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RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 9:50:00 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

If it is not open to the general public then it is a different situation...but if it is then it must be open to all under the law...simple. If there is no" by private invitation" then it is a public business.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 21

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 11:02:54 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

These types of threads have been coming and going here of late with the same groups saying the same things over and over. Who’s rights are righter.

I think it is time to look at the problem from a different direction and ask a few basic questions… at least in the United States and other free Democracy’s.

Who determines basic rights? Is it religion or government?

I propose on a basic level it is our Constitution first… the rights spelled out were purposely written to stop religious oppression within a framework of freedom to practice your religion, or not practice any religion, as long as basic rights are guaranteed for all.

Muslim barbers… Christian bakers…etc must decide to abide by the human rights guaranteed by the Constitution and law OR find a profession where they can follow their religion without suppressing the rights of others.

I believe the Constitution quite plainly, and the courts agree, has determined that basic human rights for all are more important then individual rights of a particular religious belief… especially when individuals can follow those beliefs as long as they do not impinge the rights of others.

Otherwise if you do not want to touch a woman’s hair or bake a cake for a gay wedding then find another profession open to the public where you can follow your beliefs without taking away the rights of others to follow their beliefs.

Butch

If only there were another barber in town she could have just gone there.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 22

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 11:05:39 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

These types of threads have been coming and going here of late with the same groups saying the same things over and over. Who’s rights are righter.

I think it is time to look at the problem from a different direction and ask a few basic questions… at least in the United States and other free Democracy’s.

Who determines basic rights? Is it religion or government?

I propose on a basic level it is our Constitution first… the rights spelled out were purposely written to stop religious oppression within a framework of freedom to practice your religion, or not practice any religion, as long as basic rights are guaranteed for all.

Muslim barbers… Christian bakers…etc must decide to abide by the human rights guaranteed by the Constitution and law OR find a profession where they can follow their religion without suppressing the rights of others.

I believe the Constitution quite plainly, and the courts agree, has determined that basic human rights for all are more important then individual rights of a particular religious belief… especially when individuals can follow those beliefs as long as they do not impinge the rights of others.

Otherwise if you do not want to touch a woman’s hair or bake a cake for a gay wedding then find another profession open to the public where you can follow your beliefs without taking away the rights of others to follow their beliefs.

Butch

Again the Soviet solution, deny your religion or you can be in business.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 23

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 11:54:19 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

These types of threads have been coming and going here of late with the same groups saying the same things over and over. Who’s rights are righter.

I think it is time to look at the problem from a different direction and ask a few basic questions… at least in the United States and other free Democracy’s.

Who determines basic rights? Is it religion or government?

I propose on a basic level it is our Constitution first… the rights spelled out were purposely written to stop religious oppression within a framework of freedom to practice your religion, or not practice any religion, as long as basic rights are guaranteed for all.

Muslim barbers… Christian bakers…etc must decide to abide by the human rights guaranteed by the Constitution and law OR find a profession where they can follow their religion without suppressing the rights of others.

I believe the Constitution quite plainly, and the courts agree, has determined that basic human rights for all are more important then individual rights of a particular religious belief… especially when individuals can follow those beliefs as long as they do not impinge the rights of others.

Otherwise if you do not want to touch a woman’s hair or bake a cake for a gay wedding then find another profession open to the public where you can follow your beliefs without taking away the rights of others to follow their beliefs.

Butch

Again the Soviet solution, deny your religion or you can be in business.

What I find strange is not the difference of opinion - that's life.

It's that people feel the need to make a song and a dance over a haircut or a cake.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 24

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 12:32:47 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

These types of threads have been coming and going here of late with the same groups saying the same things over and over. Who’s rights are righter.

I think it is time to look at the problem from a different direction and ask a few basic questions… at least in the United States and other free Democracy’s.

Who determines basic rights? Is it religion or government?

I propose on a basic level it is our Constitution first… the rights spelled out were purposely written to stop religious oppression within a framework of freedom to practice your religion, or not practice any religion, as long as basic rights are guaranteed for all.

Muslim barbers… Christian bakers…etc must decide to abide by the human rights guaranteed by the Constitution and law OR find a profession where they can follow their religion without suppressing the rights of others.

I believe the Constitution quite plainly, and the courts agree, has determined that basic human rights for all are more important then individual rights of a particular religious belief… especially when individuals can follow those beliefs as long as they do not impinge the rights of others.

Otherwise if you do not want to touch a woman’s hair or bake a cake for a gay wedding then find another profession open to the public where you can follow your beliefs without taking away the rights of others to follow their beliefs.

Butch

Again the Soviet solution, deny your religion or you can be in business.

What I find strange is not the difference of opinion - that's life.

It's that people feel the need to make a song and a dance over a haircut or a cake.

Agreed when faced with a business that wants me to spend my money elsewhere I do, problem solved.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 7/27/2015 12:34:05 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 25

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 1:19:59 PM

Moderator3

Posts: 3289
Status: offline

We recently had a rash of threads such as this and they did not go well. When threads are removed, we don't want another cropping up too soon, so please keep this in mind as this topic has been covered to the point of being buried. If this one can stay on track, I will leave it, but I won't always do this. I am making an exception here and hope you all will see that I am trying if you all can.

I'd appreciate it.

_____________________________

FAST REPLY

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 26

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 2:06:08 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

It's that people feel the need to make a song and a dance over a haircut or a cake

Maybe they just want the same rights as you...anything wrong with that? It is not bothering you of course because you are not being denied... would your outlook be different if you were?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 27

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 2:09:09 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

It's that people feel the need to make a song and a dance over a haircut or a cake

Maybe they just want the same rights as you...anything wrong with that? It is not bothering you of course because you are not being denied... would your outlook be different if you were?

Butch

When faced with this I took my business elsewhere. Did I like it? No.
Did I make a federal case out of it no.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 28

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 2:10:24 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Agreed when faced with a business that wants me to spend my money elsewhere I do, problem solved.

On principle Bama... what would you do if it were the only business in town. I can guarantee you there are many towns in out-state Missouri where that would be the case... Do people just do without medicine...clothing and food or other services because they are gay or the wrong religion?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 29

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 2:13:23 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Again the Soviet solution, deny your religion or you can be in business.

No this is America with rights guaranteed under the Constitution, that you so honor when it comes to guns, so if you don't like it find another country...hmmm maybe Iran... I'm sure they will let you practice your religious beliefs at a cost anyway.

Heh... you could be a baker there and not worry about baking a cake for queers... remember they don't have queers there.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/27/2015 2:27:50 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 30

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 2:38:33 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Agreed when faced with a business that wants me to spend my money elsewhere I do, problem solved.

On principle Bama... what would you do if it were the only business in town. I can guarantee you there are many towns in out-state Missouri where that would be the case... Do people just do without medicine...clothing and food or other services because they are gay or the wrong religion?

Butch

We have discussed this before.
Medicine is an essential service.
Getting a hair cut is not.
You need some perspective.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 31

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 2:42:23 PM

RottenJohnny

Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

How would you know? Should I be expected to check out the religious beliefs of my pharmacists... my mechanic... should I find the owner and check out the religious beliefs of the hotel motel I plan to stay at on vacation... maybe the cook at a roadside restaurant?

Wow. It's just not that hard, Butch. Ask a few simple questions before you make your appointments and don't be so offended if someone has a reason for not wanting to do business with you.

quote:

Don't you think there should be a certain guarantee of service of a business open to the general public?

No, not necessarily. But that depends on the service being sold and the company that offers it. Emergency medical care and hair cuts are two entirely different things. Just as shopping at the local "mom-n-pop" store is different from shopping at a national chain like Wal-Mart. You have no entitlement to trade with any specific person just because they own a business.

quote:

I deal with a lot of businesses every day so do you... do you want to spend hours on the net trying to find compatible businesses?

Have you ever heard the phrase "shop around"?

As a consumer, I will do a little homework before I go busting in someone's door demanding service. And I don't get offended when someone won't do business with me. For instance, I've always loved riding roller coasters. But I'm also 6'3" and weigh over 350 lbs. Should I go to a place like Cedar Point and expect that I should be able to ride anything I want just because that's the business they're in? Do you think I should sue them because I can't fit in the fucking seat of any particular ride?

I've owned a few businesses, Butch. If I have concerns about any of my business practices then I put it on a sign and hang it on a wall for everyone to read.

For example:

All sales are final.
No checks accepted.
This facility complies with all state and federal regulations regarding hiring practices.
We reserve the right to deny service to anyone for any reason as allowed by state and federal laws.
No shirt, no shoes, no service.

etc, etc, etc.

All this being said, I also think a responsible business owner should do whatever they can to make their customers happy. But in the event that a barrier is reached, the business owner has every right to simply walk away from the trade.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 32

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 2:42:53 PM

quizzicalkitten

Posts: 312
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Again the Soviet solution, deny your religion or you can be in business.

No this is America with rights guaranteed under the Constitution, that you so honor when it comes to guns, so if you don't like it find another country...hmmm maybe Iran... I'm sure they will let you practice your religious beliefs at a cost anyway.

Heh... you could be a baker there and not worry about baking a cake for queers... remember they don't have queers there.

Butch

That whole freedom to practice my religion is also in the constitution...

You know that First amendment thing,...

It never has and never will kill you to go to someone else to do what ever task, and inconvenience sure... death nope

Theres a difference between I wanna I wanna (girl demanding hair cut) , and I believe if I do this, I will be damning my eternal soul for life. (Guy practicing his religion)

But then I was raised to respect other people even if my opinions differ from them and not be the asshole who forces a cake maker to participate in a wedding they dont believe in, or touch a woman when its forbidden by religious law, or any of the other things the "Ever so tolerable lgbt community does to those who differ in opinion"

Anyone else find it funny, that only the "perpetually oppressed" come up with forcing people to do things they dont want?

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 33

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 2:48:57 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Again the Soviet solution, deny your religion or you can be in business.

No this is America with rights guaranteed under the Constitution, that you so honor when it comes to guns, so if you don't like it find another country...hmmm maybe Iran... I'm sure they will let you practice your religious beliefs at a cost anyway.

Heh... you could be a baker there and not worry about baking a cake for queers... remember they don't have queers there.

Butch

If you have to give up your religion to be in business then your rights aren't guaranteed. Read all of the 1st amendment, that is what I am basing my argument on so your "rebuttal" is irrelevant.

My argument has nothing to do with gays.
Being a Christian is a capital offense in Iran maybe you would be more comfortable than that.

I grew up in Hannibal, I am more familiar with out state Mo than you are.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 7/27/2015 2:52:17 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 34

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 3:00:16 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

What Bama is first in the amendment... read it again... it is the bedrock and because listed first the most important and WHY the recent rulings have been upheld. It means your religious rights do not take president over another and the government will not support any one religion over another when it comes to the rights of its citizens. Just because your religion is against baking for gays or touching women's hair does not mean your religion can deny another... religious or not. But you are free to practice your religion as long as it does not suppress the rights of others...At least in my opinion...and it seems the courts agree with me.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 35

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 3:16:26 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What Bama is first in the amendment... read it again... it is the bedrock and because listed first the most important and WHY the recent rulings have been upheld. It means your religious rights do not take president over another and the government will not support any one religion over another when it comes to the rights of its citizens. Just because your religion is against baking for gays or touching women's hair does not mean your religion can deny another... religious or not. But you are free to practice your religion as long as it does not suppress the rights of others...At least in my opinion...and it seems the courts agree with me.

Butch

Free exercise thereof, doesn't count in Canada, they aren't under the constitution. But making a person do something that violates their religion is interfering with that exercise.

Where in the constitution does it say you can force someone to ignore their religion? That is what you are arguing for.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 7/27/2015 3:17:51 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 36

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 3:25:12 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

It's that people feel the need to make a song and a dance over a haircut or a cake

Maybe they just want the same rights as you...anything wrong with that? It is not bothering you of course because you are not being denied... would your outlook be different if you were?

Butch

No, nothing wrong with that. Just can't see the need to involve the law in a business transaction when the customer could go next door.

As for me, I suppose there are certain golf clubs and the like which would not want my custom, but then that's one of the reasons why that 'sport' doesn't appeal to me. Probably the last bastion of the segregation of women, so the thing's a joke before you even begin to pick up a golf club.

Similarly, if I knew someone who wouldn't serving someone else because the customer is gay, then there's a very good chance they'd lose my custom - instinctively I'd just think the shopkeeper is a bit of an idiot and who would want to do business with an idiot?

But, forcing these people to do business? I don't think so. No one is being denied a cake or a haircut, there are plenty of cake shops and barbers knocking around.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 37

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 3:36:46 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

What I find strange is not the difference of opinion - that's life.

It's that people feel the need to make a song and a dance over a haircut or a cake.

How 'bout a seat at a lunch counter?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 38

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 3:39:10 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Three year old news from the perpetually offended.

What ? .......... I thought CD kept up to date on these things.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 39

RE: Religious Rights Not "Good Enough" to Ref... - 7/27/2015 3:53:10 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

It's that people feel the need to make a song and a dance over a haircut or a cake

Maybe they just want the same rights as you...anything wrong with that? It is not bothering you of course because you are not being denied... would your outlook be different if you were?

Butch

No, nothing wrong with that. Just can't see the need to involve the law in a business transaction when the customer could go next door.

As for me, I suppose there are certain golf clubs and the like which would not want my custom, but then that's one of the reasons why that 'sport' doesn't appeal to me. Probably the last bastion of the segregation of women, so the thing's a joke before you even begin to pick up a golf club.

Similarly, if I knew someone who wouldn't serving someone else because the customer is gay, then there's a very good chance they'd lose my custom - instinctively I'd just think the shopkeeper is a bit of an idiot and who would want to do business with an idiot?

But, forcing these people to do business? I don't think so. No one is being denied a cake or a haircut, there are plenty of cake shops and barbers knocking around.

There you go with that radical thinking again...

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 40

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