joether
Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
quote:
ORIGINAL: joether
And your stringing together a pile of cases to make a justification to kill a police officer legally. I'm pointing out that misusing facts to push a political ideology that is against the rules of law, are not allowable.
No. He's making an entirely reasonable point.
Your not understanding what he is trying to argue.
quote:
ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Realistically, no one is going to attempt to kill a policeman.
Then you.....REALLY.....do not understand the criminal mind set. Never heard of cop killers? Or even that 1986 movie "Robocop"? Go find what happens to Officer Murphy in the first twenty or so minutes of the movie.
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
We have a decent enough relationship with them here, and we don't particularly go in for the 'pigs' line. We appreciate they have a job to do and do it quite well in the main.
Yet, there are people that view police officers as 'jack booted thugs serving an evil government'. And people that view 'the ends justify the means'; if they kill local police, no one will fuck with them! There have been a few militia groups arrested whom had plans and weapons for killing everyone at a police station. Then attacking the funeral procession when there would be many more police officers.
Yes, sane, rational, stable, law-abiding, mature people do not even consider stuff like this. Their police are good people. Some even know them. Or live with one.
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
But, no one is going to let them have the power to haul us off the streets.
Actually the police does have "...power to haul us off the streets.". However they can only do so in selection situations and criteria. This is stuff we have learned over time and through experience. The founding fathers never came up with 95% of this knowledge. Through trial and error. Even through lost.
Ever watch police officers pull someone over? They park their cruiser in such a way so that the suspect's car is more to the right of the road than the cruiser. That way a motorist can not cruise by, and sideswipe the officer on the road. They would hit the cruiser first. Why do they do this? Many examples of police officers being attacked.
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I'm aware of instances here where people have actually tried to arrest the police and take them down the station for questioning because they have over-stepped the mark.
Your including the many more individuals whom are dead for trying this? Particularly using force, because the police officer was making a lawful arrest/stop that the individual was not knowledgeable of?
There is a story of a female officer arresting an officer from another town because he broke traffic laws. Ever since she has gotten threatening phone calls.
Yes, while you technically could arrest a police officer; its VERY dangerous. Better to ask for a supervisor or take the matter to court than to confront the police officer directly.
Trying to use some weird legal string of court cases, like RealOne was doing; will not help your case in court.
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Providing people, including the police, are reasonable then that's not a problem and the way it should be; but once they start arresting people with no just cause then that's a different matter.
Yes, and those people get arrested. If the Prosecutor is good, they'll terminate the arrest and apologize to the victim. If it goes to a court, the judge will terminate the case. Because such a thing opens the town/city/state up to civil damages. An we are not talking just a few hundred bucks either.
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The whole point is that the police are there to uphold the law, and there's nothing worse than hypocrisy.
Look at it from their perspective (which RealOne fails to accomplish): What happens when they loose the public's good will and good faith? The list of 'beheadings', firings, and headaches will drag on for six months easily. The more violent or unconstitutional the situation; the worst it gets. One only needs to look at Ferguson and Baltimore.
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Clearly, in practice killing a police officer will be more often than not a case of murder, but in the event of unlawful arrest you are more than within your rights to resist using reasonable force.
Really? Your now 'Judge, Jury, and Executioner'?
Try it, let me know from your 'life term in jail' how that 'argument' worked for you.....
You kill a police officer you better have some....FUCKING AWESOME EVIDENCE....to back up your story. Like proving God from the Christian religion exists with scientific evidence! Anything less and your going to jail.
Even if you did not kill the police officer, you attacked them. Again, you need to have evidence that is more than 'you said, he said'. Juries tend to side with the police when the defendant's lawyer is trying to state the police officer is wrong.
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Fortunately, we have a very good police force and part of the reason is that they know the rules and they know that we know the rules. The rules being: 'fair and reasonable'.
Really? 'fair and reasonable'? Go ask your local police officers what the ACTUAL RULES they have to abide by. Your going to find your simplistic answer, is just that: simplistic. Naive. Clueless. The rules they have to abide by are numerous, in-depth, complicate, complex. They have to be able to determine an active shooter from a 'kid with a airsoft gun' within a two second delay. They have to know a wide variety of skills. An their behavior is constantly monitored (as is their bank accounts, and friends).
If we were to subject normal citizens to the same criteria as we do police officers; not many citizens could handle the pressure before they broke. If we required firearm owners to the same requirements as our police; there would be a HUGE reduction in accidental shootings and mass shootings. Again, most firearm owners could not handle that sort of pressure to perform.
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Edited to add: once a police officer starts operating outside of his duty, then you're in the realm of self-defence and all that that entails. No different to someone trespassing on your property.
There is a difference between some guy trespassing on your property, and the police doing so; the police might have a reason, but can not state directly to you (for any number of good, rational reasons). You open fire on them; they are allowed to open fire on you. They'll call for backup. If you haven't surrendered by that point, they'll kick in the door, flashbang your ass. Handcuff and drag you off to jail. During your trial, there *will be* individuals that start off 'hang ya high". You/your lawyer has to convince them that your the victim of an unfair event by the police. That person will go into the jury room, and convince them you and your lawyer are both lawless, evil, scumbags; but they'll have to settle with sending just one of those two to prison. Guess which one that will be?
Yeah, police do unlawful things at times. However, there is a way to handle things without escalating the situation. There is no 'one size fits all'. Unless you approach things correctly; your going to jail for a LONG TIME.
Should we worry about 'bad cops' or 'crooked cops' when they do the evil deed? Or through training and then monitoring through many systems? There is no fool-proof system; but those in place seem to do a good job right now.
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RE: Unlawful Arrest - 
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