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China's EP Problem - 8/19/2015 12:42:50 PM

joether

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I have observed many conservatives and libertarians on here bashing the United States Environmental Protection Agency. An that they believe this organization does more harm to the United States than good. Or (and more likely) they have been told not to like it and just go along with the political agenda. Regardless, thanks to those regulations and inspectors, the country has enjoyed far better of its natural resources than places like Russia and China. China in particular for its perceived 'laissez-faire' business and economic environment by conservatives and libertarians. Yet they often ignore that the freedom from such rules or why those rules are in existence. Ironically they would be the first ones BITCHING about circumstances if it was in their backyard.

Because that is what conservatives and libertarians want in the United States of America. Our water to be foul, air a hazard, the soil the consistency of red mud. How about this 'joyous event' from April of this year?

That is what happens when countries do not have strong EP regulations on a national scale! Would you like MORE of your tax dollars being used to clean up problems that could have been averted before hand if we forced businesses to follow the rules and inspected their operations often? You want the inspections and such without paying for it. Well, tough shit. You dont like the EP, move to China! Dont like China, then dont bitch to much about the EPA in America!

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/3/2015 9:46:33 AM

Thegunnysez

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from your link:

The scary natural phenomenon happened at 2pm on Wednesday in the city in Inner Mongolia. Just 50 minutes later the bright red sky had faded and the sky had returned to normal.

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/3/2015 1:27:52 PM

joether

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
from your link:

The scary natural phenomenon happened at 2pm on Wednesday in the city in Inner Mongolia. Just 50 minutes later the bright red sky had faded and the sky had returned to normal.

Yes, and do you know Mongolia's environmental standards? Here's a hint: About the same if not worst than China.

I used this piece because the media has this story for 'red mud' as a much more recent event with the phenomenon. In the past, China has had some severe toxic slips that resulted in this 'red mud' formation. The process of converting that material to semi-usable soil is extremely expensive. The reason to have the protections on the environment in the first place, is to prevent that sort of costly clean up effort. Businesses, like government, have limited resources. Is it better to spend those resources making the business/country better? Or spending it on environmental clean up efforts because businesses people/politicians were to lazy to be responsible in the first place?

National Geographic did a piece about 10-15 years ago about the 'toxic' background in Russia. Showing many sites and explaining how exactly they were contaminated. I can't imagine Russia has done much on the clean up efforts in that window of time since.

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/3/2015 2:52:55 PM

Thegunnysez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
from your link:

The scary natural phenomenon happened at 2pm on Wednesday in the city in Inner Mongolia. Just 50 minutes later the bright red sky had faded and the sky had returned to normal.

Yes, and do you know Mongolia's environmental standards? Here's a hint: About the same if not worst than China.

The article said it was a natural phenomenon. Which means it has nothing to do with environmental standards.

quote:

I used this piece because the media has this story for 'red mud' as a much more recent event with the phenomenon.

If the old one is natural how would the recent one be not natural?

quote:

In the past, China has had some severe toxic slips that resulted in this 'red mud' formation.

Have you a link to that? Because the article said it was a natural phenomenon, it mentioned nothing about some severe toxic slips.

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/3/2015 10:31:02 PM

joether

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
from your link:

The scary natural phenomenon happened at 2pm on Wednesday in the city in Inner Mongolia. Just 50 minutes later the bright red sky had faded and the sky had returned to normal.

Yes, and do you know Mongolia's environmental standards? Here's a hint: About the same if not worst than China.

The article said it was a natural phenomenon. Which means it has nothing to do with environmental standards.

In retrospect the article may not have been a good example. Oh well, things to learn from, eh?

Though I have seen quite a few images of red mud containment locations being compromised due to faulty engineering. But the amount of red mud generated were in levels might higher than within the United States. Meaning the EPA would virtually destroy a company that had the same amount as see at some of the locations in China!

Red mud is a waste product generated in industrial production of aluminium. Not to be confused with red mud that might be generated from red or reddish clay. It takes a complex chemical process to remove the toxic substances from everything it coats. Its long, its complicated and expensive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
In the past, China has had some severe toxic slips that resulted in this 'red mud' formation.

Have you a link to that? Because the article said it was a natural phenomenon, it mentioned nothing about some severe toxic slips.

Ever look for that one thing in your house that is missing? You swear you have searched everywhere and still can not find it? Yet, its found after you have stopped looking for it? That's where I am at. I know this article exists on the web that shows a great example of the topic. And cant find the damn article....

However...
You could try here....
The chemical components of Red Mud....
While this one is about an event in Hungary....
....It does explain how events took place from the article I read (and still can not find after searching for it) in China. Try not to get bogged down by the environmentalist bullshit. What the author explains of the events are true and factual. I just dislike the way they present how the company dealt with the matter (i.e. unprofessional in journalism).

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/4/2015 8:19:16 AM

Thegunnysez

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When you get around to finding validation for those opinions I will be waiting just as I am waiting for our discussion on Mr. Musk. Take your time and get all of your ducks in a row so that we can discuss it without having to keep going to google.

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/4/2015 8:23:28 AM

Thegunnysez

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quote:

Red mud is a waste product generated in industrial production of aluminium. Not to be confused with red mud that might be generated from red or reddish clay. It takes a complex chemical process to remove the toxic substances from everything it coats. Its long, its complicated and expensive.

You may wish to look up lateritic soil. Some refer to it as "Georgia red clay"

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/5/2015 10:58:27 AM

joether

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
When you get around to finding validation for those opinions I will be waiting just as I am waiting for our discussion on Mr. Musk. Take your time and get all of your ducks in a row so that we can discuss it without having to keep going to google.

What does Mr. Musk have to do with toxic spills of red mud in China? I fail to see the connection here.

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/5/2015 11:01:59 AM

joether

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

Red mud is a waste product generated in industrial production of aluminium. Not to be confused with red mud that might be generated from red or reddish clay. It takes a complex chemical process to remove the toxic substances from everything it coats. Its long, its complicated and expensive.

You may wish to look up lateritic soil. Some refer to it as "Georgia red clay"

Last I checked, Iron (Fe) and Aluminium (Al) are different elements. Therefore what is found in 'Georgia red clay' would be...FAR DIFFERENT....from how red mud is created. In fact, red mud is not naturally occurring, but a by-product (read: waste) from an industrial process.

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/6/2015 11:06:15 AM

Thegunnysez

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quote:

red mud is not naturally occurring, but a by-product (read: waste) from an industrial process.

Cite please

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/6/2015 1:42:17 PM

joether

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

red mud is not naturally occurring, but a by-product (read: waste) from an industrial process.

Cite please

I did cite it in Post #5. But I'll be fair and cite it once more:

2nd Source from Post #5:

"Red mud remains as residue from the processing of bauxite using different methods. The chemical composition of red mud varies widely with respect to the types of bauxite ore and processing parameters. Red mud samples from Guizhou, China, were investigated using a X-ray fluorescence spectroscope, a quadrupole inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometer and a electron probe micro-analyzer. The results showed that red mud consisted of eight main chemical components--CaO, Al(2)O(3), SiO(2), Fe(2)O(3), TiO(2), Na(2)O, K(2)O and MgO--and dozens of trace elements, including natural radioactive elements, such as uranium and thorium. Gamma spectrometric analysis showed that the values of internal exposure index I (Ra) and external exposure index I (γ) of Guizhou red mud were 1.1-2.4 and 2.3-3.5 respectively.

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/6/2015 1:57:17 PM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

red mud is not naturally occurring, but a by-product (read: waste) from an industrial process.

Cite please

I did cite it in Post #5. But I'll be fair and cite it once more:

2nd Source from Post #5:

"Red mud remains as residue from the processing of bauxite using different methods. The chemical composition of red mud varies widely with respect to the types of bauxite ore and processing parameters. Red mud samples from Guizhou, China, were investigated using a X-ray fluorescence spectroscope, a quadrupole inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometer and a electron probe micro-analyzer. The results showed that red mud consisted of eight main chemical components--CaO, Al(2)O(3), SiO(2), Fe(2)O(3), TiO(2), Na(2)O, K(2)O and MgO--and dozens of trace elements, including natural radioactive elements, such as uranium and thorium. Gamma spectrometric analysis showed that the values of internal exposure index I (Ra) and external exposure index I (γ) of Guizhou red mud were 1.1-2.4 and 2.3-3.5 respectively.

I spent 7 years as a chief analyst in a lab and one of my primary tools was X-Ray spectroscopy. The first 8 are clay minerals and relatively harmless. The important stuff is the trace elements. Does the article mention what they are. Cadmium, Lead, Mercury, etc. are harmful in the ppB range. Are they directly mentioned?

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RE: China's EP Problem - 9/7/2015 9:18:23 AM

Thegunnysez

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quote:

I did cite it in Post #5. But I'll be fair and cite it once more:

You are playing a little fast and loose whith that term fair. The article you cite for red clay is discussing the red clay that is derived from the reduction of bauxite to aluminum. They are specifically dissussing it's use as a constitutant of building bricks. The supply of this particular type of red clay is in far south western China, at the site of the aluminum foundry. The city where the dust cloud formed is in extreme north eastern china and as the article clearly stated it is a naturally occuring red clay. This particular sort of natural red clay is called "lateritic". Examples of lateritic soil may be found in "Georgia Red clay". A discussion as to how red clay occurs naturally can be found by a simple google search.

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