line? Or is testing also not inherently bad?



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