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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 12:06:22 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirVindico

As I read the following article, I find myself amazed with how the courts overstepped their bounds, yet again!

‘The Ruling Is Wrong’ Says Baker After Losing Appeal Of Wedding Cake Case To Gay Couple

Here is the basis for my argument. The bakery is one private business that is not providing a monopolized vital service. It is not a government agency. It is a single bakery that opted to refuse service, which should be their right. Therefore, this couple cannot prove the denial of anything vital, for I would bet the couple purchased a cake from another bakery. Moreover, I am not lauding or lambasting the actions of the bakery or its business model. I am simply stating that the courts have once again encroached on a private business’s choice of how they choose to run their business, when there are multitudes of other businesses that may provide the same product. In fact, I am quite sure there are bakeries that would welcome this couple with open arms. If not, it seems there is an opportunity for someone to fill the niche. Yet, it seems the court implies that the owner of this bakery is a slave without any choices when it regards the current cause celeb. Additionally, I am viewing this as nothing more than extortion by way of the court system.

It makes me wonder if there was a role reversal, where it is a “gay” bakery, because of their religious beliefs, refuses to make a wedding cake for a heterosexual couple. Would the courts come to the same conclusion? From my perspective, I would think not!



I'm sure there were gay bakeries in the decades before gay marriage was legalize in the United States of America. How many of them refused service, even though their personal religious/political viewpoints were they should have the same right to marry those they love? Very little to any. That these pseudo christians are complaining states a distinct lack of understanding the law and respect for fellow US Citizens.

The business lost on the grounds that it is a public venue. The owner and employees must serve all legitimate customers without discrimination. Which means if you dont like blacks, and blacks walk in to your establishment, your serving them like any other. In the state to which this bakery found itself had laws that applied to those of sexual orientation. Therefore, while the owners of the bakery were christian, their product/service is not. If a heterosexual couple can buy a wedding cake, so can the gay couple. If the bakery or other companies dislike this....

.....tough!

That is the nature of the business world at the moment. If they dislike the prospect of serving gay people, maybe they should close their business down. One's civil rights, in this case, 'freedom of religion' stop, where another's begins. That all persons are equal under the law.



Again the Soviet solution, deny you religion or close your business.


And the Soviets went after gay people just as much as anyone else (dare say, more than others). Oh forgot, you didn't read the full history of things in Russia in school.....


(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 4:36:19 AM   
Lucylastic


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If you would like the decision in PDF form, to actually Understand how it worked. you can download it from here
https://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Court_of_Appeals/Opinion/2015/14CA1351-PD.pdf


heres an article about it from a liberal point of view.
Ive highlighted the specifics from my pov

The Colorado Court of Appeals has ruled 3-0 against Jack Phillips, owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop, for refusing to sell a wedding cake to a same-sex couple. The ruling affirms a 2013 decision from an Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) against the baker.


Many of the Court’s arguments mirror what ALJ Robert Spencer originally wrote. For example, the panel rejected Phillips’ argument that refusing to sell a wedding cake was not discrimination, but a religious refusal to participate in a wedding ceremony. “The United States Supreme Court has recognized that such distinctions are generally inappropriate,” the Court writes, noting that a distinction between sexual orientation and conduct specific to a particular orientation cannot be drawn.

But the panel went further, noting that the recent Supreme Court marriage equality decision lends further credence to the argument that refusing to recognize a same-sex marriage is discrimination. “In Obergefell v. Hodges, the Supreme Court equated laws precluding same-sex marriage to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.”

“In these decisions, the Supreme Court recognized that, in some cases, conduct cannot be divorced from status. This is so when the conduct is so closely correlated with the status that it is engaged in exclusively or predominantly by persons who have that particular status. We conclude that the act of same-sex marriage constitutes such conduct because it is ‘engaged in exclusively or predominantly’ by gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. Masterpiece’s distinction, therefore, is one without a difference. But for their sexual orientation, Craig and Mullins would not have sought to enter into a same-sex marriage, and but for their intent to do so, Masterpiece would not have denied them its services.”

Since Masterpiece admitted it refused to serve the couple because of their intention to marry, it’s reasonable to infer an intent to discriminate because of their sexual orientation. Citing an example proffered in a similar case — “[a] tax on wearing yarmulkes is a tax on Jews” — the Court found that “discrimination on the basis of one’s opposition to same-sex marriage is discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.”

The Court was unmoved by Phillips willingness to sell other baked goods to gay people, because it not does change whether or not he violated the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act (CADA). “Masterpiece’s potential compliance with CADA in this respect does not permit it to refuse services to Craig and Mullins that it otherwise offers to the general public.” Another example offered as a point of comparison was a restaurant that offers the same menu to both men and women, but only lets men order entrees.

Phillips had also claimed that being required to not discriminate implicated his freedoms of speech and religion. This did not convince the panel, who concluded “that the act of designing and selling a wedding cake to all customers free of discrimination does not convey a celebratory message about same-sex weddings likely to be understood by those who view it. We further conclude that, to the extent that the public infers from a Masterpiece wedding cake a message celebrating same-sex marriage, that message is more likely to be attributed to the customer than to Masterpiece.”

Whether the particular message of any specific cake design would implicate First Amendment concerns was irrelevant to the court, because Phillips denied them service before any discussion of the design of the cake took place.

Either way, just because Phillips produces a wedding cake for a same-sex couple, that doesn’t mean he endorses same-sex marriage. “A reasonable observer would understand that Masterpiece’s compliance with the law is not a reflection of its own beliefs.” Indeed, he could even post a disclaimer indicating that he does not approve of conduct protected by CADA, or “otherwise disseminate a message indicating that CADA requires it not to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation and other protected characteristics.” This would disassociate his shop from his customers’ conduct.
As for Phillips’ religious beliefs, the Court found that they were not implicated because CADA is “generally applicable” because “it does not regulate only religiously motivated conduct.”
Likewise, “it does not exempt secular conduct from its reach.” It does have exemptions for religious purposes, but “Masterpiece does not contend that its bakery is primarily used for religious purposes.” In fact, the Court pointed out that the fact that the exemption exists for religious entities “undermines Masterpiece’s contention that the law discriminates against its conduct because of its religious character.”


“Masterpiece remains free to continue espousing its religious beliefs, including its opposition to same-sex marriage,” the Court explains. “However, if it wishes to operate as a public accommodation and conduct business within the State of Colorado, CADA prohibits it from picking and choosing customers based on their sexual orientation.”

The decision notes that if CADA were not law and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation were legal — as it is in many states — the discrimination would have “measurable adverse economic effects.” CADA “prevents the economic and social balkanization prevalent when businesses decide to serve only their own ‘kind,’ and ensures that the goods and services provided by public accommodations are available to all of the state’s citizens.”

The panel’s conclusion was unequivocal: “Masterpiece violated Colorado’s public accommodations law by refusing to create a wedding cake for Craig’s and Mullins’ same-sex wedding celebration.”
Phillips’ is the latest in a fairly consistent line of losses for conservatives arguing that religious liberty should justify anti-LGBT discrimination. These previous rulings, such as against Elane Photography in New Mexico or Sweet Cakes by Melissa in Oregon, actually further informed the Colorado Court’s reasoning.


The Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal organization that has defended many of these wedding vendors, did not immediately state its next steps in Phillips’ case. According to Senior Legal Counsel Jeremy Tedesco, “Jack simply exercised the long-cherished American freedom to decline to use his artistic talents to promote a message with which he disagrees. The court is wrong to deny Jack his fundamental freedoms. We will discuss further legal options.

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 5:03:41 AM   
Real0ne


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The cool thing about discussing the gubblemint is they always shit in their own bed.

A minor is allowed to eat in a restaurant without a gaurdian, order all the foods on the menu but alcohol according to the gubblmint 'religion'.

One state you can buy pot the next state you cant

The pharmacist can only sell you what you have a prescription.

The mommy state religion is religion with no reason other than 'we the state said you cant' is generally blindly accepted, but when an individual does the same as their first amendment right the mommy state stomps all over the individuals rights.


If gays have a right to be free from those who are religious then those who are religious have a right to be free from gays. Instead in america, democracy is being used to force gays onto the religious.

The supreme court, sworn to protect the law, in fact destroys it.

The gubblmint has instituted itself as the dicktator of religion [and everything else imaginable] in america, through commerce.

That said if the State wishes to continue operating as a public accommodation then its courts must stop discriminating on the basis of religion.




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 8/14/2015 5:15:04 AM >


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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 7:45:37 AM   
kdsub


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Yes another victory against bigotry and intolerance.

Butch

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 8:18:05 AM   
Real0ne


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yes lets all cheer for yet another nail in the constitution coffin!

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 8:33:32 AM   
Lucylastic


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Thank god for equality in who you can love and marry. Another step forward for equality.
AT LAST

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 9:11:01 AM   
Real0ne


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yep thats the slogan.

Think about it. Its not about equality. If it was about equality the solution would have promoted a condition where BOTH parties would have been able to exercise their rights. This is not the case and never will be. These court decisions are about creating angst not peace. First gays are abused, now other religions are abused and the courts make billions as the mountain of suits are filed on both sides.





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 10:08:39 AM   
kdsub


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I believe it upholds the Constitution which attempts to guarantee equality by balancing personal freedoms against the rights and freedoms of all. Not an easy task and often messy. When it comes to your rights against mine then what is best for all is the deciding factor even if it requires a judgment, Yes this judgement of the Constitution may infringe on your personal freedoms of thought and religion but as long as it does not deny your personal rights it will not allow you to deny another.

Butch

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 11:37:15 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

I wonder if a bakery could deny to make a cake...for a black-white marriage ?

I recall that once upon a time, all men were created equal...except blacks. I think they were actually codified as 3/5 of equal.

And you know that is not part of anyone's religion, strawman.

The justification for such legalities was often found in religion, so said those doing the codifying.

In this case, the whole idea of religious beliefs, posing as the 'practice' thereof...is the real strawman here. Thus the courts hardly overstepped it bounds here.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 8/14/2015 11:38:02 AM >

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 11:54:11 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

there is no shortage of them


Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (Read More...)

The Bible says that marriage is intended solely between one man and woman, and this is backed up by the verses Genesis 1:27-28, Matthew 19:4-6, and Malachi 2:15.

The first one read: "So God created man in his own image; in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them. And God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds.'"


The second says: "'Haven't you read,' he replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh?' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.'"

Lastly, the verse from Malachi says: "Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union? And what was the one God seeking? Godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth."

God deems homosexuality as a sin, and this is indicated in Romans 1:26-27 which says:
"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

Romans 1:18-18 warns people:
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them."


There are all kinds of "sins" outlined in the Bible, although this is more in the realm of how a "non-sinner" is supposed to act and conduct themselves in the presence of "sinners." As long as the individual baker is not engaging in any of the above "sinful" practices, then they should not be held accountable for something they didn't do.

What they seem to be arguing is that, by baking a cake for a gay wedding, they are being induced to become accessories to the alleged "sin" in question. That's where Scripture might be a bit more unclear. Do they think they're being forced to aid and abet someone else's sin?

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 5:02:28 PM   
cloudboy


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In other news:

A federal judge has ordered the Rowan County clerk, Kim Davis, to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

Ms. Davis was one of a handful of local elected officials nationwide who stopped issuing marriage licenses after the United States Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage in June. She said issuing a license to a gay couple would violate her Christian beliefs and argued that the United States Constitution protected her religious freedoms. Four couples sued her. Judge David Bunning of Federal District Court ruled Wednesday the couples should not be forced to travel to another county to get a marriage licenses and said Ms. Davis should perform her assigned duties.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/13/us/kentucky-clerk-ordered-to-issue-wedding-licenses-to-same-sex-couples.html?mabReward=CTM&action=click&pgtype=Homepage®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine&_r=0

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/14/2015 5:03:29 PM >

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 5:03:19 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirVindico

As I read the following article, I find myself amazed with how the courts overstepped their bounds, yet again!

‘The Ruling Is Wrong’ Says Baker After Losing Appeal Of Wedding Cake Case To Gay Couple

Here is the basis for my argument. The bakery is one private business that is not providing a monopolized vital service. It is not a government agency. It is a single bakery that opted to refuse service, which should be their right. Therefore, this couple cannot prove the denial of anything vital, for I would bet the couple purchased a cake from another bakery. Moreover, I am not lauding or lambasting the actions of the bakery or its business model. I am simply stating that the courts have once again encroached on a private business’s choice of how they choose to run their business, when there are multitudes of other businesses that may provide the same product. In fact, I am quite sure there are bakeries that would welcome this couple with open arms. If not, it seems there is an opportunity for someone to fill the niche. Yet, it seems the court implies that the owner of this bakery is a slave without any choices when it regards the current cause celeb. Additionally, I am viewing this as nothing more than extortion by way of the court system.

It makes me wonder if there was a role reversal, where it is a “gay” bakery, because of their religious beliefs, refuses to make a wedding cake for a heterosexual couple. Would the courts come to the same conclusion? From my perspective, I would think not!



We had a well publicised case over here a few year back. Two gay men tried to book a room at a B&B and the owners turned them away due to their Christian beliefs. The same arguments as on this board ensued: some saying it's a private business to do as they please; others that it is unacceptable discrimination.

The case went to court and the court came down on the side of the two gay men.

There should really be a separation of two different issues.

The first is equality under the law. Meaning, in my view, it is legal to practice your religious beliefs, sexual orientation, whatever else without being deemed to be a criminal.

The second is this cake situation and the one involving the B&B. This is different in that it is an individual dispute between a business owner and a potential customer, and in no way compromises the legality of homosexuality.

It shows how strange this world has become, that we all must be the same and think the same, that a private business owner can't turn someone away because of their opinions.

Is there no room in the world for different ideas and opinions? And that has to mean opinions that you don't like.

Why are these people, and I don't just mean gay cakes, I mean anyone with petty grievances who feel the need to take it to a court of law, and there are plenty of these people around going to court over the next door neighbours dog or something; why exactly do they feel the tax payer, and I believe every case in the small courts costs the British tax payer £667 on average, should fund their petty grievances? This really boils my piss.

Just book a different B&B or a buy a cake from another shop or something.

Over here, the pubs won't let in big groups of lads in certain places. What should we do? Go to court over it?



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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 5:15:03 PM   
JVoV


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Does a b&b demand marriage certificates when providing a room to a straight couple? Or run background checks to see if either is married to someone else? Do they serve bacon or sausage with the 'breakfast' part of the business?

Or are they simply picking and choosing which religious view dictated by their religion they're going to take seriously?

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 5:23:05 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

I wonder if a bakery could deny to make a cake...for a black-white marriage ?

I recall that once upon a time, all men were created equal...except blacks. I think they were actually codified as 3/5 of equal.

And you know that is not part of anyone's religion, strawman.

The justification for such legalities was often found in religion, so said those doing the codifying.

In this case, the whole idea of religious beliefs, posing as the 'practice' thereof...is the real strawman here. Thus the courts hardly overstepped it bounds here.

I noticed that you ignored my utter and complete refutation of your claim that blacks were codified as 3/5 of a person. You continue to push that claim when anyone who knows what they are talking about knows that claim is pure BS. Clearly you think that being gay is a sacred right and religion is a privilege as long as no one objects to it.

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 5:26:30 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

Does a b&b demand marriage certificates when providing a room to a straight couple? Or run background checks to see if either is married to someone else? Do they serve bacon or sausage with the 'breakfast' part of the business?

Or are they simply picking and choosing which religious view dictated by their religion they're going to take seriously?



They made it clear that they didn't want gay men in their B&B, no need for any certificates and the like.

You see, this issue has been resolved. Homosexuality is legal and by and large people have no problem with gay men or women these days.

But, there will always be people who have opinions outside of the norm, and some of those opinions will not be appreciated.

Some will be driven by issues of homosexuality or race and various other things.

People get turned away from businesses for all sorts of reasons, and in my view gay people, or anyone else for that matter, are not special in the sense that they must take what is a minute issue in the grand scheme of life to a court of law because they feel aggrieved.

It's high time people settled down and accepted that while once upon a time gay rights was a worthwhile cause, the battle has been won, and these days we all pretty much have the same opportunities; and when something doesn't go the way of the individual just take it on the chin rather than to a court of law.

The main problem I have with this is the way society is going. It's becoming an attention seeking sham with no principles or backbone; every idiot and his dog going to court over nothing either for attention, money, boredom and God knows what else.




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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 5:52:53 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

How you treat your enemies, particularly when they are weak; shows much about you as a person.



It certainly does.

Respect for people has to come from the heart. Speaking personally, I'll associate with anyone providing they have something interesting to say. I come from a conservative part of England with a masculine culture centred around beer, football and women with women being a poor third in that particular race. Some of my mates I've known since nursery and they remain merrily embroiled in that culture. Were I sat with them in a pub and a transvestite walked in, I'd happily have a chat with the transvestite and couldn't care less what my mates would have to say about it.

That empathy where you treat people all people in the right way, with courtesy and respect, comes from the heart.

Never in my life have I wanted someone to feel uncomfortable, well, apart from the obvious.

You can't force the world to be empathetic and respect all people. It's instinctive.


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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 5:54:53 PM   
JVoV


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So they discriminated against gays. I'm clear on that. The question is, did they discriminate against adulterers or unmarried heterosexual couples that would likely be fornicating in their establishment?

And did the b&b owners go further and not just turn a blind eye on possible sins, but willfully and knowingly lead their patrons into sin by serving them delicious but Biblically boycotted breakfast foods made of pork?

Or were they just fucking hypocrites that didn't adhere to their own religious morals, yet would shove them in other people's lives?

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 6:04:09 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

So they discriminated against gays. I'm clear on that. The question is, did they discriminate against adulterers or unmarried heterosexual couples that would likely be fornicating in their establishment?

And did the b&b owners go further and not just turn a blind eye on possible sins, but willfully and knowingly lead their patrons into sin by serving them delicious but Biblically boycotted breakfast foods made of pork?

Or were they just fucking hypocrites that didn't adhere to their own religious morals, yet would shove them in other people's lives?



You're entirely right.

Their problem was with homosexuality.

That somehow having two gay men fucking in the B&B is a problem in the way that a straight couple fucking in the B&B isn't.

There's a thread farther up the boards about the boy scouts and gay leaders. Now, that's a different situation to me because that's a large organisation promoting the belief that gay men are not worthy and this opinion is being passed onto large numbers of children. I don't believe that children should be taught to be hostile to other people.

This situation with the B&B, and the cake, is entirely different: it's two people having a spat and in no way should it turn into a court action. It's trivial.




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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 6:08:51 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirVindico

As I read the following article, I find myself amazed with how the courts overstepped their bounds, yet again!

‘The Ruling Is Wrong’ Says Baker After Losing Appeal Of Wedding Cake Case To Gay Couple

Here is the basis for my argument. The bakery is one private business that is not providing a monopolized vital service. It is not a government agency. It is a single bakery that opted to refuse service, which should be their right. Therefore, this couple cannot prove the denial of anything vital, for I would bet the couple purchased a cake from another bakery. Moreover, I am not lauding or lambasting the actions of the bakery or its business model. I am simply stating that the courts have once again encroached on a private business’s choice of how they choose to run their business, when there are multitudes of other businesses that may provide the same product. In fact, I am quite sure there are bakeries that would welcome this couple with open arms. If not, it seems there is an opportunity for someone to fill the niche. Yet, it seems the court implies that the owner of this bakery is a slave without any choices when it regards the current cause celeb. Additionally, I am viewing this as nothing more than extortion by way of the court system.

It makes me wonder if there was a role reversal, where it is a “gay” bakery, because of their religious beliefs, refuses to make a wedding cake for a heterosexual couple. Would the courts come to the same conclusion? From my perspective, I would think not!



We had a well publicised case over here a few year back. Two gay men tried to book a room at a B&B and the owners turned them away due to their Christian beliefs. The same arguments as on this board ensued: some saying it's a private business to do as they please; others that it is unacceptable discrimination.

The case went to court and the court came down on the side of the two gay men.

There should really be a separation of two different issues.

The first is equality under the law. Meaning, in my view, it is legal to practice your religious beliefs, sexual orientation, whatever else without being deemed to be a criminal.

The second is this cake situation and the one involving the B&B. This is different in that it is an individual dispute between a business owner and a potential customer, and in no way compromises the legality of homosexuality.

It shows how strange this world has become, that we all must be the same and think the same, that a private business owner can't turn someone away because of their opinions.

Is there no room in the world for different ideas and opinions? And that has to mean opinions that you don't like.

Why are these people, and I don't just mean gay cakes, I mean anyone with petty grievances who feel the need to take it to a court of law, and there are plenty of these people around going to court over the next door neighbours dog or something; why exactly do they feel the tax payer, and I believe every case in the small courts costs the British tax payer £667 on average, should fund their petty grievances? This really boils my piss.

Just book a different B&B or a buy a cake from another shop or something.

Over here, the pubs won't let in big groups of lads in certain places. What should we do? Go to court over it?



There you go, being reasonable again.

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RE: Court Oversteps Its Bounds Again! - 8/14/2015 6:12:25 PM   
Lucylastic


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