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RE: solar power impacts - 8/26/2015 12:59:04 PM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
Status: offline 		For your water heater a foot print the size of two sheets of plywood is sufficient for a family of 4 if you have a couple of hundred gallons of insulated storage. Of course that footprint has to have a proper view of the sun. On the other hand the insulated storage can be anyplace.
Here we have just the opposite issue. Up until a relatively few years ago all the wells in town were hot water so it had to be run through cooling towers.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: solar power impacts - 8/28/2015 7:29:37 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
quote:

I don't think anyone should be forced to invest in solar, to use solar, or forced to include renewables (not just solar) in their mix of production capabilities.

If we are discussing home owners I think incentives are better than force. If we are discussing power plants then since they are govt. monopolies that are created for the good of the users they should be made up of the most productive and environmentally sound products. This can be done simply by mandate.

I don't believe anyone should be forced to use renewables. That includes both home owners, and power plants.

By all means, prove in court, that your energy that you received, came directly from renewable power plants. Since energy, whether generated by fossil, nuclear, solar, or even methane gas burning; is STILL energy. The energy from a nuclear system is the same as fro a hydro-electric. Unless it comes solely from a 'renewable' power source; you'll have an impossible time in court. The court would call up one or more physicists to explain how power is generated. An after that '7th grade science and engineering' class; the court would rule against you.
Since if a power company uses several different sources of energy production; you have to prove, in court, that your energy came ONLY from one source. As I state, in physics, energy is energy. There is not 'nuclear energy', 'fossil fuel energy' or 'solar energy'; there is only energy. And its generated in similar ways to other power producing systems.


Absolutely not what I meant. I'm sure you knew that, though.

Should John and Jane Doe be required to install solar panels, or wind turbines? IMO, absolutely not.

Should Edison be required to have a certain % of their power production from renewable sources? IMO, absolutely not.

I do believe it's a good thing for the general population to add solar or wind power to their property, but I don't believe it should be required.

I also believe it's a good thing for power companies to have renewables within their production portfolios, but, again, I don't believe it should be required. Let customer demands and the Market lead to those decisions.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
quote:

I'd like to put panels and a water heating panel on my garage roof (it has the most space facing the proper direction)

You will get the most bang for your buck with the water heating panel. For hot water it will take a smaller footprint than an equal amount of space dedicated to electricity producing panels.
Do you have any yard space close to the house with the appropriate view? Here insulated storage is the way to get more mileage out of your heater.
Best of luck in your enterprise.

Thanks for the tip and well-wishes. There are trees (some mine, and some belonging to neighbors) that shade much of my yard behind the garage (garage faces N/S, but my property is a rectangle with the long side going E/W), but there is less coverage in the area of the garage (due to the roof being higher than the ground). The garage is detached. I would consider a water heating panel on the roof of the house, but would need a much larger area due to the slope of the roof not being in optimal position.
I've considered a wind power generator, but there is a local zoning restriction on those for lot sizes of less than 3 acres (I have 2), and am still not sure if I'd rather go with horizontal axis or vertical axis. I like the idea of VAWTs, but still undecided. Plus, neither solar, nor wind power are high on my list. Geothermal is higher, even. lol

When most of the homes in America were built (pre-WW2 to about 20 years ago); the creation of solar power usage at the individual unit level, was never considered. Nor for most other forms of power generation. It was assumed by all (ok, the grand majority of sane people), that everyone would use power from the power company (whom was regulated). In the past twenty years, things have changed.

So it would take changes to legal books and opinion to make useful changes. You might not be able to make many changes to your house. Have you considered 'co-oping' with neighbors/town to create a solar panel system to which feeds power to each contributing member? Everyone divides up the cost to create and maintain the system; but also generate an equal amount of power. I have heard it done in several communities across the nation. From what I can tell, it does bring neighbors closer together as a community.


I have never considered that, but I don't have funds to add to that pot, at the moment, either. Trust me, if I won the lottery, as soon as I had my first distribution check, I'm moving off this property while the house is demolished and rebuilt, with renewables (geothermal HVAC, graywater recovery system, solar, etc.) being involved.

A $275 fee to be allowed to go before the Zoning Commission and ask for a variance to put up a wind turbine (no refund if request is denied) is pretty expensive (subjective determination based on my fiscal position), so that's a backburner issue, too.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: solar power impacts - 8/28/2015 7:33:41 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
For your water heater a foot print the size of two sheets of plywood is sufficient for a family of 4 if you have a couple of hundred gallons of insulated storage. Of course that footprint has to have a proper view of the sun. On the other hand the insulated storage can be anyplace.
Here we have just the opposite issue. Up until a relatively few years ago all the wells in town were hot water so it had to be run through cooling towers.


I don't know the exact pitch of my roof, but it's not steep, and it faces East. That's not optimal positioning for a solar installation. With the garage being detached, I'm not real keen on the idea of having the installation there and piping it into the house, but the garage does face N/S...


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Thegunnysez)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: solar power impacts - 8/30/2015 1:14:46 PM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
Status: offline 		I do not know what the run is from your garage to your house. Insulation is way cheaper than pipe. Greywater irrigation is not a difficult thing to add to your home and it is not the sort of thing I would recomend one contact the authorities about how to hook up. For the electrical solar pannels you might consider mounting them on the ridge of your roof and making them track. The newer solar pannels are generating on the order of 10-15 watts per sq.ft. Used ones are on line for less than a dollar a watt.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: solar power impacts - 8/31/2015 2:39:02 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
I do not know what the run is from your garage to your house. Insulation is way cheaper than pipe. Greywater irrigation is not a difficult thing to add to your home and it is not the sort of thing I would recomend one contact the authorities about how to hook up. For the electrical solar pannels you might consider mounting them on the ridge of your roof and making them track. The newer solar pannels are generating on the order of 10-15 watts per sq.ft. Used ones are on line for less than a dollar a watt.


I don't know how much a greywater recovery system would impact my septic system. If I were on a sewer, I wouldn't care about the impact, but I'm not. Might be an interesting thing, though, to add when they eventually add sewers to my area (I'm not far from current city sewers, and I'm sure expansion plans are already being mapped out).

If the heated water line is run from the garage to the house, it would have to be buried, and I'm sure there are rules and regulations that would require piping/conduit.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Thegunnysez)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: solar power impacts - 8/31/2015 6:40:24 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Huge difference in solar hot water heating and solar electrical generation.

Solar hot water:
Roof mounted box filled with black gravel and a glass top. (black manta grid, volcanic rock, etc)
Run two lines to hot water heater. (small diameter is fine)
Use small pump to recirculate hot water heater fluids through roof box.
Control circuit for pump can be either an electric eye to switch pump on when sunlight is seen at the box or a 12v pump and a solar panel so the pump only runs when the sun is high.
Routine maintenance is to clean off the glass periodically and flush some bleach through the box to clear out any mold growth.
Simple systems that many put in when I lived in Florida. It cuts down the cost of water heating without a huge cost. (In 1978 you could buy the kit and have installed for $150. Probably $500 today)

Solar power generation
> On average it never generates as much power as it takes to make the solar panels. (17 years at rated capacity to break even on power but the median full capacity life is 5 years - 2005 numbers from SMUD)
> Wet cell power storage is expensive, requires weekly maintenance, dangerous, and takes up a lot of space if you are talking a replacement for 200 amp 110v domestic power service. Most who go off the grid with sola
r and wind turbines are using an array of surplus submarine batteries.

Greywater/Blackwater separation is a good idea but not covered by building codes in many places. If you are out of an incorporated area; you can probably get a variance from county government and health department but that depends on where you are.
Up side:
> getting use out of grey water rather than dump it with septic.
> soap makes good fertilizer
Down side
> Grey water irrigation can smell "funky" (soap making good fertilizer means it fertilizes microscopic algae, slime mold, etc)
> Increases the nitrites and nitrates in surface water.
The grey water systems I've actually seen in operation were based on a buried tank for the grey water with a pump from there on a timer directed to irrigation systems. The tank had an overflow to the blackwater septic system. (Note: All irrigation at Pearl Harbor Naval Station is recycled grey water.)
Also, grey water is grand for doing an artificial wetland. Kind of like a koi pond but you are raising water chestnuts, cress, and cattails or even rice for the larder. After cycling through an artificial wetland; the water can be run through a sand filter and used as potable water.
Irrigation piping and the tank should be buried below the frost line for the area. (In Mississippi it is 18 inches. Where I am in Canada right now; it is one meter.)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: solar power impacts - 8/31/2015 7:59:13 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Home Heating

some people use a variant of the solar water system for heating the home in the winter. Putting a box in the window and circulating hot water through pipes in the house. Depending on how elaborate, not all that costly to operate and is a closed system.

some people use geo/thermal heating/cooling systems.

they plant clay sewer lines in the ground with the openings in the house. Then a small fan blows air through the pipes. Problem is that you have to find the proper temp in the ground that is constant all year round and then digh the holes, etc.

Added. My son uses a setteling tank on his grey water irrigation before the water goes out. Helps cut down on rags (lent, strings, etc from clothing and the paper we put in our pockets.).

< Message edited by KenDckey -- 8/31/2015 8:37:35 PM >

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: solar power impacts - 9/1/2015 7:37:30 AM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
Status: offline
quote:

I don't know how much a greywater recovery system would impact my septic system.


Your septic system expells excess water into the leach field. The use of all of your grey water for irrigation would have no significant impact on the septic system. Better yet install a composting toilet and be done with the whole septic system.


quote:

If I were on a sewer, I wouldn't care about the impact, but I'm not. Might be an interesting thing, though, to add when they eventually add sewers to my area (I'm not far from current city sewers, and I'm sure expansion plans are already being mapped out).


In that case, absolutely.

quote:

If the heated water line is run from the garage to the house, it would have to be buried, and I'm sure there are rules and regulations that would require piping/conduit.


Given your latitude the hot water line would have to be burried below the frost line and of course well insulated.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: solar power impacts - 9/1/2015 6:10:02 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Home Heating
some people use a variant of the solar water system for heating the home in the winter. Putting a box in the window and circulating hot water through pipes in the house. Depending on how elaborate, not all that costly to operate and is a closed system.


The only south facing windows I have are blocked by trees (no leaves in the winter, but plenty of branches to reduce the effectiveness).

quote:

some people use geo/thermal heating/cooling systems.
they plant clay sewer lines in the ground with the openings in the house. Then a small fan blows air through the pipes. Problem is that you have to find the proper temp in the ground that is constant all year round and then digh the holes, etc.


The system I want would be a closed horizontal looped system. If I could find my old well line and could use that, I might be able to use an open vertical looped system (drilling costs usually make horizontal systems less expensive than vertical). Inside the house would be some sort of heat exchanger for air condition control, and/or a separate water tank with a heat exchange set up before the water heater.

To be honest, though, the main thing I was looking to use the solar heater for was to heat a non-freezing liquid in the winter and then pump it through the lines to effect a "under-driveway" heating system so I don't have to clear my driveway. :o)

quote:

Added. My son uses a setteling tank on his grey water irrigation before the water goes out. Helps cut down on rags (lent, strings, etc from clothing and the paper we put in our pockets.).


I can see how that would help.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: solar power impacts - 9/2/2015 12:41:09 AM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
. . .
Solar power generation
> On average it never generates as much power as it takes to make the solar panels. (17 years at rated capacity to break even on power but the median full capacity life is 5 years - 2005 numbers from SMUD)
. . .


This WAS wrong and now is either disingenuous or a total misunderstanding of economics. And using 2005 numbers for a technology whose basic cost has been in free fall from before the date is a clear statement of an agenda, which isn't Truth. From 2009 to 2014, solar fell in price by 75%, making it comparable to coal.
Electricity at industrial rates has always been priced. Photovoltaic cell production competes in the same market. Nobody sells for less than it costs. Nobody buys for less than expected income.
For comprehensive analysis of "Cost of electricity by source", the so named Wikipedia article describes the method (LCOE, Levelized Cost Of Energy, one method of estimating total direct lifetime costs of generation methods, a proxy for what price must be seen to break even over the lifetime of a system) and the numbers now for each energy option and the future given the listed assumptions.
At the most basic level, wind energy costs are declining, solar costs are almost in free fall with no obvious bottoming limit, fossil sourced power is increasingly expensive at both extraction and clean generation levels and expected to accelerate dramatically as non-direct costs such as environmental and climate costs are increasingly directed to the price consumers pay (Carbon credits) instead of denied to exist or carried by the general taxpayer, thus making power generation's total costs be reflected in market forces. Exactly the opposite of traditional fossil carbon energy source's attempts to tax renewable energy back to non-competitiveness.

Like it or not, the future is renewable and new technology power production, likely of distributed generation by small sources and a number of different technologies. Economics of the situation are compelling. Government policy may accelerate our long delayed move (The Bush admins took direct action to defund nationally vital power generation research threatening traditional Big Oil's dominance.) or yet again delay it. Given all reasonably educated people are now aware our culture and civilization is in a race of appropriate technology against climate change, population growth and environmental degradation for it's very survival, cross your fingers Solar tech and similarly disruptive renewable technologies advance faster then expected.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: solar power impacts - 9/3/2015 5:37:49 AM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
Status: offline
quote:



Should Edison be required to have a certain % of their power production from renewable sources? IMO, absolutely not.


Edison is controlled by the PUC and they most definitely can tell Edison what to do.

quote:

I also believe it's a good thing for power companies to have renewables within their production portfolios, but, again, I don't believe it should be required. Let customer demands and the Market lead to those decisions.


How would market demand be able to distinguish between renewables and non renewables?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 31
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