Why pay union dues? (Full Version)

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KenDckey -> Why pay union dues? (8/29/2015 6:23:30 PM)

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf

Using the above BLM figures plus an assumed 35% (equal on both sides union/non-union) for fed, state and local taxes we can look at wages

Non-Union worker makes makes a median (nationally) of $763 - his 35% tax leaves him with $496

A union worker makes a median (nationally) of $970 - his 35% taxes and - his 11.1% dues is $523 a month.

To me this equeates to paying someone to be my political mouthpiece for $23 a month. Just doesn't seem right to me.

And for those doubters, I was a shop steward because the union by-laws stated that only the board of directors had say in anything the union did and I wanted it changed.




sloguy02246 -> RE: Why pay union dues? (8/29/2015 7:13:42 PM)

The "11.1%" in the article refers to the percent of workers in unions, not the percent of wages paid for union dues.

Last time I was involved in such things, union dues were equal to 2 hours pay per month - not a flat percent of overall pay and certainly not paid every week.




KenDckey -> RE: Why pay union dues? (8/29/2015 7:30:55 PM)

that is quite possible slo I read it as percent of income but can see how it could be read as percentage of population.

seems my union dues were more like 8% of before taxes pay. that is part of the reason that the number made sense to me.




MercTech -> RE: Why pay union dues? (8/30/2015 12:49:18 PM)

A> Union can be the organized crooks you have to bribe in order to keep your job.
B> A Union can be a center for training and upgrade of skill and an assist for finding work for members.
C> A Union can be a clique run good old boy's club that only does something for the rest of the members when contract negotiations are due.

I've been members of all three types of locals over the years.




KenDckey -> RE: Why pay union dues? (8/30/2015 1:35:35 PM)

I have gotten in trouble with both sides of the table. I, in my capacity as a safety officer, was called to the table. The union asked if I knew of any instances of management retalliation. I didn't lie and said I did, but since I had dealt with it myself and it was never repeated I refused to give up the name of the manager.

Once the union violated it's own contract in an effort to compete with a civilian non-union company. Union didn't like my views on that one.

But, overall, I was respected because I never wrote up an individual and worked to correct wrong, not punish people.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why pay union dues? (8/30/2015 2:13:09 PM)

It is my understanding that union dues also go for retirement (401K money and the union can positively effect or totally control 401K program management) and contribute to a strike fund to pay members for extended strike time.

I know for a fact the the musicians union takes a portion of or in some cases, all royalties to fund musician's retirement. My teacher played for the Detroit Symphony for 35 years. [It] recorded on the old Mercury label. The union took all of the royalties.

He got a small city retirement, a small musicians union retirement and combined health benefits. (also a small soc. sec check)




KenDckey -> RE: Why pay union dues? (8/30/2015 3:14:26 PM)

Union dues go toward many things. The list is not all inclusive

- national labor affiliations such as the aflcio
- retirement (not always mine didn't)
- healthcare (mine didn't do that either)
- negotiations
- representation (members and fair share)
- parties
- retreats
- political contributions.




Thegunnysez -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/1/2015 8:09:54 AM)

I would imagine that someone pays union dues to belong to a club that will protect their interests in the labor field they have chosen.




KenDckey -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/1/2015 12:43:20 PM)

Depends on both the contract and the state, but belonging to the union is a condition of being allowed to work, regardless of knowledge or experience.




joether -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/1/2015 12:56:47 PM)

Is this another 'We, conservatives, hate Unions because they have done so much good for the American people since their inception' thread?







tj444 -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/1/2015 1:30:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Is this another 'We, conservatives, hate Unions because they have done so much good for the American people since their inception' thread?

In the past, Unions have served a purpose in getting kids out of the coal mines, getting workers decent working conditions and wages however they hit a "wall" where they cease to provide ongoing benefits.. My experience was as a kid working at the Post Office (in Canada) and the union telling the membership/workers to go out on strike.. I remember one time we were out for 6 or 8 weeks (no pay!) and the union "won us" some measily 18 cent/hr raise.. like, wtf? Yeah, that did not leave me with a warm fuzzy feeling for unions..




joether -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/1/2015 1:53:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Is this another 'We, conservatives, hate Unions because they have done so much good for the American people since their inception' thread?

In the past, Unions have served a purpose in getting kids out of the coal mines, getting workers decent working conditions and wages however they hit a "wall" where they cease to provide ongoing benefits.. My experience was as a kid working at the Post Office (in Canada) and the union telling the membership/workers to go out on strike.. I remember one time we were out for 6 or 8 weeks (no pay!) and the union "won us" some measily 18 cent/hr raise.. like, wtf? Yeah, that did not leave me with a warm fuzzy feeling for unions..


So because there is one instance in which you dislike what the Union did; therefore we should scrap the whole concept?





KenDckey -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/1/2015 5:18:01 PM)

I dislike unions because they want to run government. I believe that governmental employees work at the will and whim of the people, not the union.




Thegunnysez -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/1/2015 5:35:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I dislike unions because they want to run government.


cite please



quote:

I believe that governmental employees work at the will and whim of the people, not the union.


Because government employees used to work at the whim and the will of the people civil service was created which did away with the spoils system.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/1/2015 6:20:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Depends on both the contract and the state, but belonging to the union is a condition of being allowed to work, regardless of knowledge or experience.

.....except in a Right-to-Work state. There are 25 such states.




epiphiny43 -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/1/2015 11:30:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
. . . I believe that governmental employees work at the will and whim of the people, not the union.

This isn't a Civics class where children are quoting from prepared material, we are taking about reality in the USA. Direct democracy stopped with the Town Meetings of the pioneer years, it's been a representative republic since the Revolution, at both state and federal levels. Thank whomever! No system is as subject to abuse and oppression as direct majority rule. Even the Greeks abandoned it.
Of course, our recent history well illustrates Churchill's observation that Democracy (as practiced in the 20th Century, not small d democracy) is the worst form of government, except for all others that have been tried.
As to unions controlling who works or doesn't, maybe get out of the house occasionally? Construction unions and some professions work like medieval guilds. Entry fees, apprenticeships, oligarchic entry favoritism, limited numbers, etc. Public employee unions neither hire nor fire. They do work to remarkable ends to keep any member FROM being fired, not at all what your point seems to be trying to get people to believe.
Where unions have historically organized to bring wages to a living standard, benefits that provide affordable health care, actual vacation time and a retirement rather than the poor house, at Considerable group expense, effort and sacrifice by many, they understandably dislike people collecting all the benefits and refusing to pay any organizing costs. Setting wages and benefits for non-union dues payers at pre-union levels seems a bit harsh, and could cause upset? Those not happy with the union could form their own?

Issues of people disliking their dues going to support political candidates who the union sees as friendly is a problem for people that can't see where their bread is buttered everywhere. Wage slaves that vote for puppets of Wall Street are all over Red states. Magnificent propaganda!
Not saying unions are any paragon of virtue, those seeking power everywhere lean to abusing it at most opportunities, left or right. My impression of adult life is summed up well by the graffiti, "Abuse of power comes as no surprise." Political life everywhere is little more than competition between abusers of power.

All bureaucracies suffer from the Peter Principle ("managers rise to the level of their incompetence.") but the emphasis on protecting members no matter what that permeates public worker unions raises it to a socially destructive level difficult to imagine urban civilization surviving. Our future challenges are too great to continue with incompetence being not just the norm, but expected and encouraged.
Our State is in eminent danger of losing several hundreds of millions of dollars in approved Federal grants because no one in the relevant agencies has the competence to do the qualifying studies and presentations before the time limit for such has past. Folks are upset! As usual, nobody fired yet I've heard of.




thishereboi -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/2/2015 5:28:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Is this another 'We, conservatives, hate Unions because they have done so much good for the American people since their inception' thread?






that or another "We, liberals, love unions because even though they have outlived their usefulness, we don't know how to negotiate our own salaries and need big brother to do it for us" threads.




KenDckey -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/2/2015 5:51:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
. . . I believe that governmental employees work at the will and whim of the people, not the union.

This isn't a Civics class where children are quoting from prepared material, we are taking about reality in the USA. Direct democracy stopped with the Town Meetings of the pioneer years, it's been a representative republic since the Revolution, at both state and federal levels. Thank whomever! No system is as subject to abuse and oppression as direct majority rule. Even the Greeks abandoned it.
Of course, our recent history well illustrates Churchill's observation that Democracy (as practiced in the 20th Century, not small d democracy) is the worst form of government, except for all others that have been tried.
As to unions controlling who works or doesn't, maybe get out of the house occasionally? Construction unions and some professions work like medieval guilds. Entry fees, apprenticeships, oligarchic entry favoritism, limited numbers, etc. Public employee unions neither hire nor fire. They do work to remarkable ends to keep any member FROM being fired, not at all what your point seems to be trying to get people to believe.
Where unions have historically organized to bring wages to a living standard, benefits that provide affordable health care, actual vacation time and a retirement rather than the poor house, at Considerable group expense, effort and sacrifice by many, they understandably dislike people collecting all the benefits and refusing to pay any organizing costs. Setting wages and benefits for non-union dues payers at pre-union levels seems a bit harsh, and could cause upset? Those not happy with the union could form their own?

Issues of people disliking their dues going to support political candidates who the union sees as friendly is a problem for people that can't see where their bread is buttered everywhere. Wage slaves that vote for puppets of Wall Street are all over Red states. Magnificent propaganda!
Not saying unions are any paragon of virtue, those seeking power everywhere lean to abusing it at most opportunities, left or right. My impression of adult life is summed up well by the graffiti, "Abuse of power comes as no surprise." Political life everywhere is little more than competition between abusers of power.

All bureaucracies suffer from the Peter Principle ("managers rise to the level of their incompetence.") but the emphasis on protecting members no matter what that permeates public worker unions raises it to a socially destructive level difficult to imagine urban civilization surviving. Our future challenges are too great to continue with incompetence being not just the norm, but expected and encouraged.
Our State is in eminent danger of losing several hundreds of millions of dollars in approved Federal grants because no one in the relevant agencies has the competence to do the qualifying studies and presentations before the time limit for such has past. Folks are upset! As usual, nobody fired yet I've heard of.

Not a civis lesson. It is a quote by my father (don't know where he got it), a fine Democrat that was a government worker that spent 27 years on probation out of his 35 years service. He, as far as I know, never voted for a Republican. He was an organizer, and whenever the City started something new they would put him back on probation to organize it, at least until they hired an expert in the field. He hated the fact that his 2 children were both Republicans. Before my sister got ill and we had to move to town, he was a cowboy who rode the range doing his job. Used to say that if our neighbor had a little bacon and we had some beans, we would have beans for supper. That sir is reality.




Thegunnysez -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/2/2015 6:59:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

that or another "We, liberals, love unions because even though they have outlived their usefulness,



Why do you feel that unions have outlived their usefulness?

quote:

we don't know how to negotiate our own salaries and need big brother to do it for us" threads.


Are you saying that the union is "big brother"?




KenDckey -> RE: Why pay union dues? (9/2/2015 7:41:26 AM)

Gunny

Although I am more or less ant-union, they have their place in society. An example of where a union would have been nice, not-American, was when I was stationed in Africa. Port regulations required longshoremen and stevedores could not leave the ship being dischrged until the job was completed 100%. It was and is a bulk break port not deep enough for a container ship. The cranes were 5 ton max capacity each. Built by the Italians to support their ends of imperialism, they are still in use. It could take days to discharge a bulk break ship. Not an easy chore. Except for the US military's forklifts, everything was done by hand. A place ripe for a union.

However, when unions become all powerful then they need to go. It is a fine line.




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