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Vanity Sizing - 7/25/2015 4:04:08 AM   
MariaB


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I started to wonder why sizing for clothing isn't uniform, depending on what outlet I buy from the sizes vary enormously.

Apart from when I was pregnant I've always been the same size. I can still get into the wedding dress I wore when I was 18 but disturbingly, that wedding dress is a size 12 (US 14) Most of my clothes are a size 8 (US 10) or 10 (US 12) and sometimes even a size 6 (US 8). I know I haven't got slimmer so why am I able to get into size 8 and sometimes even a size 6 depending on where I shop? Is it because those retailers want me to clap my hands with joy and buy their product just so I can believe I'm that size?. This is vanity sizing gone mad and its leading us all up the garden path.

I recently spoke to the manager of FatFace and asked why their sizing is so generous. She told me that since the 70s and 80s people have become much taller and their shape has changed quite dramatically... I call nonsense on that one. Whilst we may of grown in height, womens sizing is done on hip, bust and waist width. If our hips and waists are evolving to be bigger, then we need to simply purchase bigger sizes.

Digging a little further I discovered that Marilyn Monroe was a size 14-16 in UK sizing and yet her measurements were 35-22-35. Those are not the measurements we would see on a size 14-16 in the UK today, those sizes would drown her. I also read that a UK size 10 has gone up by four inches since the 1980s.

Should sizing (as it seems to be with shoes and mens clothing) remain uniform? or would you prefer not to know that the size 10 you are buying now would of been a size 14 not so long ago?





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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/25/2015 5:47:07 AM   
BitaTruble


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I haven't shopped over seas for clothes for a long time but here in the states, I'm a size 8 everywhere I go. Some size eights look better and fit better than others and I do believe that what they call 8's now were a 10 or even a 12 at some point but it is fairly consistent at least. I don't care what size they call it, I just want the freakin' things to fit without having to take one of every size to try on.

Shoes sizes on the other hand.. I'm anywhere from a 5 1/2 to a 7. I would like to be able to do more shopping online, but I need to try stuff on so it's brick and mortar for me, clothes/shoes-wise.

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/25/2015 5:55:44 AM   
MariaB


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Interesting about the shoes. Over here in the UK the shoe sizing doesn't seem to change at all.

Like you, I love buying things online and fortunately I'm a fairly good seamstress, so if its too big I can alter it.

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/25/2015 12:14:55 PM   
littleladybug


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I have found that, especially in business and formal attire, the better the clothes, the better the fit. Sizing depends a lot on the type of fabrics used and the method of manufacture, so I don't see "uniform sizing" happening anytime soon, especially on the woman's side of things.

And, yes, some people will clap for joy if they fit into something that's labelled 2 sizes smaller than their normal size. Speaking about vanity sizing gone mad-- my mom used to work at a high end department store. She had a very good customer who would come in regularly and buy a gown or two, always in a size 6. After spending several thousand dollars on these gowns, she would spend that much again to get them altered to her true size, which was about a 12 or 14. After they were altered, she would insist that the original size 6 tag go back in.

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/25/2015 1:25:19 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

I have found that, especially in business and formal attire, the better the clothes, the better the fit. Sizing depends a lot on the type of fabrics used and the method of manufacture, so I don't see "uniform sizing" happening anytime soon, especially on the woman's side of things.

And, yes, some people will clap for joy if they fit into something that's labelled 2 sizes smaller than their normal size. Speaking about vanity sizing gone mad-- my mom used to work at a high end department store. She had a very good customer who would come in regularly and buy a gown or two, always in a size 6. After spending several thousand dollars on these gowns, she would spend that much again to get them altered to her true size, which was about a 12 or 14. After they were altered, she would insist that the original size 6 tag go back in.


At first this made me smile but then it saddened me because she was unable to embrace the real her.


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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/25/2015 1:26:11 PM   
MissKatya


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

...I recently spoke to the manager of FatFace and asked why their sizing is so generous. She told me that since the 70s and 80s people have become much taller and their shape has changed quite dramatically... I call nonsense on that one. Whilst we may of grown in height, womens sizing is done on hip, bust and waist width. If our hips and waists are evolving to be bigger, then we need to simply purchase bigger sizes.....


Yes and no on this one. She isn't exactly wrong with her answer as body size standards do change over the course of the years but the truth is that it's kind of a marketing tactic. If designers see a surge in a measurement change (such as taller or more fuller figured women), they will modify the current measurements of clothing to reflect it, therefore setting the notion that a women that may have been a size large are now a size medium. It sounds so vain but designers have picked up on the vanity of women wanting to think that they are smaller than they really are. Clothing looks better when it fits correctly so cutting a dress to size large measurements and putting a size medium label on it is nothing more than a cunning marketing ploy. And it works.

As you said, Ms. Monroe's measurements would not reflect a current UK 14-16 but more of a UK 10 (?). She would also be considered a size small/medium today but was considered large/plus size back in her day.

But the reason as to why there is such an erratic change in sizing from designer to designer is manufacturing.
Most of the clothing are mass produced in sweatshops that are mostly mechanical, which are more concerned with final output than finished product. When clothing is mass produced in a mostly mechanical sweatshop, it's usually patterned a few sizes larger to give space for assembly mistakes, whereas a shop or boutique that individually makes an item will pattern to the correct size because there is little to no mistakes made in assembly because it's being done by hand. Some mass produced are better than others and you will definitely see that in the price you pay for clothing.

For example: mass produced sweatshop will have a machine that will lay the fabric out while another machine will laser cut the pattern pieces out. If the pattern is not laid/cut correctly on the fabric, the bias is off, therefore creating an uncomfortable fit so items are cut larger to give some leeway to correct mistakes.

Individual boutique will have someone lay the fabric and pattern out, check for bias and then cut pieces and assemble by hand.

So depending on where you shop, you will be able to know that at that particular store, you will be one size whereas at another store, you will be a different size.

It's frustrating and annoying as well but the best way to shop is by your individual measurements and not the size they offer.

Finally, my design degree can finally be put to good use! Lol.



< Message edited by MissKatya -- 7/25/2015 1:27:20 PM >


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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/25/2015 1:29:34 PM   
littleladybug


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


At first this made me smile but then it saddened me because she was unable to embrace the real her.



Pretty much the way I feel about it as well. I mean, of course people looking at her will know she's not a size 6, so that label is only there for *her*. That, and all of the money that was used on these alterations...

ETA-- literally, they would get more fabric from the designer, and essentially re-work the entire gown. Kept the seamstresses in their jobs, but that's about the only positive I can see.


< Message edited by littleladybug -- 7/25/2015 1:30:54 PM >

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/25/2015 1:37:57 PM   
ShaharThorne


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Being a plus size diva (I wish), it is hard to find clothes to suit me. JMY has me in 26-28 in shirts and blouses while Roamans has me in 2x (which is 26/28). I am a 3x or 4x in pants, with a skirt in a 26. Woman Within has their sizing range so fucked up, its hard to order from them. My pants and shorts are snug at 3x but flabby at 4x. Don't get me started on my bra size...different manufacturers use different measurements (one bra is 46DD and 2 are 48DD). All I can say is don't let me near a Lane Bryants or Avenue...if I had a gold card, it will be overloaded with clothing purchases.

The reason why I choose to have 3x/4x in pants size is so I can cover my dunlap belly...I don't want people seeing all my scars and my belly button (numerous scar tissue there). I am trying to coax my doctor to order a special procedure for me that is similar to a tummy tuck but needed for health reasons (recurring back surgeries anyone?).

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/25/2015 3:26:48 PM   
DesFIP


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Bra cup sizes differ depending on the band size. An A cup in a 34 band is much smaller than an A cup in a 40 band.

And yes, as people grow taller, they need to weigh more to fit the same size as a shorter person.

Look at baby clothes. The only ones who can wear newborn are premies. My grandson started out in 6 - 9 month sizes.

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/26/2015 1:55:37 AM   
MariaB


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MissKatya, thank you for explaining how things work. You clearly know how it works and after reading what you wrote, I feel a lot more educated about this.

Shahar, I also find bra sizes a nightmare. Most of the time I wear sports bras or pay a fortune for a specialised bra and yet I don't think I'm that different in shape to most of the population here.
I hope you get the procedure you are needing.

DesFip, I know exactly what you mean about the smaller the girth, the more problematic the cup seems to be.
I think length is something else. I remember buying trousers/pants that I always had to take up because they used to make all trousers to fit a long leg. At least nowadays we can buy off the peg trousers that fit a short, regular or long leg. My best friend is 5 inches taller than me but the same size. She can get into my trousers but obviously the legs are too short. She weighs more than me because of her extra length but that doesn't make a difference on size. A size 8 woman could weight 7 stone or weigh 10 stone but they can still wear the same size dress.

I haven't bought baby clothes for a long time now. Do newborns tend not to fit newborns because babies are getting longer?

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/26/2015 7:10:07 AM   
Lucylastic


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regarding baby clothes, I think it depends on the size at birth
my middle one could fit in newborns for about a month, he was 8lb 2
my youngest one was 10lb so he didnt fit in anything newborn at all.
Ive been fat my entire life...at 14, I was a size 16, and finding clothes was IMPOSSIBLE 40 years ago, unless you wanted to wear polyester.
Etams, chelseagirl, dorothy perkins, miss selfridge had nothing for me, only evans(outsized)
When I got married, none of the shops on the highstreet had anything in my size, I was told I was too fat and the only chance Ihad of getting a dress to fit me was to find a seamstress.
Now? the major bitch I have, is finding decent lingerie. Especially bras. I am a 44b/42c sighs, not easy to find....small cup.
Ive been the same weight for 15 years and Ive had to buy packets of bra extenders.
I thank the goddess for plus size models and plus size stores online.
WHen I had my lingerie /toy shop I would only sell lingerie lines that went up to a 3x. simply out of frustration with the lack of lingerie for fat chicks.
Now its beginning to change, but im 53... the mind is still sexual, but the market is small.




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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/26/2015 7:28:40 AM   
MAINEiacMISTRESS


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It really would be so much easier if we tossed out that archaic "size 6,8...16" and "sm, med, Lg" and instead went with ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS.

Maybe it's a retailer strategy to keep us buying clothes that don't fit (and sometimes don't get around to returning) to keep us buying more to get the correct fit. I wonder what the ratio of misfit clothing purchases is to actual RETURNED clothes.

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/26/2015 8:25:39 AM   
Lucylastic


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As some of you know, I sell corsets now. I love corsets, I couldnt afford to pay for couture hand made, fit you like a second skin, and made to measure corsets, (even tho they are so worth it) And I know that is the reality for many women.
Ive spent years looking for plus sized "corsets", and 99% of them have been duds.
This is a size chart from a "corset seller" for "fashion" corsets

In my case, normal clothing, i fit a 2x... according to the size chart im a 6x.
oh thats a joy to order, wear and feel good about. NOT


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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/26/2015 8:56:43 AM   
IvoryPearls


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I read a lot of mid-century and earlier popular fiction. The phrase "a perfect size 14" has cropped up more than once as a descriptor of a beautiful slim woman, so there you go.

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/26/2015 9:35:43 AM   
littleladybug


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

As some of you know, I sell corsets now. I love corsets, I couldnt afford to pay for couture hand made, fit you like a second skin, and made to measure corsets, (even tho they are so worth it) And I know that is the reality for many women.



That "sizing chart" is ridiculous.

I am by no means a corset maven-- but I had one that I had custom made about 15 years ago. It was made by someone who I found through a friend of a friend down in New Orleans. At the time, on a student's budget, it was outrageously expensive. What I loved though about this gal was that no matter the size-- XS to 6XL (or whatever), the price was going to be the same. Back in high school, I had a dress custom made for prom, and it was more expensive because, you know, more material. *grrr*

For me, the issue has always been fit in my bust. According to that sizing chart, in order to accommodate my bust, I'd be ordering a 5X-- though the other measurements are in the "L" range. I'm just chuckling thinking about how lovely that thing would look on me. But, this isn't uncommon. I have a dear friend who is built in the reverse of me. Larger in the hips with a smaller bust (which would make for an even more amusing look in a corset )



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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/26/2015 10:28:19 AM   
MercTech


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A lot of it is the fact that so much clothing is actually made in Asian countries. The patterns they use are not the ones you are accustomed to. Just a suspicion based on what that means in men's clothing.

A 3XLT shirt and the sleeves come half way between the wrist and elbow. I can see some mama-san in the sweatshop saying "not be right. No one have arms that long" and changing the specs. Large isn't "sumo sized" on this side of the pond.

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/27/2015 3:26:04 AM   
MariaB


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Lucy, its still like that in France, unless you clothes shop in the bigger cities. The average size of a French dress is a size 6 (medium) a large is a size 10 (Xlarge) and they generally don't have anything bigger than that. At least the US and the UK now have sizes in fashionable clothing for all sizes.

As for the sizing chart you posted, how do those breast sizes work without cup sizes?

Ivory Pearls, my friend has a 1940s vintage dress that is a size 14 and has a 22 inch waist.

Merc, I agree with you about a lot of cheaper clothing being made to fit the Asian sized men and women. Us Westerners generally have longer arms and legs. Even the French are a very different build to us. A slim man in the UK would look like a big boned bulky man in France. A slim UK woman could rarely be as tiny as a French woman because her skeleton is generally bigger. How can our bodies have evolved to be generally bigger in such a short space of time?

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/27/2015 12:24:49 PM   
TNDommeK


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My problem has always been nothing will ever fit my boobs if it fits my waist, and vice versa.

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RE: Vanity Sizing - 7/27/2015 12:36:13 PM   
RockaRolla


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I once bought two t-shirts from an online shop.

One was a men's size M.
The other was a women's size XL.

Both of them fit me perfectly. In fact, I think the XL shirt is slightly smaller.

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