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RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/24/2015 6:58:36 PM   
cloudboy


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I was listening to the Radio today, and it was explained that Red States generally ban needle exchanges and some make it a felony to possess a needle without a doctor's permission. Obama lifted a federal ban on needle exchanges, but the Republican House forced him to put the ban back into effect.

The Result? Outbreaks of hepatitis C and HIV in RED STATES. (Republicans know better than public healthy officials about the efficacy of needle exchanges.)

• As the largest HIV/AIDS outbreak in Indiana’s history roils this Hoosier hamlet, it reflects the changing face of the epidemic in the U.S., as a disease that once primarily afflicted gays and minorities in deep-blue cities rises in rural red states.

• Republicans in Congress are unlikely to address that health risk anytime soon.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/red-state-hiv-epidemic-drug-use-republican-governors-118379.html#ixzz3jmvQk0cD


< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/24/2015 7:01:01 PM >
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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 7:20:59 PM   
MercTech


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And promoting injectable drug abuse with money out of taxpayer's pockets is really going to fly with Joe Mainstream, right?
Not a really palatable scenario to most of the country.

Now, lifting the monopoly on access to medical equipment would make more sense. Not requiring a prescription to purchase a new, clean, syringe would be a better start.

Wait, that would mean people would be able to make their own decisions to pave their way into hell. We can't have people making their own wrong decisions. We have to make sure they are dependent on big gubmint.

I guess my snark meter is pegged tonight. But, I do think making syringes available without requiring a hundred buck trip to a doctor for a prescription would take care of a lot of the problem.

Part and parcel of the problem is the hyper inflated charges for medical care. A lot of rural America can't afford prescription medicine and are using cut rate alternatives. It is possible to use veterinary medicines for humans in a lot of cases.

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 8:08:04 PM   
cloudboy


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This is not in my field or wheelhouse, but when the Johns Hopkins School of Public health says the research supports the use of Needle Exchanges, why would I disagree with them? Public policy that ignores expert advice is bad public policy.

My condemnation or personal feelings about drug use, and public moralizations about it, won't stop people from using.

One thing that's childish is: I don't approve of something so I won't do it. (Giving Needles to Drug Addicts.) It takes higher level thinking to get past this -- and an acceptance of things that I disapprove (drug use). -- This is called adulthood.

^^^^ The same goes for contraception. People are going to have sex -- moralizing won't stop them. This is why we need planned parenthood. Poor people cannot afford contraception the way the rich can, and everyone deserves access to birth control.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/25/2015 8:12:05 PM >

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 8:14:40 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

^^^^ The same goes for contraception. People are going to have sex -- moralizing won't stop them. This is why we need planned parenthood. Poor people cannot afford contraception the way the rich can, and everyone deserves access to birth control.

See Planned Parenthood thread.

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 8:40:47 PM   
Thegunnysez


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quote:

y.

Now, lifting the monopoly on access to medical equipment would make more sense. Not requiring a prescription to purchase a new, clean, syringe would be a better start.


I have never had any problem buying new sterile syringes at the pet supply store.

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 8:45:58 PM   
bamabbwsub


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I live in Alabama and can get syringes with needles at Walmart.

ETA: I can also buy them in bundles of 50-100 on Amazon.

< Message edited by bamabbwsub -- 8/25/2015 8:56:33 PM >


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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 8:55:38 PM   
cloudboy


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Have you done so in a Red State wherein possession of hypodermic needles is classifiable as drug paraphernalia and in some cases a felony offense?

To wit:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0893/Sections/0893.147.html

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0893/Sections/0893.145.html

That's just Florida ^^^^ as an example. It is not the reddest of red states.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/25/2015 8:57:20 PM >

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 9:08:02 PM   
bamabbwsub


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Perhaps you should actually read the text:

It is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise deliver hypodermic syringes, needles, or other objects which may be used, are intended for use, or are designed for use in parenterally injecting substances into the human body to any person under 18 years of age, except that hypodermic syringes, needles, or other such objects may be lawfully dispensed to a person under 18 years of age by a licensed practitioner, parent, or legal guardian or by a pharmacist pursuant to a valid prescription for same. Any person who violates the provisions of this paragraph is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

By your reasoning, duct tape, soda bottles, and tubes would also be classified as drug paraphernalia, as they are on the same list as the needles. However, the statute clearly states that the intent must be for controlled substances. Just having one in your possession is not a crime.

< Message edited by bamabbwsub -- 8/25/2015 9:09:30 PM >


_____________________________

"Everyone is normal until you get to know them." - Dave Sim

I rescue animals. My pockets and gas tank are always empty. My home is always hairy and my inbox full of sadness, but my heart is full when seeing those that are saved.

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 9:14:19 PM   
cloudboy


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The statute has several sections. The first section reads:

893.147 Use, possession, manufacture, delivery, transportation, advertisement, or retail sale of drug paraphernalia.—
(1) USE OR POSSESSION OF DRUG PARAPHERNALIA.—It is unlawful for any person to use, or to possess with intent to use, drug paraphernalia:
(a) To plant, propagate, cultivate, grow, harvest, manufacture, compound, convert, produce, process, prepare, test, analyze, pack, repack, store, contain, or conceal a controlled substance in violation of this chapter; or
(b) To inject, ingest, inhale, or otherwise introduce into the human body a controlled substance in violation of this chapter.

----

893.145 “Drug paraphernalia” defined.—The term “drug paraphernalia” means all equipment, products, and materials of any kind which are used, intended for use, or designed for use in planting, propagating, cultivating, growing, harvesting, manufacturing, compounding, converting, producing, processing, preparing, testing, analyzing, packaging, repackaging, storing, containing, concealing, transporting, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance in violation of this chapter or s. 877.111. Drug paraphernalia is deemed to be contraband which shall be subject to civil forfeiture. The term includes, but is not limited to:

(11) Hypodermic syringes, needles, and other objects used, intended for use, or designed for use in parenterally injecting controlled substances into the human body.

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 9:16:37 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bamabbwsub

Just having one in your possession is not a crime.


It is if you use controlled substances or have that "intent."

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 9:22:25 PM   
bamabbwsub


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So a cop is going to arrest you for having a syringe and needle on you, even if there is no other indication of drug paraphernalia? Keep in mind that the onus is on the prosecution to prove "intent," which is extremely difficult to do in the absence of drugs.

Again, other items are on that list as well:
(r) A tank.
(s) A balloon.
(t) A hose or tube.
(u) A 2-liter-type soda bottle.
(v) Duct tape.

I think you are making much ado about nothing with these particular statutes.

< Message edited by bamabbwsub -- 8/25/2015 9:25:24 PM >


_____________________________

"Everyone is normal until you get to know them." - Dave Sim

I rescue animals. My pockets and gas tank are always empty. My home is always hairy and my inbox full of sadness, but my heart is full when seeing those that are saved.

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 9:39:05 PM   
CarpeComa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bamabbwsub

So a cop is going to arrest you for having a syringe and needle on you, even if there is no other indication of drug paraphernalia? Keep in mind that the onus is on the prosecution to prove "intent," which is extremely difficult to do in the absence of drugs.


Most of the time, no. However it is another tool for the police to harass someone if they feel like it. You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 9:40:48 PM   
cloudboy


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You are not connecting the dots. Clean needles are forbidden for recreational drug users. Needles exchanges are prohibited.

So, what has been the end result of this?

(a) Less drug use; or

(b) large HIV/AIDS outbreaks in states with these policies

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/25/2015 10:11:14 PM   
bamabbwsub


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I can't really argue about what the solution should be, as I see both sides.

The statutes that you cited, and the title of this thread, blaming the Red states is misleading at best. Your statement that "Red States generally ban needle exchanges and some make it a felony to possess a needle without a doctor's permission..." was pretty much debunked, since you are pulling one section out of the statute and ignoring the rest. Then you go on to say: "...the Republican House forced [the President] to put the [needle] ban back into effect." How did they do that? It had to be passed by the House first, then the Senate, and could have been vetoed by the President. But Obama signed the Consolidated Appropriations Act in 2011. He had a choice, and he signed it; no one "forced" him to.

If you have a problem with not providing clean needles to drug users, then that seems like a valid discussion. But to try to make this a partisan issue is ridiculous. If you care enough about the issue, then spread the blame to both parties, since both parties signed off on it.

< Message edited by bamabbwsub -- 8/25/2015 10:16:30 PM >


_____________________________

"Everyone is normal until you get to know them." - Dave Sim

I rescue animals. My pockets and gas tank are always empty. My home is always hairy and my inbox full of sadness, but my heart is full when seeing those that are saved.

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/26/2015 1:18:24 AM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
This is not in my field or wheelhouse, but when the Johns Hopkins School of Public health says the research supports the use of Needle Exchanges, why would I disagree with them? Public policy that ignores expert advice is bad public policy.

Johns Hopkins apparently also opposes gender reassignment surgery considering transgenderism a psychological disorder and not a genetic one. Would you agree with that?



< Message edited by RottenJohnny -- 8/26/2015 1:20:09 AM >


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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/26/2015 9:14:52 AM   
cloudboy


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You haven't debunked anything -- you misread the statute and had to be corrected on its reading. Next, Republican House members forced the White House to continue its federal ban on needle exchanges.

This policy of criminalizing needle possession and refusing to provide needle exchanges has now morphed into a public health crisis in IND.

This is an example of Moralizing red states ignoring expert public policy officials.

------

Hey Rotten: Your claim is about one person at JHU, and he's not a part of the JHU health and public policy department. Next, its not just JHU in support of needle exchanges, it a wide group of public health officials.

Morality trumps human reality in RED STATES.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/26/2015 9:16:07 AM >

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/26/2015 10:27:30 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
And promoting injectable drug abuse with money out of taxpayer's pockets is really going to fly with Joe Mainstream, right?
Not a really palatable scenario to most of the country.


This will sound odd and even confusing, but there is a sane logic to it. Drug abusers in some cases....need....the drugs they are abusing. Or at least think/feel they do. That is because some drugs create a mental attachment to chemicals in the body. Some create a physical need. To give a metaphor, its like caffeine addiction. Caffeine is very harmless compared to the drugs these people are taking. Yet, when one doesn't have caffeine for a while, they feel tired, sluggish, and even worn (physically and mentally).

The drugs these individuals are taking are either illegally obtained or being used/created illegally. The needles are perhaps the most legal aspect of this process. Taking the needles away, means they must either hunt down a source of clean needles (i.e. breaking & entering) or risk using a suspected compromised needle.

Republicans do not like healthcare access to the poor or middle class. That much is apparent in all their ramblings on the subject. So it is reasonable to assume they would be against using taxpayer money to help get these drug abusers cleaned up. It takes a substantial amount of money to physically, mentally, and emotion clean up some of these individuals.

So why are the Republicans against both ideas? It's rather, if not insidious. If the abuser does not wish to use a suspected compromised needle, they have to procure some from another source: medical supply locations. Where would one find such needles? Pharmacies, hospitals, local clinics, etc. The bigger the location, the more likely it has security (armed or not). But that 'ma and pa' pharmacy would not have an security guard. So the place gets robbed. How do the poor citizens of these local clinics and pharmacies protect themselves from those evil drug abusers? With GUNS! That's right, the GOP/TP are in bed with the NRA for a reason. An insidious and awful reason; but a reason none the less.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Now, lifting the monopoly on access to medical equipment would make more sense. Not requiring a prescription to purchase a new, clean, syringe would be a better start.


Requiring a prescription to obtain new, fresh needles, allows medical folks to start the process of treatment. The process has to start somewhere; better in a medical treatment room than on the street! When we hear about needles being released to the general public, its not what it sounds. The ones giving the needles are trying to gain 'understanding' with the abusers. To tell them they can come in, get treatment, and maybe try to rebuild their lives. All off the record, without the law enforcement or the courts involved (one of the main fears of drug abusers I would suspect).

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Wait, that would mean people would be able to make their own decisions to pave their way into hell. We can't have people making their own wrong decisions. We have to make sure they are dependent on big gubmint.


Better than big corpies! Since whom are the big corporations answerable to? Certainly not the common US Citizen. However 'big gubmint' *IS answerable to the common US Citizen.

People make their own decisions all the time. One only has to look on the 'Fail Blog' that exist to youtube.com. Yes, we all make bad decisions in life. Some make worst decisions. Which is one (of many) reasons we have government to help these people get back on track in life. Since we clearly know as the situation gets worst, it gets deadlier. For the abusers, their family, and even the common citizen.

Why do you think those 'stand your ground' laws came into existence? The gun industry needs their products sold to make a profit on people whom are afraid of drug abusers attacking them. Their salesman? Why the NRA....

How does the NRA allow that process to take place? Both fueling the fears while keeping laws regarding firearms as 'freely accessible' as possible. Helps when you have convinced a majority of Americans of the corrupted version of the 2nd amendment.

Why force the 'big gubmint' to handle drug abuse, when we, the common citizen can use our guns to 'handle' the problem? 'take the law into our own hands, with our guns'. What could possibility happen that is bad?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
I guess my snark meter is pegged tonight. But, I do think making syringes available without requiring a hundred buck trip to a doctor for a prescription would take care of a lot of the problem.


Actually, drug abuse has gone down in many places. A hundred different reasons I would suspect. In fact, setting circumstances so that medical doctors can see drug abusers, nearly for free, to help start the process; is a 'bad thing' in your viewpoint?

Again, teenagers do dumb things. We were all teenagers once. We either did, or watch someone else do something dumb. And paid the price for that lack of wisdom. As we got older, we did less stupid stuff, and more sophisticated dumb things. Yet, who picks up the pieces? Usually the government. So what if we could design systems, laws, and allow law enforcement/communities better reaction time to these problems? Or to allow pro-active 'involvement' before that person start abusing drugs? In fact, we have done so. From the federal government on down to the SADD organizations in high schools.

The Democrats have the right idea on dealing with this issue on health care. Using government to directly help the poor and middle class in obtaining good quality healthcare without costing them piles of money. Republicans and the Tea Party are against this notion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Part and parcel of the problem is the hyper inflated charges for medical care. A lot of rural America can't afford prescription medicine and are using cut rate alternatives. It is possible to use veterinary medicines for humans in a lot of cases.


Given that cats and dogs are mammals like us humans; some drugs work the same way. This however is not always the case. We test drugs on mice in the labs to identify potential harmful problems. Generally they might go up one step before human trials. Finally releasing to the general public for consumption. The problem is that people think they are medical doctors when it comes to drugs. Since is often how problems start......

One of the goals in the ACA was to allow communities, regardless of size, to have the same access to medical treatment and drugs as the big cities. While it sounds great on paper; in reality there does still seem to be a few hurdles to navigate over. Its one of the areas that needs more work on to be effective. It would take Congress adding material to the ACA; and we all know how much the current 'owners' of Congress like that idea, right?

A decade and more before the ACA, saw small communities dealing with drug abuse simply by catching the offenders and throwing them in jail. This simply shipped the problem to the state level rather than the community. This help create the over crowding of prisons we currently have in America. When those people get out of prison, most are STILL not really treated. Yes, they went through withdrawal and such. However, no one was able to fix them physically, mentally, and emotionally.

That person simply goes through a stressful and anxious period of troubles, POOF, they are drug abusers once more. Once more a problem for the community to handle. Because we failed (as citizens and government) to give these people the tools to handle life's stressers while in prison. To basically build them up to be productive and good members of society. In some cases, we have been successful. Those individuals, while in prison, got treatment in one form or another. After they got out, the community helped them establish their lives. Some even are brave enough to return the favor from the communities and talk to youngsters and adults about the pain and destruction of drug abuse.

Why vote for the GOP/TP whose only understanding of the problem and solution(s) is to bury their head up their own ass and hope it goes away?

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/26/2015 10:30:06 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
This is not in my field or wheelhouse, but when the Johns Hopkins School of Public health says the research supports the use of Needle Exchanges, why would I disagree with them? Public policy that ignores expert advice is bad public policy.

Johns Hopkins apparently also opposes gender reassignment surgery considering transgenderism a psychological disorder and not a genetic one. Would you agree with that?


That would be pretty hard since 'transgender' has *NOT* been a disorder on the medical books for over forty years....

Or maybe you can find the page in the DSM 5 that states otherwise?


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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/26/2015 7:32:04 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
This is not in my field or wheelhouse, but when the Johns Hopkins School of Public health says the research supports the use of Needle Exchanges, why would I disagree with them? Public policy that ignores expert advice is bad public policy.

Johns Hopkins apparently also opposes gender reassignment surgery considering transgenderism a psychological disorder and not a genetic one. Would you agree with that?


That would be pretty hard since 'transgender' has *NOT* been a disorder on the medical books for over forty years....

Or maybe you can find the page in the DSM 5 that states otherwise?

It seems that doesn't really matter to them.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

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RE: RED State Insanity: No Needle Exchanges - 8/26/2015 7:45:38 PM   
epiphiny43


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The hugely lower level of Heroin addiction and associated problems (AIDS, Hep C, etc.) generally in the EU under Harm Reduction policies are all the objective evidence anyone should need. Needle exchange may be the Cheapest of massively effective Public Health policies. Sadly the US suffers a great excess of punitive mentality trying to deal with Any social issue, particularly addictions, other than rich people's, like Rx drugs.

My understanding is few transgender candidates have other than normal genes for their birth gender, but desire opposite gender for complicated internal reasons. Evidence is not very good on the whole issue. We learn more and more influences besides Mendelian gene theory on heredity regularly. Future research couldn't help but illuminate the situation better. If it turns out some legal but toxic food additive is involved, my skepticism about the FDA will be further backed up.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 8/26/2015 7:47:39 PM >

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